Check the simple things first (looong)

[John Smith8N]

Thought I would relate how a simple thing kicked my butt on a 6V front mount. I can't seem to be able to make a long story short, so here goes. Guru's will spot the problem right away. Rookies might, too. Had a friend call me yesterday to help him get his 2N started. He hasn't been able to get it to run since he did his spring tune-up and maintenance. The tractor is a '46 2N that was completely refurbished about 10 years ago. I don't say restored because it's painted 8N colors, but otherwise it's a near mint all original '46. So, I loaded up a small bag with a few tools and my ziplock bag containing a rebuilt front distributor/coil assembly. Nine times out of ten, swapping that good front mount distributor onto a non runner will get it going. First question when I got there was "what did you do to it?". His answer: new points, condenser, rotor, spark plugs, oil change, new coolant, replaced the water pump, new battery and cables. "Won't hit a lick?" "Nope". Ok, so I'll put my distributor on before ever ever hit the starter button. Got that done, made sure the plug wires were on right, stabbe it with a test light to be sure we had juice, and sniffed inside the gas tank. It was last year's gas but still smelled ok. Pour in a couple of gallons of fresh gas anyway. Pulled the air inlet tube off the carb so we could see what was going on there. Flipped the switch on, hit the starter button, and watched the amp gage swing indicating we had power and the points were opening and closing. Noticed he had wired the 2 terminal amp gage backwards because it showed charge rather than discharge. Not a problem. Everything else seems fine. But it wouldn't start or even try to fire. He said "I told you I put the points in right". Did you flood it before and get the plugs wet? Pulled all the plugs out. Clean and dry. Put a couple loose plugs on the wires and cranked it over. Got spark at the plugs as expected. Put everything back together, put the battery charger on it for some extra ooomph, squirted some fresh gas directly into the carb and tried it again. It would fire feebly a couple times but not enough to get it going. The tractor was in the front half of the chicken coop. It's 96 degrees outside and humid and the stupid rooster would not stop that annoying crowing even though the sun has been up for hours. After cranking and fighting it another 20 minutes I told him to get his pickup and a strap, and drag the thing up to where my trailer was parked. I'll take it home where I have decent tools and parts and figure out what's going on.

Got it home and in the quiet shop under the ceiling fan. Checked everything over again, twice. Pulled the carb drain plug and let some gas run through to make sure the fresh stuff was getting there. Tried starting it again and it would hit on one or two cylinders but never enough to keep going. It would sometimes hit enough to kick the starter drive out but that's all. Now, I don't believe in pull starting a tractor. If it won't start on it's own there's something wrong and it needs to be fixed. Pulling it ain't going to fix the problem. But, it's still hot as the devil out there, I'm tired and sweaty, and I'm convinced if it ever got going one time it could clear all the cobwebs out and be ok. So I got the wife to get on an 8N (not happily), connected a tow strap, and we headed out. For a hundred feet or so it sputtered and then it finally took off. Running rough, but running. No smoke or noises. I drove it around for a few minutes letting it warm up. Throttle response was poor, slow like it had retarded timing. But I know it's not retarded. Not really missing, I'm sure all 4 cylinders are firing, but it's just generally rough. Messed with the carb to find that turning the main mixture needle in made it want to die, and backing it out let the pressure off the spring and the needle got loose. Crappy carb. Backed it into the shop, and swapped the carb for a rebuilt one from a ziplock bag. Buttoned it up, turned on the gas, and hit the starter button. Same old same old. Would hit a few times but would not start. WTF? And then, the light bulb finally lit up over my head like in the cartoons. One of those slap your forehead moments. Dummy....how did you miss that? Five minutes of work later I turned the key, hit the starter button, and it fired up instantly and ran like a new tractor. Went for a ride and got crisp throttle response and smooth power. Shut it down, hit the button, and it starts up on the first turn and just purrs. So, what was the problem? For some strange reason this tractor had a major reaction to a simple problem that many other tractors seem to be able to live with without noticeable running or starting issues. I don't know why this one reacted so badly. Got it yet?

 

[DON TX]

Ignition switch.
DON TX

 

[Jock(OR)]

Battery installed backwards.

 

[Tom N MS]

Weak Battery.

 

[GB in MT.]

[b:151a63bc2f][i:151a63bc2f]Ya got spark, to the plugs, juiced up the batt., diff. distrib....same ol', same, problem........
I would say....Hot, Humid,heavy air into cold carb, and intake may cause poor attimizing of the fuel, and possible iceing of the carb.???
Warm up the intake for about 5 min's, and it fires right up???

Gary :?: [/i:151a63bc2f][/b:151a63bc2f]

 

[Jubilee85 (VA)]

this is a good one.....

My first guess what the ol bright and tight issue...but if it has enough to get turned over it should run...

My second guess - clogged air intake - mice or mud dobbers shut the air off and it was choking to death ?

everyone should give us a "CSI" case to work from...

 

[Hobo,NC]

I seen the tip off more than once in your diagnostics ,, not gonna say BUT BTDT got tripped up and did not like it... The customer did not believe me either cuzz it had ran as long as he had it that way ,,,Let everyone have a shot at it..
If you can not learn sum'n from this then you will never learn ,,, keep your day job... I also know you posted this for others to possibly learn sum'n,,, It will be interesting to see how you could have easily eliminated the issue by adding one more trick are one more tool to yer zip lock...

 

[schultz47]

I agree with Jack - battery installed backwards.

 

[HCooke]

"new battery and cables" and "ammeter showed charge instead of discharge". I don't think I would have looked at the battery hookup first off though. Also, I probably would have tried to start it with a 12 volt jump before I pull started it.

 

[Ed S.]

This is an example of what our IT department would call "a dead short between the keyboard and the floor."



I'll take "backwards battery" for $500, Bob.

es

 

[NYC Charlie]

This reminds me of Gus Wilson's Model Garage!

 

[Jim in Western MI]

Air intake clogged..., with chicken feathers and dust.

 

[souNdguy]

said he pulled the air hose off to see what the carb was doing, so I'm gonna have to go with the others and say battery backwards.. .. which also makes me think old weak coil, if it was running on the edge like that.. perhaps other involved parts like a dirty switch and bad wireing contacts..

soundguy

 

[douglloyd]

I'm with Don. Weak sister (fat sister?) ignition switch...

 

[Charles H.]

possitive ground

 

[John Smith8N]

This was an example of "assuming" and not checking. Yes, the new battery was installed backwards. The ammeter wasn't wired wrong, it was telling me the battery was backwards and I didn't catch that. I "assumed" my distributor was making a good spark, so I only looked for the presence of a spark at the plugs. Didn't open the gap and makes sure it was a strong spark. The reversed polarity lowered the coil output just enough that it would not start. A voltmeter would have been much better to use than a test light when checking for voltage to the coil. The fact that it was so adversely affected by the reversed polarity tells me something is probably not clean and bright. I will clean all connections at the ballast resistor and install a new ignition switch before the tractor leaves the shop. And, check voltages!

 

[Jubilee85 (VA)]

true...thats what i was thinking on the bright and tight thing...good point though

on the battery...arent the posts on a 6v different sizes like a 12 volt? I dont get a chance to hang around 6v stuff too much.....but it is hard to place the small one on the big post on a 12v.....i know why the did it too!

 

[Jubilee85 (VA)]

good job - not something I even considered !

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 09:52:44 06/09/11) This was an example of "assuming" and not checking. Yes, the new battery was installed backwards. The ammeter wasn't wired wrong, it was telling me the battery was backwards and I didn't catch that. I "assumed" my distributor was making a good spark, so I only looked for the presence of a spark at the plugs. Didn't open the gap and makes sure it was a strong spark. The reversed polarity lowered the coil output just enough that it would not start. A voltmeter would have been much better to use than a test light when checking for voltage to the coil. The fact that it was so adversely affected by the reversed polarity tells me something is probably not clean and bright. I will clean all connections at the ballast resistor and install a new ignition switch before the tractor leaves the shop. And, check voltages!

ust curious about battery charger connection........did you go by battery markings or by where cables went?
On the spark polarity thing, there is more to it than just that......connections, weak coil or something. Did the gen re-polarize itself to the reversed battery?

 

[souNdguy]

should be able to hit either post with either clamp.. especialy if either the post or clamp is worn.

soundguy

 

[souNdguy]

i agree.. I bet the coil is weak and or bad wire contacts / connections.

for it to be running onthe edge like that there must be other parts marginal than just the 'edison effect' and impeadance issues on the coil.

soundguy

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 10:40:50 06/09/11) i agree.. I bet the coil is weak and or bad wire contacts / connections.

for it to be running onthe edge like that there must be other parts marginal than just the 'edison effect' and impeadance issues on the coil.

soundguy

o "Edison effect" effect on cold start up anyway...gotta get hotter than Hades first.

 

[John Smith8N]

When you open the lid on a 2N the top of the battery is right there in your face. Along with the new battery were 2 brand new cables, a nice red one on the positive and a black one on the negative. Not looking at the other end of the cables was the mistake. The generator had no problem adjusting itself. I agree there is another problem introducing some resistance from the switch or dirty connections. The coil was/is a known good one. In this case, the reversed polarity was enough to make the difference as to whether it would run or not.

 

[Bob In Missouri]

Thank you for posting for the benefit of us fairly new tractor owners. I enjoyed the who done it. I don't think I would be dumb enough to install a battery backwards, but I have done some dumb things in my time. Several of the guys got it right too, which shows the caliber of knowledge on this board. Thanks again, Bob

 

[William Fissell]

WOW! Gus Wilson..... now that is a blast form summers past, sitting in the sun flipping through old moldy popular mechanics issues... I loved that column.

 

[Mike OH]

I agree with the others in that there is likely something in addition to the battery being reversed. I've seen at least two other 8N's with reversed batteries run great until the batteries were no longer charged. I'd suspect a faulty ignition switch as I had a similar situation with my Jubilee several years ago. I knew the switch was bad as sometimes I would get no deflection on my amp meter while cranking. A couple of jiggles of the key and the meter would deflect and the tractor would start. Just when I thought I had figured out how to get it started by jiggling the key, the unsuspected thing happened. I was able to get meter deflection, but no start. Can't begin to tell you all the things I tried. Finally gave up and I had a local Ford dealer send over his mechanic only to try many of the same things I had tried to no avail. Finally he jumpered around the key switch and she started. Cost me around $10.00 for a new switch and $95.00 for the service call. Expensive lesson, but one I won't forget.

 

[elmersooner]

it was professor plumb in the library with the candle stick----this was an awesome whodunnit. appreciate the post.

 

[souNdguy]

i suspect that after just a few seconds of running and the edison effect will be in play on the plugs as for spark jumping.. for the people who don't know about the edison effect we could always call it thermionic emission

and on the impeadance.. it's the big imp vs big + small.. which is rarely an issue unless, as noted everything is is so marginal as to be at the tipping point on the go/no go scale.

soundguy

 

[souNdguy]

if it's a known good coil, then I suspect some real raunchy wireing, or perhaps contacts at the dash resistor.. maybee even some bad splice jobs.. never know what you will find.. coroded wire-nutted connections.. etc. rusty terminals.. uninsulated, twisted together wireing.. oh wait.. I'm describing what my 950 had when I got it.

power wire to the coil was bare and you just lifted off the loos hot terminal on the batter and shoved the wire in betweent he post and clamp and kinda wedged it down.. then screwdriverd the botched up solenoid..

soundguy

 

[Ed S.]

(quoted from post at 08:34:56 06/09/11) WOW! Gus Wilson..... now that is a blast form summers past, sitting in the sun flipping through old moldy popular mechanics issues... I loved that column.

Been posted before, but all of the Gus stories are online here. i've read through them all a couple of times now - they're well-written and informative.

I keep thinking of ways to turn them into a feature-length film, but it would probably only appeal to old codgers like us...

es

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 14:52:44 06/09/11) This was an example of "assuming" and not checking. Yes, the new battery was installed backwards. The ammeter wasn't wired wrong, it was telling me the battery was backwards and I didn't catch that. I "assumed" my distributor was making a good spark, so I only looked for the presence of a spark at the plugs. Didn't open the gap and makes sure it was a strong spark. The reversed polarity lowered the coil output just enough that it would not start. A voltmeter would have been much better to use than a test light when checking for voltage to the coil. The fact that it was so adversely affected by the reversed polarity tells me something is probably not clean and bright. I will clean all connections at the ballast resistor and install a new ignition switch before the tractor leaves the shop. And, check voltages!

I have ran across it a few times in both cases all I did was swap it back to positive ground and they drove off... One guy got mad at me cuzz he said it had always ran negative ground,,, every thing that happen to it for awhile was my fraught :roll: in both it was because of a weak coil crap'n out... I would say you known good coil is not as good as you think,,, invest in a spark checker $10 bucks and tote it in yer pocket the next time you check spark,,, its a go no go gauge are continue to chase your tail like most do...

 

[McNugget]

I"m not so lucky: my helpful father-in-law reattached my car battery backwards and blew the diodes out of the alternator. He did lay down his credit card for the rebuilt alternator...

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 18:49:43 06/09/11) I"m not so lucky: my helpful father-in-law reattached my car battery backwards and blew the diodes out of the alternator. He did lay down his credit card for the rebuilt alternator...

Put this, likely not widely known fact, in you pipe and smoke it: If you install a Pertronix EI in a front mount distributor, the resulting HV is POSITIVE (opposite factory) REGARDLESS of whether you use 6 volt POS ground or 12 VOLT neg ground battery. :!: :idea: