Never have I been so disappointed as when my wife and I went to Racine Wisconsin this week. Went to the Heritage Museum and didn't see much of any Case items. Then they sent us to the old Case headquarters building. Nice receptionist and not much of a exhibit to see. Something is wrong with so much history as Case has to offer to a town and world and nothing to offer the tourist, history buff or collector. Just glad that our trip was for other business and not just to see Case memorabilia. So sad to see this happen. Could it be because of Fiat?? Not an American Co. so not wanting to show old American know how. Just a shame.
Jim in Sask
Member
I think the Case side of Case IH was being relegated to the dustbin before Fiat came along. It seems the company is trying to ride on the IH heritage much like John Deere does their history. Probably in some markets IH had a way bigger presence than Case did, but there's a lot of areas like around here where Case tractors were as popular as any other brand and often the most popular.
Considering Case heritage includes huge steam tractors and threshing machines vs. IH's grain binder and John Deere's plow, I'd say it's quite an oversight.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
because they are rare, mmoline , oliver case tractor values will surpass the dears and ihc stuff in my lifetime ...
Don Rudolph
Well-known Member
It is an interesting situation. The company really does not want anything to do with the Case side of it"s heritage. For years getting parts for our machines has been next to impossible. After the merger in 1985 the closed out Case dealers were ordered to deliver their parts to collection points to be destroyed. That meant getting parts was even harder.
In reality Case was a crappy company that suffered from extremely poor management.
We are the only people that want to keep the Case history alive.
Sorry if this offends anybody, but it is the truth as I have seen it.
In reality Case was a crappy company that suffered from extremely poor management.
We are the only people that want to keep the Case history alive.
Sorry if this offends anybody, but it is the truth as I have seen it.
Ande
Well-known Member
Yes,I would agree that is sad to hear but no matter what museum they are at now,or maybe a warehouse,(I have heard the old Case machinery was shipped to someplace in Iowa)this new company will never exist without it"s history.And The J.I.Case Company is in all our hearts.They cant take that away from us.
A company is only as good as its UPPER management. I was an engineer at Cat for 38 years. Engineers are generally chomping at the bit to make their products better than the competition and generally always have designs in mind that could leapfrog the competition.
Engineer's longterm visions and capabilities of having the best mousetrap tend to get shot down by UPPER management's SHORT TERM goals of maximizing profits.
IH and J I Case had good stuff in the 20s and 30s but UPPER management blew Case's good reputation during the 40s and 50s with staginate designs. Six speed trannys, good performing brakes, and a sharper turning radius would have done wonders for postwar Case tractors. The good Case combines of the 30s turn to CRAP in the 40s and 50s.
It is next to impossible to recover from a blown reputation. Case's attemp at upgrading that started in the mid 50s, was hindered by a now bad reputation. Case never recovered it's reputation even though the Comfort King series and later were quite good.
IH maintained it's reputation thru the 50s and the model H holds the record as the best selling model ever among all American brands. IH's UPPER management in the 60s, and 70s injured IH as a company. For examples, their factories became aniquated the the New Generation Deeres caught IH off guard.
When Deere abandon it CRAPPY 2 cylinder engine, AG leader IH was indeed caught off guard. The IH 460 and 560 was a RUSH JOB to compete with Deere's 10 and 20 series. IH's reputation suffered greatly from this rush job. IH's UPPER management edicted that engineers grab their 6 cylinder gasoline truck engine, dieselize it, and thus put CRAP into the heart of the 460 and 560.
The first 6 cyl IH tractors were generally weak stem to stern and lacking quality. Their TA had a fragile, overheatable, dry clutch that had to absorb the power upshift energy and everyone knows about the TA weak point. Whereas Deere had put beef and quality into it's 10 and 20 series. With the 86 series, IH had caught up with Deere but Deere had not grossly stumbled over a bad reputation like Case and IH had.
I have some praise for Fiat's UPPER management. Unlike AgCo's Upper management that intended to sell their purchased lines as is, Fiat charged the engineeres of CNH to leapfrog Deere.
I don't think that CNH managed to leapfroged Deere but lets admit it THE RED AND GREEN GUYS ARE PRETTY EQUAL.
Engineer's longterm visions and capabilities of having the best mousetrap tend to get shot down by UPPER management's SHORT TERM goals of maximizing profits.
IH and J I Case had good stuff in the 20s and 30s but UPPER management blew Case's good reputation during the 40s and 50s with staginate designs. Six speed trannys, good performing brakes, and a sharper turning radius would have done wonders for postwar Case tractors. The good Case combines of the 30s turn to CRAP in the 40s and 50s.
It is next to impossible to recover from a blown reputation. Case's attemp at upgrading that started in the mid 50s, was hindered by a now bad reputation. Case never recovered it's reputation even though the Comfort King series and later were quite good.
IH maintained it's reputation thru the 50s and the model H holds the record as the best selling model ever among all American brands. IH's UPPER management in the 60s, and 70s injured IH as a company. For examples, their factories became aniquated the the New Generation Deeres caught IH off guard.
When Deere abandon it CRAPPY 2 cylinder engine, AG leader IH was indeed caught off guard. The IH 460 and 560 was a RUSH JOB to compete with Deere's 10 and 20 series. IH's reputation suffered greatly from this rush job. IH's UPPER management edicted that engineers grab their 6 cylinder gasoline truck engine, dieselize it, and thus put CRAP into the heart of the 460 and 560.
The first 6 cyl IH tractors were generally weak stem to stern and lacking quality. Their TA had a fragile, overheatable, dry clutch that had to absorb the power upshift energy and everyone knows about the TA weak point. Whereas Deere had put beef and quality into it's 10 and 20 series. With the 86 series, IH had caught up with Deere but Deere had not grossly stumbled over a bad reputation like Case and IH had.
I have some praise for Fiat's UPPER management. Unlike AgCo's Upper management that intended to sell their purchased lines as is, Fiat charged the engineeres of CNH to leapfrog Deere.
I don't think that CNH managed to leapfroged Deere but lets admit it THE RED AND GREEN GUYS ARE PRETTY EQUAL.
I agree with most of what you said, but tell me how an 86 series tractor can possibly equal anything Green in the same era? TA, dry clutch, grinding gears, and slow hydraulics, compared to a deere. Hey, I kinda like the Case heritage thing, but the only thing IH ever figured out was the axial flow combine. All the farmers in our area have a big red combine and a fleet of green tractors, and the same for us.
rustyfarmall
Well-known Member
IH had the 460 and 560 already on the market one full year BEFORE the new generation Deeres were introduced, so I really think it was Deere that was playing catch up, not the other way around.
It is true that the IH 460 and 560 were introduced for sale about 2 year sooner than the New Generation 10 series Deeres so I need to clarify.
The Deere 10 series was in development for about 7 years and offered for sale about 1960. Companies spy on each other. It is an educated guess that IH surpisingly found prototypes of the 10 series doing endurance work in farmer's fields about 1955.
I used a little poetic licence to say that IH was caught off guard. I don't know IH's exact reaction but at Cat, we were sometimes suprised and caught off guard by what our spies found our competitors doing. I remember a moderate level of Company panic when our spies found a prototype John Deere articulated motor grader. We did a RUSH JOB to try to catch up but Deere being first to the marketplace with articulation was enabled to capture a large share of the small motor grader market with their better mouse trap.
UPPER managements tend to have incentive to be the first on the market with better mouse traps. The downside is haste makes waste. By hastily beating Deere to market with smooth 6 cylinder power, IH wasted their good reputation by leaving too much CRAP in the 460 and 560.
Regarding the TA, it was a mixed blessing for IH. On the positive side, it was smooth, lowjerk, and efficient. Even though it had durability problems, I would rate the TA as reputation neutral for IH.
Bad jerks were common for years in the powershift offerings by Deere, Case, Allis, and others. Even many of today's powershifts jerk significantly during specific range changes. My recent outing on an 8310 Deere showed me that Deere still had bad jerks during certain range changed. The 18 speed Funk powershift produced by Deere has a really bad jerk in the 9 to 10 shift. This tranny was used in certain models of Ford and the first smaller Cat Challengers.
Case O Matic was lowjerk but it was a joke i.e. a piece of CRAP. Torque converter efficincy is really BAD. My Case O Matic 400 would kill weeds under the tires due to extended periods of no sunlight.
Regarding the negatives mentioned about the IH 86 series, most tractors have both positives and negatives. I have a colletcion of older tractors ranging from a 1930 L Case to a 1992 8830 Ford. My collection includes a 1961 4010 DEERE, a 656 IH, WD45, and several D series Cases. I am sure that Deere lovers don't want to hear this but MY 4010 HAS SEVERAL NEGATIVE characteristics. Would anyone like my list of the 4010's positive and NEGATIVE characteristics.
The Deere 10 series was in development for about 7 years and offered for sale about 1960. Companies spy on each other. It is an educated guess that IH surpisingly found prototypes of the 10 series doing endurance work in farmer's fields about 1955.
I used a little poetic licence to say that IH was caught off guard. I don't know IH's exact reaction but at Cat, we were sometimes suprised and caught off guard by what our spies found our competitors doing. I remember a moderate level of Company panic when our spies found a prototype John Deere articulated motor grader. We did a RUSH JOB to try to catch up but Deere being first to the marketplace with articulation was enabled to capture a large share of the small motor grader market with their better mouse trap.
UPPER managements tend to have incentive to be the first on the market with better mouse traps. The downside is haste makes waste. By hastily beating Deere to market with smooth 6 cylinder power, IH wasted their good reputation by leaving too much CRAP in the 460 and 560.
Regarding the TA, it was a mixed blessing for IH. On the positive side, it was smooth, lowjerk, and efficient. Even though it had durability problems, I would rate the TA as reputation neutral for IH.
Bad jerks were common for years in the powershift offerings by Deere, Case, Allis, and others. Even many of today's powershifts jerk significantly during specific range changes. My recent outing on an 8310 Deere showed me that Deere still had bad jerks during certain range changed. The 18 speed Funk powershift produced by Deere has a really bad jerk in the 9 to 10 shift. This tranny was used in certain models of Ford and the first smaller Cat Challengers.
Case O Matic was lowjerk but it was a joke i.e. a piece of CRAP. Torque converter efficincy is really BAD. My Case O Matic 400 would kill weeds under the tires due to extended periods of no sunlight.
Regarding the negatives mentioned about the IH 86 series, most tractors have both positives and negatives. I have a colletcion of older tractors ranging from a 1930 L Case to a 1992 8830 Ford. My collection includes a 1961 4010 DEERE, a 656 IH, WD45, and several D series Cases. I am sure that Deere lovers don't want to hear this but MY 4010 HAS SEVERAL NEGATIVE characteristics. Would anyone like my list of the 4010's positive and NEGATIVE characteristics.
I don"t know if this happened anywhere else. It had gotten so bad for IH dealers here around 1983 they were selling and servicing new 90 series Case tractors just to stay in business. This was a few years before the merger. Case tore IH a new one on new tractor sales. Almost everyone had a 23 or 2590.
A lot of good points. I don't like green tractors but in no way is it even close to fair to compare a 560 to a 10 series JD. IH had to of shxx their pants when they saw what they were up against. IH needed to skip right to the 56 series tractors. If you really think about tractor history, tractors of all colors, popularity of certain models drove and still drives resale value for all of that breed of tractor. I can't believe JD sold more than 2 new 2 cyl. tractors and yet now some 2 cyls. will bring more than restored 4020. IH H-M's were handy user freindly tractors, but then came the TA era that they just couldn't seem to improve on. Case which seemed to be on the ball right away with threshers and steam engines, come to the sc-dc's which were very well built tractors but come on guys you couldn't do anything better than that front end! Case built a lot of good tractors but when the 70,90,94 series came out they lead everyone in cab comfort, power, and quality. Allis is the one that I don't know how they suvived as long as they did. The tractor could not have been built any cheaper, all the engines were small cubic inch, the trans. were knowen to be garbage, and even at the very bitter end in 1985 a 6080 STILL DIDN'T HAVE TRUE LIVE POWER.
l williams
Member
was at a CIH/NH dealer last week had red and blue tractors side by side the only difference was the color and the exhust were the sane tractors
Kevin B from Illinois
Member
Rusty Farmer you are so correct the IH pressance is still so big it will come down to IH with Fiat dropping the case name because as we see everything that happens carries the IH backround Farmall, beit C, A never any mention of case dc sc or anything else and I agree with some other comments the NH name will also disappear over a short time also.
N
N
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
yeah lets hear the pros and cons of the jd 4010 , i can relate , , got a 4020 powerpshift here thats a great shop tractor
Prior to buying my used 4010, I started farming on a shoestring with a used 730 Case CK. Traded it for a used 930CK western special and later traded for a used 1170 with wide front and 20.8 rear tires. I have had the 1170 for 30 years. This 1170 with fat tires not being good for row crop, I purchased a used 400 Case O Matic for planting and cultivating. When I upgraded from 4 row to 6 row, the 400 got traded for the 4010.
Compared to four Cases that I owned before I bought the 4010 and for the POSITIVE FEATURES , generally the 4010 steers easy, the brakes are strong and consistent. I give it good marks for being nimble. The shift pattern from 5th forward to high reverse is an inline movement of the gear shift. These things make the 4010 pleasant to operate for shuttle work, mowing in tight spots, etc. I have not had any durability issues with the 4010 but it is still a low hours tractor about 5000 hrs. The bigger 1170 and an 8830 Ford are used for the heavy grunt work so the 4010 is not worked hard.
NEGATIVE FEATURES. My very first disappointment with the 4010 was when I drove it home from the local dealer where I bought it 20 years ago. I revved it up in road gear for the first time and 8th gear growled at me. BUMMER!!! None of the older Cases that I had previously or current owned had any powertrain noises.
Another disappointment with the 4010 was when cultivating and having to turn short at the ends, pressing hard on the brakes causes them to growl. BUMMER!!! Also, the front axle steering geometry is bad for turning sharp. The outer front tire plows a rut if the brakes are used just enough to cause the inner front tire to not skid during the turnaround. So for most turnarounds, I was seeing crops getting uprooted by the outer front wheel plowing and also getting growled at by the brakes. DOUBLE BUMMER!!! No Case of mine has exhibited these problem.
My 4010 has a noisy hydraulic pump. It functions okay so I just endure the noise. BUMMER!!!. None of my Cases had hydraulic pump noises.
My 4010 has exhaust slobber. One has to love the Case 451 and 504 engine. My 1170 exhaust noise is as smooth as silk so this probably makes me notice the 4010's inherent, can't fix, exhaust slobber. Exhaust slobber is caused by having the exhaust manifold's outlet located forward near the number one cylinder exhaust valve port. The 1170 has the exhaust balanced midway between the front three and back three cylinders. The Case engine purrs and the 4010 engine slobbers.
My 4010 starts poorly even though the fuel injection system is not weak. In warm weather with the engine cold and quarter throttle, the 1170 fires strongly on about a cylinder's second compression stroke and one can quickly let go of the starter. For the same situation and with at least half throttle, the 4010 has to be cranked several revolutions and then it begins to peck, peck, peck. If one keeps the starter engaged, it eventually starts. The 4010's starter has been to the repair shop but the 1170 starter is still strong and never been off.
The 1170 has the more comfortable seat. I contunue to be amazed at what green blood does to one's objectivity and to one's reluctance to drive a different color for a couple of days.
Compared to four Cases that I owned before I bought the 4010 and for the POSITIVE FEATURES , generally the 4010 steers easy, the brakes are strong and consistent. I give it good marks for being nimble. The shift pattern from 5th forward to high reverse is an inline movement of the gear shift. These things make the 4010 pleasant to operate for shuttle work, mowing in tight spots, etc. I have not had any durability issues with the 4010 but it is still a low hours tractor about 5000 hrs. The bigger 1170 and an 8830 Ford are used for the heavy grunt work so the 4010 is not worked hard.
NEGATIVE FEATURES. My very first disappointment with the 4010 was when I drove it home from the local dealer where I bought it 20 years ago. I revved it up in road gear for the first time and 8th gear growled at me. BUMMER!!! None of the older Cases that I had previously or current owned had any powertrain noises.
Another disappointment with the 4010 was when cultivating and having to turn short at the ends, pressing hard on the brakes causes them to growl. BUMMER!!! Also, the front axle steering geometry is bad for turning sharp. The outer front tire plows a rut if the brakes are used just enough to cause the inner front tire to not skid during the turnaround. So for most turnarounds, I was seeing crops getting uprooted by the outer front wheel plowing and also getting growled at by the brakes. DOUBLE BUMMER!!! No Case of mine has exhibited these problem.
My 4010 has a noisy hydraulic pump. It functions okay so I just endure the noise. BUMMER!!!. None of my Cases had hydraulic pump noises.
My 4010 has exhaust slobber. One has to love the Case 451 and 504 engine. My 1170 exhaust noise is as smooth as silk so this probably makes me notice the 4010's inherent, can't fix, exhaust slobber. Exhaust slobber is caused by having the exhaust manifold's outlet located forward near the number one cylinder exhaust valve port. The 1170 has the exhaust balanced midway between the front three and back three cylinders. The Case engine purrs and the 4010 engine slobbers.
My 4010 starts poorly even though the fuel injection system is not weak. In warm weather with the engine cold and quarter throttle, the 1170 fires strongly on about a cylinder's second compression stroke and one can quickly let go of the starter. For the same situation and with at least half throttle, the 4010 has to be cranked several revolutions and then it begins to peck, peck, peck. If one keeps the starter engaged, it eventually starts. The 4010's starter has been to the repair shop but the 1170 starter is still strong and never been off.
The 1170 has the more comfortable seat. I contunue to be amazed at what green blood does to one's objectivity and to one's reluctance to drive a different color for a couple of days.
yes i agree. CaseIH doesnt really make any CASE stuff for the CASE guys, its all this IH stuff. CASE really was ahead of there times with everything on the right side I said earlier compared to a 86 series IH.............about Case with CASEIH, its said but true. like a guy said...were keeping it alive....you think CASEIH would be a little more proud of the case side of things than just IH because they were red and CIH was red....i think after the 94 series caseih deffenetly changed
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