Buying a buffer zone around my property

[Anonymous-0]

Just got to thinking today...

I'm about 60 miles west of Chicago. The suburbs are getting closer every year. I've got a farmette on a little 8-acre plot.

How hard would it be to add a few acres of "buffer zone" around my property? One old-timer owns all the land to the East and Nouth of me. If he decided to sell his land, could he easily sell me just a couple of acres that border my current property?

 

[Christos]

Its as easy as you enjoying the view and making an offer for it.

Christos

 

[Anonymous-0]

It might be easy and cheap, or it might be very expensive and just about impossible.

You might have a problem with zoning or other property regulations. In my area, the smallest parcel that they will allow building on is 10 acres, so an owner would not want to leave himself with less than that size of remaining property, because it would not be worth nearly as much as if it could be a building site.

You might be shocked at how much taxes might go up for both the seller and buyer. Years ago, my Dad's next door neighbor about 300 feet away, built a new barn without doing a survey first. My Dad thought the barn was awfully close to the property line, and told his neighbor. But the neighbor built the barn there anyway. When my Dad had the property surveyed a couple of years later, it was determined that the barn was over 1/3 on our land. My Dad, being a nice guy, agreed to sell a strip of land to the neighbor so the barn would all be on his land for $1000 and all of the transfer fees. It only amounted to a little over 1 acre, but then the assessor decided that both properties were worth a whole lot more than they had been before. My Dad's taxes doubled the next year, and both he and the neighbor ended up having to hire attorneys to get the mess straightened out and doing that took more than 2 more years. It would have been cheaper to have GIVEN the neighbor the strip of property.

And the current owner might not want to sell the land at virtually any price, or might not want to subdivide the property, at least like you would like him to. And there is no way that I know of that you could make him do so.

I think if I wanted to buy some of my neighbor's undeveloped property, I would begin by getting to know that neighbor to gain a "feel" for how he thinks of his land and maybe what he is planning to do over the next number of years. At some point, I might let him know that I would like to increase the size of my property, somehow, and maybe he might offer to sell you some land. It could be that the guy is thinking about retiring and is wondering about what to do with his property. Or he could be planning to just live there until he dies...and would not consider doing anything different than he always has. Tact and diplomacy can go a long way. And sometimes, the only thing that will work is the long green.

It might help to have some idea of how much similar property has sold for recently in your area. In my area, land is worth several times it was 10 years ago, and about 10 times what it was when I bought it 30 years ago. I really don't want to sell my land, but if someone came along and offered me $20K/acre, I would sure have to think hard about selling my extra property.

Good luck! Having some privacy is sure nice. As it is, no one can build any closer than they now are, because I own all the land around my building site. But it comes at a price--my property taxes are high!

 

[1936]

DeKalb, County? What you have is what most want who are moving into your area a house and some acres. Land and old timers don't sell farm land. Any more zoning is getting hairy even in the corn fields of IL. About the only quick answer is to sell and move up to larger sized acreage on west of you to hold your money together.

 

[VaTom]

We too have strict zoning but moving a property line, without creating a new parcel, works fine. So long as the reduced parcel doesn't violate zoning.

Creating a new (buildable) parcel for you to buy, if that's an option, is always your best investment.

Another possibility is right-of-first-refusal. To be worth much needs to be recorded with the deed but would give you the option of matching any offer your neighbor got. Only works on an existing parcel of course.

I've had two neighbors interested in enlarging their parcels, from mine. Always happy to talk, but it won't be cheap. Like anything else, depends on how badly one party wants to buy and the other wants to sell.

Good luck.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Wouldn't be any problem, if you got enough money. Need to have survey, which is getting expensive. Also it appears you will be looking for some frontage which if sold could have a big impact on how much the remainder is worth. For example, if sold for housing the developer might be able to squeeze in another $80K lot on that frontage without much additional cost. We were in somewhat of a similar situation. We wanted to sell off a portion (roughly 30%) with some frontage at a pretty good price. However a little research showed that the remainder would be worth less than half it's potential value, and it was by far the largest piece. If you can buy it for a decent price consider yourself lucky, maybe not quite in the same league as Crackerhead, but non-the-less, lucky. Just don't be surprised or angry if you find he doesn't want to sell, or is asking a small fortune

 

[Anonymous-0]

Thanks for the replys, gents.

Yup, it's out in lovely DeKalb County. The folks moved out here to this great little 8-acre parcel in the late 70's. I know a lot of folks on this board lost their shirt when the bottom fell out in the late 70's and early 80's, but on the bright side it gave a city-boy like my Dad a chance to live out a dream and move out to the country to raise a family.

The fella that owns the land on my East and North has been farming it since I was a little kid. And he looked pretty dang old then. Sounds like maybe it wouldn't hurt to drop in on him and let him know that if he's ever interested in selling, I'm interested in buying. Diplomatically, of course. I've tried to drop in on him in the past, but I can never seem to find him at home. He farmed it up until 6 or 7 years ago, but now he rents it out.

Sounds like I need to do some research, too. See if it would be a matter of extending the property lines, or adding on a new parcel to the exsisting property, or what. Property taxes could be a huge mess, too. I'd hate for my purchase of a couple of acres to end up driving up my property taxes into the stratosphere.

Who do I talk to to get answers to questions like is it extending the property line or is it adding on a new parcel? Do I need to talk to a lawyer, talk to the county assesors office, or what?

Bottom line, growing up in out in the midst of the cornfields was great for me and my brothers and sisters. Now that we're all grown up and moved out, I can see the family farm being a great place to get together on the weekends and holidays, especially when there starts to be lots of grandkids and such running around.

But the best thing about growing up out here was the wide-open spaces around. I'd hate to come home one Christmas to find that my view out the front window now includes some newly-built plywood McMansion.

Last big chunks of land that got sold around here went for about 10 grand an acre or so. That was a year ago or so.

 

[paul]

Most farm land likes to sell in the big chuncks it is now in.

Split off a few acres, and you likely would need to pay _dearly_ for that.

Can be done for sure, but.....

A neighboring farm was sold off as 2 5 acre farmettes. New house went up on the one by my uncle, house is 100 feet or less from the property line. Five years later the fella wanted to buy an acre from my uncle, to plant a windbreak grove.

Well, that would set up odd angles & end rows for farming, really wreck my uncle's farm. Selling that one acre would 'lose' 2 acres of production forever from that field.....

Never happened, fella should built his house with better planning so it didn't get blasted with the NW winds every winter....


Anyhow, it can be done, but unless you come with fistfuls of dollars or if the border land helps to square up a field (you buy a triangle, woods, or wet spot type of thing), I would not expect to get real far.

--->Paul

 

[T_Bone]

Hi blue,

There"s been alot of good points made. Another way to buy land is using a 99yr lease. Here the lessor (you) agrees to pay the leasee (original owner) a yearly fee that is equal too the property tax increase or decrease thru a escrow agent that"s up and above the yearly property payment. A escrow agent pays the tax bill so both parties are assurd the property taxes get paid each year, for usually a small ecrow fee, approx $35yr. The more the esrow agent preforms the more it costs for this service. Using a escrow agent, both the leasee and lessor are guarteed that the monies will be disbursed to there rightful owners or incase of default, return the property back to the original owner. The escrow agent follows the lease contract to a tee so make sure it contains all the correct info.

Usually the onwer gets the 99yr money upfront when the deal is made or can be set up with payment just like buying on time payments.

So the lease turns out with a yearly TI (actual cost of taxes and insurance) payment OR just like a PITI payment when you borrow money to buy property that covers principle, interst, taxes and insurance.

Some States allow for a automatic 99yr lease renewal without any additional fees and this would be just like holding a deeded property. Once grandfathered in, this lease can continue for life of the lease (deed).

In our county, a non-owner use of raw property is charged at a 16% of accessement rate where
owner use is charged 10% of the accessment rate. This is why our State and county allows a renewable 99yr lease. The county makes you declare each year if the property is not owner used.

Our State has approved standard realestate forms that contain all the legal mumbo jumbo that needs to be in there. After the owners sign the form(s) then there recorded at the County recorders office and that document is written in stone. Bought at any stationary supply.

There are also lease closers, just like deed closers when you buy property out right, that will handle all the paper work for a fee. Most title companys will preform this service, about $250/transaction. My last one was done 99% over the telephone and only required me to show up for closing signatures. This was completed in less than 30days as there was a small title problem that needed correcting.

So why would a owner sell on a 99yr lease? Because they can defer income taxes with getting cash up front, the return of capital (ROC as the IRS calls it). The profit would then collected yearly just like principle money on a cash sale at maybe a lower tax rate to the seller. Your benifit might be you can spead out the amount due over the life of part/all of the lease without paying interest and earn interest on the money being held to pay the lease.

The lease can/can not also contain interest fees.

Again the escrow agent can handle all the money disbursement for both parties.

In our State only county recorded surveys are 100% unchangeable provided that they are correct when recorded or a period of time lasped? I can"t remember the exact wording.

My son ran into this problem when the contractor built 100ft of his block fence on 2ft of his neighbors property. The contractor had to pay 100% of the cost to move the fence, about $5grand

Consult an Attorney for the correct info as this is just what I remember.

T_Bone

 

[T_Bone]

You brought up another good point where a lease might motivate the seller as he could continue to farm the land on a lease back.

You never know what/when makes a person want to sell. I've seen some that will not sell to there neighbors just because the owner didn't want there neighbors to know or suspect they were having money problems. They will sell to a stranger tho! So how about a trusted family member as a buyer? This can work on a sub-lease/sale tranferable contract.

Or like my back adjoining neighbors that refused to sell to me, as they were just trading property ownership to drive up the accessment prices thus could sell the properties at a higher dollar amount in futhure years.

They and many other realators tried to get where 3.3a would sell for $150k, up from $20k the year before. What they did get accomplished was $25k in 2007 and $77k in 2008. What a rip off as property has not sold for that other than changing ownership between realtors. But try and prove it as they have family too! The FBI calls this person a "straw dog" and is a class 1 felony and a class 4 if they hold a realestate license, and both are automatic jail time.

I'm filing a formal written complaint with the FBI in 2008 as I suspect this will be easy to prove for the FBI.

T_Bone

 

[rrlund]

A "few acre buffer" might not be enough if you end up living on a suburban street some day. Could get to the point where even if you grow a large garden,all that you grow might turn up missing when you aren't looking. Kind of like putting an 80 in a farm land preservation program when urban encroachment is at hand. Most folks wouldn't want to farm for for all the hassles that a person would get from all those neighbors and the traffic.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Lease? You lost me.

Are you saying I lease the land from the landowner on a 99-year lease?

What's the benefit of that vs. outright buying property?

 

[VaTom]

"Who do I talk to to get answers to questions like is it extending the property line or is it adding on a new parcel? Do I need to talk to a lawyer, talk to the county assesors office, or what?"

My county has a Planning Dept. with one person specifically to answer these types of questions. Unfortunately you don't always get the correct answer if you don't ask quite the right question. That'll depend on how helpful the bureaucrat feels like being. Sometimes pays to be real nice. As you're trying to preserve some land from development, they should be wanting to help you.

Otherwise, leaves you with asking for copies of all the rules and studying them. I have no idea how complicated you may find it, but here the only good solution is to get the rules and read.

A knowledgeable real estate attorney might be able to help you, but there's only one I'd trust in our area. The others know less than I do about the complicated rules.

The assessor isn't a bad place to start, but their job probably is making sure land is taxed correctly, not interpreting land division rules.

You may find that there aren't confusing rules. If so, I congratulate whoever wrote them. And encourage him/her to move here. We've got a mess, getting worse with efforts to "protect" rural land.

I'm currently finishing a new 1/2 mile driveway, with significant elevation change, to avoid a new rule in the offing that would prohibit the road. Thereby, making 3 currently buildable lots unbuildable. Sure, there'll be lawsuits. But I don't want to be the test case.

Good luck with your project and keep us posted.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Gosh, T_bone I might just come bother you when I try to buy a house. I think I want you on my side : )

 

[T_Bone]

Hi Blue,

A 99yr renewable lease is just like buying land as you have complete use of the land and would only pay insurance and property taxes, or the same PI you would pay if you owned the land.

The renewal part of the lease means the lease will roll over into another 99yrs without any intervention of the intrested parties, ie; automatic. The lease just keeps renewing every 99yrs.

The lease can be passed onto heirs. Usually when the principle (the original owner) leasee dies, the estate trustee wants to pass on a deed to the lessor (you) to settle the estate.

From your questions asked, Tom has great ideas. Realestate is not the easist topic to understand.

The best books I found on the subject were supplied by the schools that deal in realestate exam preperation. I think the class and books cost me under $200 in the 70's and I dropped out of school the last 1hr of class as I didn't want a realestate license. I only wanted the knowledge. "They" (the people who know "good" answers) don't like it when someone just wants to pump them for info, so getting into some of the better classes is difficult.

Once you have a realestate license, the law assumes you know what your doing and are unforgiven when you make mistakes.

As a regular Joe then the law can bend in your direction as it's assumed you don't know what your doing.

Always remember the "Golden Rule", He who has the gold makes the rules!

T_Bone

 

[Jeff-oh]

With out reading the long posts below... Talk with him. You never know. If you come up to angreement, then it can be resurveyed and new plot maps mad and filed.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Thanks for all the replys. All good info, and shows what a good resource this board is.

I'll keep you folks posted.