Class Project: Need some pointers

[Shopteacher]

Hey guys, I am a high school shop teacher in Iowa. This year I started teaching a new class called introduction to industrial mechanics. I am trying to teach the kids how to maintain and rebuild equipment. I grew up the son of a farmer and tractors have always been a part of my upbringing. For this class, we are going to restore a 1941 Farmall M. Growing up, we had red tractors on the farm. I know some general maintenance on them, but Im sure some of you guys on here are far more knowledgeable than I am. When I was in high school, I restored a 1951 John Deere B. I used this forum all the time to get advice from people. I work at a school, and buying supplies is next to impossible, and takes forever. I am in the process of getting a manual but need to get some vendors in our schools business system. I am going to buy a manual, but in the meantime I was hoping you guys could help me with a few questions.

Right now, the engine is stuck. We are goin to rebuild the engine and had a couple questions on it. I believe these engines are sleeved. I know when I worked on my super c pulling tractor, it had sleeves in it. How do you guys recommend getting them out? I thought I would make something on our lathe that is just undersize of the cylinder bore and use a shop press to get them out. I remember my dad overhauling his 756 and I thought he might have welded a small bead down them and it shrank enough where they came right out, but I may be misremembering that. When you order a rebuild kit, do you press in the new sleeves and you are ready to go? Or does each cylinder need to be machines to fit each specific piston? Thats how it was on my JD.

The other question, can you remove the engine without splitting the tractor? It looks like you can, but Im not entirely sure. We would like to get the engine apart ASAP so we can give ourselves plenty of time to rebuild it. We are going to split the tractor, but thought it might be easier to get the engine out with the wheels still attached.

Thanks guys in advance. Cant wait to share your responses with the class!!
Andy

 

[fastfarmall]

Hi Andy,In my IH travels i got to know Charley U, he was a shop teacher also, from Austin Minn,he's been there and done it,trust me! i wished you knew him, he would be a great resource, for you! He's cut away displays of transmissions,TA ect! There was nothing offered like there is now,, when i went to high school!

 

[560Dennis]

Teacher , I would go to eBay and view the Farmall M blocks for your edification and amusement about what is going on in the internals of that motor. It
a free tour.
I recommend you split the tractor and replace the soft plugs. After 70 years they will be quite corrosion, paper thin . Nothing more embarrassing to do
all that work and find that puddle of antifreeze on the shop floor in the morning after the shop party celebrated the starting of the tractor only to have to
split it.
Remove the soft plugs first ,remove sleeves , have the block boiled out and cleaned. ,, Have it check for cracks .
You also need to check the clutch and throw out bearing. While split after seventy years the clutch wear will be a source of additional frustrations if
overlooked.
Check clearance of camshafts and block bearings , togreat of clearance will result in low oil pressure.
Good luck ,keep looking for other issues , they will surface once you get into project more.
Several blocks have been published on restoration .
The project will take three times longer and cost three times more than budgeted .

 

[fastfarmall]

I mispelled his name, Its Charlie's Repair, Austin,Mn.

 

[used red MN]

Hello Andy welcome to YT! Dennis has a very good layout
of some of the things your students and yourself should
include in the approach to this project. Let me say this is no
Oliver, I say that because you can pull the engine out of
one of those without splitting it. If you look at the attached,
which is a parts list and diagram for part of the M you will
see plate number 41 is what will give you the problem. The
odd shaped hole in the middle has the crankshaft sticking
through it and on the back side is the flywheel. And if you
look at the back end of the side rails you will see the back
off them sandwich that plate against the bell housing. So
no luck. I am cutting this short because the dinner bell is
ringing. I will add more later.
CNHI Farmall M parts diagram

 

[charlieu]

Welcome to YT. Drop me an email at [email protected]

I would like to visit with you as you start the Farmall M project.

 

[ss55]

I may be too caught up on the title of the class, Industrial Mechanics, or I may be misunderstanding the goals of the class, but in my experience a M Farmall tractor has very little in common with the industrial equipment I seen in factories and industries over the last fifty years, outside of actual farms or older forklifts. I understand that sometimes you do have to teach what you know, stay within a budget, and use the materials that are available.

Your local community colleges, local industries, and local industrial suppliers should have some good information and introductions to the types of equipment and components that your students will likely encounter in your local industries:
chain drives; belt drives; gear drives; bearings and seals; lead screws; shaft couplings; conveyors; simple electric motors; servo motors; stepper motors; linear motors; limit switches; encoders; proximity switches; fiber optic switches; PLC controllers; input and output modules; industrial inspection cameras; radio frequency identification tags and readers; bar code printers and readers; communication and data collection networks; pneumatic and hydraulic valves and actuators; robotics; hand tools; measurement tools; welding; safety guards; safety light curtains; parts lists; electrical schematics; and mechanical drawings; etc.

The newest M's are almost seventy years old now, industries have advanced a lot in that time.

 

[used red MN]

Back for more, do not know how good your memory is but a Farmall C has wet sleeves. Which I hope you know that means the coolant is on the outside surface of the sleeve and the bottom is sealed with an o-ring. The M has dry sleeves, which means they press fit in a parent bore in the block. So your idea to machine out a puck with a step is a common approach and use all-thread to pull them out. You also need a ..bridge.. I will call it to raise your pulling surface above the block surface the height of the sleeve. I am attaching a video of one guy I found in a quick search to give you an idea of what is needed. I will also attach a link to the CNHI Farmall M parts home page. From there you can navigate to all the parts sections for the M. Just be aware that many of the parts are no longer available and some that are command quite a price. Best of luck for your project, hopefully the kids take away a sense of responsibility from being part of a project like this one. Also hope they can sense some pride when they see, hear and possibly drive the finished product.
Sleeve puller

CNHI Farmall M online parts homepage

 

[used red MN]

Now I got started and cannot quit. I see another reply has came in that questioned the validity of working on an old farm tractor as application to ..Industrial Mechanics.. I cannot judge without swing the class objectives. I just know the repair of a tractor like this has a lot of lessons as to how things are put together in a certain way giving the dos and donts. Also instructing them how the parts of the tractor have to work together to accomplish a task. How if something small fails how it can make the whole machine useless. The applications are endless the way I see it. Now to what I really wanted to add. There is another parts diagram site for these tractors called avspares. It is an aviation related site but somehow it has parts layouts that mimic the original IH layout. It is a little more user friendly because the subsections have diagrams to view when you scroll through them, which helps you find what you are looking for, see link. The only issue with it is there are a lot of pop up adds, which can be a nuisance. The subsections are links in the fine blue print. Finally I could provide you a PDF copy of an early IH repair manual for the M. For that I would ask that you email me and I will get that info to you. If you log on in Modern or view in Classic my email should be open.
2nd option parts site for Farmall M

 

[Shopteacher]

Thanks for the help guys. I sure appreciate it. Yes, I fully understand that being an industrial mechanic in todays factories is different than fixing up an old Farmall. That is my thoughts on it being an introductory class. Kids today, at least my kids, dont have much in terms of mechanical aptitude. By following technical texts (manuals/schematics) and working on basic systems (electrical, hydraulic, etc..) and talking about bearings, seals, gears, etc.. I am hopefully providing these students with knowledge to prepare them for post secondary education. Im also trying to give them a glimpse at possible career pathways (auto/diesel mechanic, machinist, bodywork/painting, etc. We have a local community college that has a good industrial mechanics program. What my class is is basically a condensed version of their shop operations and mechanical processes class. Hope thhh is s makes sense!! Thanks again guys!
Andy

 

[gene bender]

You are looking at a money pit the head will need to go for rebuild and
that is like 500 easy. Tires and the list goes on pulling the engine alone take
more stuff than you have. How much money do you have for the project. Paint
from NAPA will be excess of 500. When you could use RUST-OLEUM FOR 50. How are
you going to clean the tractor sand blasting is the best way to go getting down
to clean metal then prime and paint. The tranny mite need work also more money
Are you sure you want to undertake that project.

 

[Shopteacher]

I'm well aware of what it will take, financially speaking. We have an antiquated metal and auto shop, but we have a lot of tools that would help us work on this engine and associated parts pretty regularly. I have used a flycutter on a milling machine to deck heads and blocks before, and we have the equipment in the auto shop to work on the heads/valves. A local tire company is working to get us a set of tires for free and another semi-local company remanufactures tractor parts and they emailed me and offered to donate parts to us. So, I understand the cost will be way more than the tractor will be worth. The kids are super excited to be working on it, and I will have to navigate the finances to make it happen. I figured this will run somewhere between $7,000-$10,000, but I am thinking we can save some money rebuilding some of the parts ourselves, which is what the class is really about. We have a cabinet blaster to blast smaller items and will likely have to source a soda blaster to blast the body of the tractor. I've used PPG Omni in the past and really like to work with it. I haven't been around a ton of paint, but that was way better to work with than factory john deere enamel. Thanks again for the help guys.
Andy

 

[chhanes]

There are a couple YouTube channels that have gone thru Farmall restorations you should be familiar with. The most comprehensive, in my opinion, is from the channel Squatch 253. He and his Dad - both auto mechanics - went thru a Super M from front to back. There are 61 sessions in a playlist, each being ~20 minutes in length. I believe it would be instructive to see the multitude of things they encountered while searching for the source of an engine knock. In addition, the series would give you an idea of how well your shop assets match up with those required for a full restoration. I would even consider assigning some of the sessions to your students to give them a heads up about how things look on the inside before they get there.

 

[3LFarms]

Will you be selling the completed tractor at the end of the class to raise money for next years class project?
Please keep us all up to date with this project. If you run into any trouble, the folks here can provide expert help.
Im looking forward to seeing how the kids do with the M.

 

[kshansen]

Not to get too far off topic but I hope those in power at your school are better than those I delt with back in the mid to late `60's. Some in power around here like to use classes like yours as dumping grounds for trouble making kids.

A couple years before I graduated the county schools got to geather and formed a special school for"trades" everything from beuticians to heavy equipment operators. I jumped at the possibility of taking the class on automotive mechanics. Well I got shot down big time by the "so called" guidance councelor! She said I was "Too smart" to take "those classes", I needed to go to college! Guess I showed her as after close to two years at the local community college I dropped out and got a job as a trainee mechanic at a local quarry and stayed there for 45 years.

But I always felt I had lost something by not having the formal education that I could have gotten if I had been allowed to take those classes.

Goo luck with your project. If I feel I have any help to offer I will chime in.

 

[Shopteacher]

(quoted from post at 07:15:29 08/28/21)
Not to get too far off topic but I hope those in power at your school are better than those I delt with back in the mid to late `60's. Some in power around here like to use classes like yours as dumping grounds for trouble making kids.

A couple years before I graduated the county schools got to geather and formed a special school for"trades" everything from beuticians to heavy equipment operators. I jumped at the possibility of taking the class on automotive mechanics. Well I got shot down big time by the "so called" guidance councelor! She said I was "Too smart" to take "those classes", I needed to go to college! Guess I showed her as after close to two years at the local community college I dropped out and got a job as a trainee mechanic at a local quarry and stayed there for 45 years.

But I always felt I had lost something by not having the formal education that I could have gotten if I had been allowed to take those classes.

Goo luck with your project. If I feel I have any help to offer I will chime in.

Hey guys, thanks for the responses. Yes, we will likely sell the tractor to raise funds for next years project. I will post on here regularly during our endeavors and to get help/advice from you guys.

I know what you mean as a dumping ground and it is kind of that way. I actually prefer to teach this clientele. They act and perform the best. The academic kids are just there to screw around. Not always, but usually. These behavior students also dislike school but they love shop class. I also know what you mean about counselors discouraging students, but Im not sure that happens like it used to. I am somewhat of a product of the, you are too smart, thinking. I was interested in the trades growing up but my parents discouraged me from doing that and I was coerced into going to college. I majored in elementary education, and while I enjoyed the kids, I wasnt passionate about the content. I made my way into teaching high school shop class, but often wonder what Id be doing as well if I wouldve chose a career path in the trades. Thanks again for the help, Ill be leaning on you guys at times with this project!
Andy

 

[T in NE]

A thought on the sleeves, depending on
the amount of corrosion, using a sleeve
puller could end in a ruined block. My
dad and uncle did it with two a couple
years ago, but I don't know exactly their
methodology or results.

There are ways to shrink the sleeves in
the block- canned air for cleaning
electronics is a refrigerant, it doesn't
make them unusable, as laying a big
booger-weld the length of the sleeve
does.