calling john t...electrical ??'s

[glennster]

howdy john, electrical question for ya. built this secret mens club club house out in my woods. thinking about some lighting, maybe a fan, couple odds and ends. there is no way to get electrical service there, so, was thinking about using 12vdc to 110 ac power inverters. i can get a 2000 watt for a little under $200.00. i have some big deep cycle batteries, can charge them up at the barn. can i wire the building and use a small breaker panel, maybe 60 - 100 amp, feed it from the power inverter? how about a ground rod? gfci outlets? think it will work? if you used 2 - 2000 watt ac converters, if you tied the neutrals together, common ground, you should get 220v at the breaker panel, correct? or should i just stick with candles and kerosene lamps........... thanks glenn

 

[IH2444]

I think some of the inverters you can phase connect to get 220V. But you can't just hook em together and expect to get 220 accross them.


You are going to eat a lot of watts sounds like

 

[Texas Sand]

Check these out, looks like what you want.

http://cgi.ebay.com/2000-4000-Watt-Power-Inverter-12V-DC-to-220-240V-AC-NEW_W0QQitemZ250315589451QQihZ015QQcategoryZ85805QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


http://cgi.ebay.com/3000-6000-Watt-Power-Inverter-12V-DC-to-220-240V-AC-NEW_W0QQitemZ250315588837QQihZ015QQcategoryZ85805QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/5000-10000-Watt-Power-Inverter-12V-DC-to-220-240V-AC_W0QQitemZ250315588120QQihZ015QQcategoryZ32814QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[john *.?-!.* cub owner]

what about using 12 volt lights, fans, etc. like in a camper, just a single inverter where needed. Inverters wasted current. 12 volt equipment will run longer per charge.

 

[Texas Sand]

well, never mind, I read more carefully about those and they are 50hz. I'm sure you can get 220 60hz though.

 

[John T]

Glen, Since youre already dependant upon such limited energy stored in batterys, I dont like the idea of wasting any of it as heat in an inefficient inverter. You can buy all sorts of RV and marine type fluorescent (or even LED I believe) light fixtures so Id use them as much as possible (check Flea Bay for RV lighting) for lighting to save the energy wasted as heat in an inverter......Of course, some 120 VAC would be great, so I have no heartburn with an inverter but what in the world are you gonna need there that requires 240 in the first place?? If you gotta have it, sorry Im not up on what types of inverters (if any) you can piggy back to get 240 BUTTTTTTTTTT household 240 is two seperate legs of 120 that are 180 out of phase from each other resulting in 240 since one phase is say + 120 while at the same time the other is - 120. What Im saying is 120 + 120 does NOT NECESSARILY = 240 out of two inverters wired together but I dont have any catalogs or specs or any info whatsoever.

I would consider an an inverter as its own seperately derived source just like a genset and on those you can use plug and cord connected equipment out of device mounted receptacles and their Neutrals are bonded to the metallic case/frame (if it has one) which suffices as a grounding electrode i.e. no earth ground rods are required, you plug a drill in and use it and you dont have to earth ground the gensets. I also dont see any problem with using a lil panel as a distribution point to run 120 volt branch circuits out of, but again if youre worried about capacity you can use two inverters to power up two small panels say one for the front 1/2 of the cabin the otehr in the back 1/2 etc..... Id just buy one single large enough inverter to run what 120 volt circuits you need and NOT have the expense of two. If you want to use GFCI receptacles all you have to do is have the first one a GFCI and those downstream can be regular cheaper receptacles but youre still protected, they would be required for outdoor circuits and for like near a lavatory or sink etc and since theyre not all that expensive Id go ahead and use one at the first outlet so the ones downstream are also protected.

ALSO it takes a ton of stored battery energy to power up 120 volt loads and depending on loads it may not bee too long before the batterys become depleted.

ID PRICE AND CONSIDER A NICE SMALL 2000 TO 3000 WATT QUIET LITTLE GENSET VERSUS HAVING TO LUG HEAVY BATTERYS DOWN THERE, that way you dont have to buy expensive inefficient inverters and if you take two or three 5 gallon cans of gas its not that hard or expensive. Then maybe only drag down one or two deep cycle RV/Marine batterys and wire up a single 120 volt maybe 400 to 1000 watt inverter for whatever (if anything???? cuz a good inverter will run most but perhaps some critical electronic equipment like a computer???) you feel you may need. Id still use 12 volt RV (fluorescent or LED) light fixtures powered by a battery, that is if you want or need to fool with any batterys at all?? cuz unless you have some sensitive electronic equipment that necessitates an inverter, if you use a genset you dont even need an inverter right?? Of course, if you got the Genset ONLY route, then you dont need any batterys or 12 volt lights or nuttin, just uee the CFL efficient light bulbs to save gas.

CONSIDER A GENSET,,,,,,,, Whatch think now Glenster????????? Hope I didnt scare ya off, its your cabin and your choice n I will try n help regardless but Im not all that smart on inverter technology regarding the 240 volt and wonder why you need it and if anything you use down there needs perfect clean dead on 60 cycle power???

John T Nuff said

PS I forgot if I were to vist such a den on iniquity (spelling???) Id want a cold beer so haul down coolers n ice or have a big enough genset to run a fridge lol lol

 

[glennster]

thanks for the info john. i think i"ll go 12v with everything. i have a bunch of leftover electrical stuff from various jobs, boxes, romex, bx cable ect ect ect. so thats why i was thinking about the 110 inverter scenario. the genset would be kind of a pain because it would need to run a lot. with the batteries, i can just hit the switch and things stay quiet. the cabin is just a weekend getway to go hide out. over looks the creek, i have a target range across the creek, so you can sit on the cabin deck and plink away. also got a dart board, poker chips, playing cards with swimsuit gals on em, barbecue grille, and a big cooler for some beverages. even have a little woodstove for some ambiance!!! when i get er all done, you"ll have to stop out and have a brewski!!!

 

[Anonymous-0]

The PETA and others would be all over you but you could put some critters on a treadmill generator lol. Lights are going to give away the secret and we will find you

 

[Anonymous-0]

120/240 volt inverters do exist. They are used in houses that depend on solar cells and windmills to charge the batteries. But if you had to ask the price you can't afford them. Probably a couple bucks a watt in the 2 to 4 KW sizes. Look in Home Power Magazine for sources and discussion. They have a good web site and printed magazine.

When running wiring for 12 volt loads, unless the runs are very short (4 feet or less), go up 2 or 4 wire gauges because at 12 volts voltage drop is more of a limit than wire heating. And NEC code wire sizes are chosen for heat considerations rather than voltage drop.

Gerald J.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Get an exercise buke with a Harley generator attached to wheel.Drink beer and peddle at the same time.Any streams nearby for waterpower?

 

[bc]

You can get a small 3000 watt gen for 2 or 3 hundred bucks. That'll run your beer cooler, vibrating bed, jacuzzi, filetting knife, deer processing saw & grinder, etc. Get a bigger one for 5 or 6 hundred bucks and have a standby for the house. You'll get tired of hauling batteries back and forth for charging.

Use 12v and then use the gen to charge the batteries when needed or power up something else when needed. 12 volt lamps will work to play poker by. Lowest and Home cheapo have some halogen lights, 12v I think, maybe on a track, that use a 120 transformer to run them.

 

[IH2444]

At any camper supply place you can get 12V flourescent lights. Good light and low power drain.

 

[Stan in Oly, WA]

Hi dr sportster,

Have you ever had the opportunity to try the setup you're describing? I forget where it was but I once got to ride an exercise bike to see how much effort it took to power a 40W light bulb. It takes a lot. I was very surprised even though I had once owned a bicycle with a generator powered headlight. Just snapping the generator shaft against the side of the front tire produced a noticeable drag, and it required a disagreeable amount of extra effort to produce enough electricity to make the lamp shine bright enough to help show the road.

Of course, it wouldn't hurt to use a stationary bike powered generator to charge up a storage battery if you were using the bike for exercise anyway.

All the best, Stan

 

[farmer boy]

That's a really expensive way of doing that. Why not get a generator and build 3 walls about 4-5 feet high (no roof)20 feet away from the building and put the generator in there? It would kill the sound to the point that you probably wouldn't hear it and you wouldn't have to constantly worry about running out of power. You can run the whole day for $15. You also wouldn't have to have breakers and could run a little heater to keep warm in the winter.