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chainsaw fuel mixes

R

Rob Mo.

Member
A topic came up the other day in a saw the other day about the different 50:1 per-mix fuels on the market today. You have Tru-Fuel, VP, Stihl Moto-Mix, Echo Red Armor, etc. All state that they are no ethanol. We run all Sthil saws & leaf blowers, some Husqvarna 14" rotary saws, & 1 echo brand rotary saw. The fuel mix that is currently being used & have no problems with is Stihl's Moto-Mix. We switched to that after having problems with the Tru-Fuel brand. It was dealer recommended.

The topic of this discussion is whether a full synthetic fuel is better than a semi-synthetic fuel. In the 4-stroke engine world, once an engine is converted from a conventional oil to a synthetic, you can't go back to a conventional. True or False?

The dealer is now trying to convince us to switch to Echo Red Armor. Comparing cans & website information, the Red armor is a Semi-synthetic & the Sthil Moto-Mix is a synthetic (it is not specified whether Full or Semi). The dealer also stated that we are not to mix the Echo brand fuel with the Stihl brand. That made me wonder if one was a synthetic based & other was not. It made no sense to me why a company would change to something different if there was no problems with what was currently being used & the price of the Echo brand was more money than the Stihl brand. Sounded like typical behind the counter salesman to me.

I ask you all, what type of pre-mix fuel do you use in your 2-cycle engines. Why do you choose that type of fuel? Is there good/bad experiences with fuels that you have used in the past. I thank you all in advanced for replying. The feedback provided is of great value to me.
 
I have all stihls 4 chainsaws two weed eaters one pole saw. I use the stihl mix with 87 regular gas I'm 62 yrs old and have never had a issue with bad fuel Rick
 
I will get slammed for this like I have before.
I use the Stihl oil at 25:1 in everything.
It prevents damage to fuel lines and will crank after setting in the tanks even if not used for a long time.
It works for me.
Richard in NW SC
 
"In the 4-stroke engine world, once an engine is converted from a conventional oil to a synthetic, you can't go back to a conventional. True or False?"

False.

I use Stihl silver synthetic 2 cycle oil mixed per the directions with premium gasoline without ethanol in all of my two stroke engines.

Dean
 
I have quite a collection of chain saws along with other 2-cycle outdoor equipment including string trimmers, leaf blowers, and a small rototiller.

I use non-ethanol fuel from a local station that carries it along with a good 2-cycle oil. So far, no problems.

As to the synthetic vs. non-synthetic oils, some are made from crude oil and some are made from natural gas. In my humble opinion, that is just about the same as regular old oil. Just refined in a different way. The bottom line is that either one is providing vital lubrication that the engine needs. As long as the critical engine parts get the lubrication that they need, I see no restriction in changing from one to the other, Either one will do the job.
 
Well, I'm 65, going to be 66 in the spring, and I have NO idea why that would make a darn bit of difference, but I use Stihl 50:1 synthetic oil in Kwik-Trip 91 octane Recreational no lead no ethanol gas at about 40:1 mix. I try to get it all burned up within a month, and after two months it gets drained from the saws, string trimmer, leaf blower, and dumped in one of the FARMALL'S, they will burn anything. I read an article in Cycle Magazine written by GORDON JENNINGS, 2 stroke racing motorcycle tuning expert back around 1972, 2-stroke premix fuel looses HALF of it's lubricity in the first month the oil mixes with gasoline. After 2 months probably not much lubrication left.

I can mix a LOT of gas and oil for what a gallon of the canned premix costs.
 
1st question: In the 4-stroke engine world, once an engine is converted from a conventional oil to a synthetic, you can't go back to a conventional. True or False?

False, you can go back. What started this rumor, back when full synthetic oils were being introduced, it was claimed you could not mix or top up with conventional oil. Don't know what was supposed to happen if you did, but I suspect it was marketing hype.

As for dealer advise on oils, they are going to try to sell whatever makes them personally, or the company, the most money. Those places are inundated with outside sales people pushing their products.

Go by the owners manual (unless the saw is old enough for technology to have improved). Use the factory recommended oil, oil ratio, and fuel octane recommended.

I personally like the premium synthetics, but I don't let sales people convince me to waste money on something I don't need. As long as it meets or exceeds the factory specs, it will work. The oil rating ratio, as well as the actual ratio is critical. Too much oil is very dangerous. It causes carbon deposits on the hot exhaust side of the cylinder, which builds up to the point the piston looses bore clearance.

I don't have a specific brand I use. I do use synthetic, I do read the specs and compare them to the saw specs. Mixing gas for the saw will be more than sufficient for the other tools, as the saw sees the most demanding service.

If I could find non ethanol pump gas, I would use it, but since there is not a local supplier, I use regular grade E10. I keep the container closed, only mix small quantities. Other than bad fuel lines, I have minimal problems with it.
 
I use stihl oil in the orange bottles, in my stihl 2cycles, most are between 10- to over 20 years old, I also use it in two toro hand mowers with Suzuki 2 stroke engines, mixed at 50:1, I use stihl oil because I have a stihl dealer close by, that I also worked for years ago. My brother used amsoil syentethic with no problems, now he uses Walmart brand 2cycle oil, no problems, I don?t think there is a bad oil these days, just mix it right, as far as not mixing synthetic and conventional oil, I can?t see any problem, or going from synthetic back to conventional, the most important thing is that there?s oil in the engine, or 2cycle is mixed right. Ps, I only use 87 gas with 10% ethanol.
 
"2-stroke premix fuel looses HALF of it's lubricity in the first month the oil mixes with gasoline. After 2 months probably not much lubrication left."

I wonder where he gets his theory on this?

From what I've seen, 2 cycle mix stored in a vented container tends to concentrate oil as the gas evaporates and leaves oil behind.

In a sealed container everything would stay the same ratio.

Oil in a 4 stroke crankcase doesn't loose it's "lubricity" sitting unused. It will loose corrosion inhibitor additives, collect moisture, and the detergents will break down, but will still do it's job of preventing metal to metal contact.
 
I think that Mfgs and dealers are switching to premixes because of the people they are selling their saws etc. to. These people don't know how to mix fuel, forget to, or if they do, they don't want to be bothered doing it. Many likely don't go thru a gal. of fuel a year either, so they buy the convenience of having a can of fuel that says Stihl or Echo on it so they are sure they are using the rite stuff.
I'm 73 and have gone from mixing engine oil in pump gas to today, using synthetic in little jug to regular grade pump gas. My saws are still running fine.---------Loren
 
I bought a Stihl 026 in 1990 and used some of everything. Even had a bottle of oil that was advertised as 100:1. I mixed it at 70:1. For the last several years I've been buying TSC 2cyl in the pint bottles and transfering it to another bottle that measures it out. I mix it at somewhere between 32 and 40:1. The saw has had several carb rebuilds and two fuel lines. For the gas I use pump 87 octane. I have tried some 93 octane 100% gas but saw no difference with it. Saw performed the same. I use fresh gas every season. I don't think it's doing too bad for a 30 year old saw, used hard and not taken the best care of. Before the 026 I had a 041. When I got the 026 the 041 was used as the big saw. I now have a 044 for my big saw. The 044 and the 026 are probably used about the same now days.
 
I use a 40:1 mix in all my 2 stroke equipment with Stihl synthetic oil, never had failure do to oil. Red armor is good stuff as well, and would not have any issues using it
 

Instead of believing old wive s tales about two stroke oil and octane . Let s read what the experts at Rotax know about building two stroke airplane engines etc . Now there is a market with liability and moral responsibility.
 
(quoted from post at 20:32:31 11/28/19)
Instead of believing old wive s tales about two stroke oil and octane . Let s read what the experts at Rotax know about building two stroke airplane engines etc . Now there is a market with liability and moral responsibility.
Click to expand...

https://www.rotaxservice.com/rotax_tips/rotax_feed2.htm
 

Instead of believing old wive s tales about two stroke oil and octane . Let s read what the experts at Rotax know about building two stroke airplane engines etc . Now there is a market with liability and moral responsibility.
 
You can switch either way, it doesnt matter but there is not a single reason why conventional oil is better unless you are $$$ cheap. The benefits far outweigh the little price difference, this includes crankcase, fuel mix oil, or any other lube too.

Oil ratios are mainly about the quality of oil that was current at the time of production. Modern oils are far superior than oils used in the past. Older equipment doesn't need the heavy oil ratios today, they just had crappy oil back then. I use synthetic oil and mix 50:1, its silly to mix different ratios and have different storage cans. Extra oil use means you are displacing fuel, this not only causes a reduction in power, but makes it run lean. A lean engine runs hot and cause wear. If the engine is clearly smoking it has too much oil, a slight haze under load should be all you see.
 
When I was helping mow a cemetery we had two new Sthil weed eaters. We used CARQUEST two cycle oil. Didn't have any problems. Carquest is the only two cycle oil that can be bought locally. If you want any other brand you are driving anywhere from 35 up to 70 miles one way to find it.
 

LOTS of loggers up here, and I'm sure purists are going to have a coronary, but most of us use one cap full of oil to every tank of gas. No mix-up on gas cans, 1 5gal non-ethanol gas can in the truck and most of the guys carry their oil of choice in their saw box. I've been doing it this way for 5 years on my Stihl's and no problems yet.

Fire away!
 
My logger friend has a sticker on the door of his shop, If you object to logging, try wiping on plastic paper! Lol
 
I'm probably the most "anti-purist" 2 cycle owner in the country.

The owner's manuals on both my Stihl chain saws recommends not using over 10% ethanol gasoline, so I use 10% ethanol mixed at the ratio the manufacturer recommends with whatever 2 cycle oil I happen to have. A weedeater is the only 2 cycle I have anymore besides the 2 Stihl chainsaws and a Poulan saw. Everything else is either 4 cycle or cordless.

I can honestly say I've never had a problem I could blame onto fuel. I've often wondered if people don't have fuel problems caused by mixing too much oil in the gasoline. I figure the manufacturers know how much lubrication their products need, so I take their word for it.
 
Good article B&D.

A couple things stood out, synthetic oil not providing corrosion protection as well as mineral based oil, and gas loosing it's octane while stored.

Never thought of either. I doubt any 2 cycle oil has any R&O protection, just another additive to cause deposits.

Looking at some articles on octane loss from storage, one said it is degraded by sunlight exposure, only use opaque containers. Also said to keep containers and tanks close to full, avoid high temperatures and temp swings. Under good conditions, they give a 1 year storage period.
Fuel Storage and Octane Loss
 
Me neither, I think a lot of problems are from occasional users, with gas and equipment sitting, we saw so many dirty carbs on snowmobiles sitting with gas in them alI summer, I go threw 2.5 gallons of mixed gas sometimes every week, in the past we were using 5 gallons of premix a week. I did replace a carb on my stihl fs80r string trimmer after 11 years, that was the only one ever, and I use the trimmer 5 days a week, not all day, but it?s used.
 
Agreed, Steve.

I too have never heard of such theory, though do remember Gordon Jennings and did have two stroke motorcycles in the late 1960s.

Who knows what might have happened to two stroke oils of the 1960s and 1970s back in the day, but I stored my two stroke bikes over the winters and sometimes multiple winters with premix and pre EPA gasoline in the tank with no ill effects.

Dean
 
I buy some oil called no-smoke 2-stroke at L&M, mix it 3 oz to the gallon with 91 octane no ethanol, works great for me, never mix more than a gallon at a time, use it within 6 months. My oldest 2 stroke is a Lil-Jon, bought in 1972, newest is 10 years old, they all run fine. I think some of you over complicate something pretty simple!
 
That no mixing thing goes back to when synthetics were new and the fundamental chemistry was different. Kind of like the two different refrigerant oils: PAG and Ester based. Mixing them is a no-no.

Now of course the synthetic crankcase oil mixes fine with regular oil.

The only place there is still an issue is in jet engines where switching to a synthetic after running a conventional will cause carbon shedding. Of course that is a totally different animal from a chainsaw!

I just remembered that my Ingersoll Rand compressor had some warning about switching between the two but I can't imagine what the issue would be. I've had it about 15 years and have always run the same oil in it so it's a non issue for me.
 
A two stroke race motorcycle in the 60s usually used a castor based oil because it offered better lubricity than petroleum based oils of the day. It is derived from a castor bean and fairly quickly broke down leaving a gummy residue. This is probably what Jennings was referencing. Even today, some motocross racers with 2 stroke bikes will use castor oil seeking whatever power and lubricity advantages it offers.
 
I don't worry about the type of oil. I'm 64 and I'm still using a Lawn Boy mower I used as a kid mowing grass for people. No telling how many different brands and types of oil has been through it.

What gripes me is every tool you buy uses a different mixture. I have to keep three different fuel ratios for mine. I wish they could get together and come up with a standard ratio.
 
I use modern 2 cycle oil at a 50 to 1 mix in all my air cooled 2 cycle motors no matter what mixing ratio the instructions call for.
The modern oil of today is so much better than years ago when motors had 30 and 40 to 1 mixes.

Also make sure the jug does not say TC-W3 on it.
While the jug may say 2 cycle oil it is not good for your air cooled motor.
 
I think they have come together, hasn't everything been 50-1 for 25 years now? As stated below, I think you could buy a good quality oil and mix everything 3 oz to the gallon (43-1) and be fine!
 
I use 91 octane non ethanol fuel at around a 40-1 mix. My oil is Amsoil Interceptor. I use that because my son used to use that when he raced motocross with a 2000 Yamaha 125. Interceptor is preferred because the MX bikes (2 stroke) have a power valve in the exhaust that varies timing for more torque or more power depending on throttle opening. Interceptor keeps the power valve clean and provides superior lubrication, from what I've seen. I also work on small engines on the side, and the problem I run into the most is leaving ethanol fuel in these engines over the winter. I mostly have to clean the main jet in the carb, and they run great after that. My next door neighbor was cutting some trees down and his wife's son came over with his almost brand new Stihl, bought the previous fall. This was the spring and his saw would not start. I had him pour his old gas out, and put some of mine in, and it fired right up. I have 4 chain saws, a Dolmar 510 (my best saw), a Stihl MS250, an Echo top handle trimming or arborist saw and an old Poulan. I also have an Echo leaf blower, and they all have spark arrestors in the exhaust, usually just a fine screen. Interceptor keeps these screens clean. Granted, Interceptor is not cheap. Plus I have a small collection of Lawn-Boy 2 stroke walk behind mowers.
 
I use a similar mix on my Homelite and Jonsered saws,the 50:1 mixture has come about because of the pollution rules on small engines not because its the best gas to oil ratio mix.
 
Oils are better today and I think all will agree with that. Different mix ratios for different equipment brands are frustrating and that's one reason that I like to standardize on one brand of equipment. Back in the day 2-strokes would call for 20:1 mix and there was plenty of smoke. What we weren't seeing was that the heavy oil ratios were there to assure that the rod bearings got plenty of lube. This was due to plain bearings on both the crank and wrist pin end of the rods. When mix ratios changed it was a signal that the manufacturers went to ball and/or needle bearings to reduce oil mix and they reduced the blue clouds. I grew up riding Kawasaki motorcycles and learned a lot about 2-stroke repairs. Back then Oilzum was the choice at the dealership for our oil injected machines so all of us used that.

Not wanting to stir anything up here but today I always use the manufacturer's recommended oil mixed at the suggested ratios and I never have any engine problems. My only exception is on small 4-strokes (lawn mower, generator, snowblower) I use Mobil-1 Extended Range oil. A bit more expensive but I have good luck with it.
 
Old small engine mechanic friend of mine who died about 3 years ago said the engines need more oil than the 50:1 mix.
He told everyone to go back to 16:1 if it was something like a chainsaw that you run hard.
He repaired engines all his life.
 


I'd just like to note that the OP was asking about PRE-MIXED FUELS, not what your favorite mix oil was. IOW- he's talking the canned quarts, liters and gallons you buy and use as is directly from the can. He doesn't appear to be interested in 2 stroke/cycle mix oil opinions.
 
I do use Stihl Moto Mix in my KM 130R Kombi since it was new. Rationale is that I do not put the hours on it like a chainsaw, unless using the power pruner attachment, then it may see some more use. I think the best value is the gallon container, but I only know of one retailer that stocked the gallon can, for obvious reasons.

Another reason is that this was bought brand new and has only been fueled with moto mix and it may sit off season. I do have a lot of work for the power pruner at this time so I plan to use it this winter for sure. In the heat and humidity of summer weather, the emissions from this type of fuel is so much less noxious in still air.

Mixing my own, I use 91 octane non ethanol fuel with Stihl 2 cycle oil in my MS 390 chainsaw, carefully mixing the fuel and making sure to rinse the small bottle containers of 2 cycle oil with gasoline and pouring that into the fuel storage container. I under fill just a little to be sure I've got a good mix. The fuel lasts and I can use it up if it has sat a year, but I do prefer a fresh mix, however none goes to waste.

I know ethanol fuel can be problematic at times, but I've experienced trouble a scant few times in my equipment when I did use it. However, there are so many variables and I have cleaned carburetor jets out on others equipment that have been brought to me to repair. I used to do a fair amount of that, mainly carburetor work due to fuel problems/lack of use for extended periods of time.

Bret, thanks for the reminder, he was talking about pre-mix wasn't he.
 
Hello Richard G,

Hard to argue with success, BUT it is really not necessary to use 25 to 1 ratio anymore. A bit more oil does not usually hurt the engine, but not necessary. I am guessing you do have a little smoke under load. Today's oils are nothing like the 30 weight oil we used to mix the 25 to 1 ratios of the old days. 4 ounces to the gallon or 3.2 ounces to the gallon will give you a bit more power, and no smoke. I have some old saws the were 25 to 1 ratio and use a 40 to 1 ratio on all of them,

Guido.
 
Guido, my mechanic friend said they needed the extra oil at the speeds they run.
They don't smoke any more either.
He said as long as you are working them hard, it won't hurt anything and will prevent wear.
This old guy knew his stuff.
Richard
 
I have been using Tru-fuel. I think any premix is better than my rather clumsy measuring and mixing. Add the no ethanol situation and it just seems better for my limited amount of usage and probably cheaper in the long run.
 
I never had a problem on the ethanol gas either. I tried the Husquarvana pre mixed 50:1 and within a minute, I could tell and hear that my saw was running better and sounding better too. Just for the fun of it, try some good quality pre mixed non ethanol gas and report back on your findings.
 
They might be getting better but there isn't a standard yet. I've got a Murray weedeater that is 6 or 8 years old that is 40:1. The lawn boy that is around 50 years old uses 32:1 and the Stihl saw I have is 50:1. Some of these tools I don't use often enough to keep the gas good. I think I throw out as much as I use.
 
Hlo Richard G,

Well I guess he did know a lot about engines. I do not agree though. Bet you that the people that wrote the book on the engines they disigned and tested knew a bit more. Like I said hard to argue with success, but more oil means less gas, therefore less power and more plug fouling. But I am arguing against success!
BUT it works for you, all is well........

Guido.
 
Use what you can get for the best price per can. Synthetic or semi synthetic, both will work. Don't worry about what type of oil is in it. As long as it runs well, go for it.
 
(quoted from post at 19:55:39 11/29/19) Hlo Richard G,

Well I guess he did know a lot about engines. I do not agree though. Bet you that the people that wrote the book on the engines they disigned and tested knew a bit more. Like I said hard to argue with success, but more oil means less gas, therefore less power and more plug fouling. But I am arguing against success!
BUT it works for you, all is well........

Guido.
Click to expand...


I'm in ageement with Guido. Even back in the early 80's the chief US tech for Jonsereds was warning about overly rich mix not being good in newer saws. That being said, I tend to run my mixes at 40-1 rather than 50-1 in most of my saws. I do have a couple of early to late 60's McCullochs and Homelites I add a little more oil to, around 30-1. Clearances were different back then and I'll put up with a little extra smoke to ensure adequate lube in big clearances.
 
(quoted from post at 10:12:52 11/29/19) Old small engine mechanic friend of mine who died about 3 years ago said the engines need more oil than the 50:1 mix.
He told everyone to go back to 16:1 if it was something like a chainsaw that you run hard.
He repaired engines all his life.
Click to expand...

I can see why buddy repaired engines his entire life when using a 16:1 ratio .
 
(quoted from post at 11:50:50 11/29/19) Hello Richard G,

Hard to argue with success, BUT it is really not necessary to use 25 to 1 ratio anymore. A bit more oil does not usually hurt the engine, but not necessary. I am guessing you do have a little smoke under load. Today's oils are nothing like the 30 weight oil we used to mix the 25 to 1 ratios of the old days. 4 ounces to the gallon or 3.2 ounces to the gallon will give you a bit more power, and no smoke. I have some old saws the were 25 to 1 ratio and use a 40 to 1 ratio on all of them,

Guido.
Click to expand...

Extra oil lowers the octane of the fuel and makes detonation damage more likely .
 
(quoted from post at 18:55:39 11/29/19) Hlo Richard G,

Well I guess he did know a lot about engines. I do not agree though. Bet you that the people that wrote the book on the engines they disigned and tested knew a bit more. Like I said hard to argue with success, but more oil means less gas, therefore less power and more plug fouling. But I am arguing against success!
BUT it works for you, all is well........

Guido.
Click to expand...

More oil results in a leaner mixture . This makes the engine operate hotter and more prone to detonation .
 
Yep shake and wave with the right hand. Wipe with the left. Works for them but not this guy.

And i use stihl synthetic for my mixes try to go get the 91 octane but will use farm tank gas if i have to.
 
Hello Richard G,

It is well overdue, at least for me. We need to talk. My email is open if you feel the same.
You had my e-mail address at one time, I have yours I think. New computer is not as smart as my old one.

Guido.
 
Yea I have some saws over 40 years old that the motors have never required being worked on so yea I'm a proud Bubba that has proved the Pin Head 'Experts' dead wrong.
 
Hello traditionalfarmer,

Those were the saws. More compressink the any other brand!
I have one, ond those are the exceltion on plug fouling,

Guido.
 
Hello traditional farmer,

Yep the one with the magnesium housings. Heavy and solid. they were equipped with reed valves, and you either old them right, or ...you pull the rope and it would hit your kisser. I got two left, I thing both were 25 to 1 ratios. They have been running happily on 40 to 1 for years,

Guido.
 


I like the older Homelites. The little Super EZ Auto is a favorite. Snotty little saw! I have a C5 I'm working on as time allows now. Think it needs a coil. What a monster! Still have my late BILs XL Auto too, a red one. Nice old saw. I'd rather have one of them than a new plastic saw with a computer in it!
 
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