Concrete renforcement

I need to pour a slab of concrete 16' by 84'in a pole barn lean-to, I will be doing about 16 by 28' at per pour. Do I need both rebar and wire mesh? How far apart should I cut for expansion joints? How do I run Propane Line through poured concrete? This Floor will have 2" insulation under it and pex tubing through it for heat. It will be a workshop with no vehicles driving in it, how thick of concrete 4,5 or 6"? Thanks
 
I would run your expansion joints every 21 feet, which is a total of 3 separate expansion joints. (84/4 = 21)

Now, if it's just going to be a nice workshop, I would say 4 inches would be plenty for a workshop to walk on. You definitely want to run 1/2 inch rebar at least 2 foot square. Forget the wire - all it seems to do is create air pockets and just get in the way.

The most important part of any concrete job is the prep and material below. I recommend pouring over compacted 4 inches of stone, with very heavy plastic as a vapor barrier on top. Raise your rebar up on 2 inch bricks and tie them off. Pour and finish no more than 10 feet at a time, then when you reach 21 feet, install your expansion joint then continue.

You've got a job ahead of you.
 
We are going to pour concrete tomorrow for a 40x40 shop; rebar on 12 inch centers, pex tubing tied to it, and 2 inches of insulation under the floor (R10). At the shallow end of the pour (at the end furthest from the door) we have 6 inches of 4000psi concrete and infront of the main door (24x14) we will have 81/2 inches of concrete. Rebar and pex are 2 inches down (from top of pex to surface) pex tied on top of rebar. That"s just what we"re doing, hope that helps.
 
Crack control joints are normally recommended to be at 2 to 3 times (in feet) the slab thickness in inches. So for a 4 inch slab you need crack control joints at an 8 to 12 foot spacing. Any greater spacing than that and the concrete will make its own (usually unsightly) extra cracks. Crack control joints are there to deal with plastic shrinkage cracking as the concrete cures over 28 days, they are not "expansion joints". Full depth "expansion joints" normally aren't needed in a floor slab, though it might not hurt to put in a full expansion joint or two, considering that this will be a heated slab and that there will likely be a cold joint or joints in it anyway.

4 inches should be enough for a workshop slab on a good solid base. You might go a little thicker if the pex tubing is going to be subtracting from this thickness by virtue of how it is place in the slab.

Use wire or rebar, not both. Neither is really necessary for strength if the base is solid. But it is a good idea to have something in there to help keep the concrete from curling up at the cracks, or otherwise getting out of the nominal plane of the floor.

Use plastic rebar chairs, concrete "dobies", or pieces of concrete block to support your rebar.

Bricks are not recommended for this purpose because the clay absorbs water away from the curing concrete and weakens a portion of the slab near the brick.
 
You should search the net to see if you can find a typical heated slab detail, for reference, to provide some insight for reinforcing, I usually refer to design documents, done by an architect or engineer specific to a particular project I'm working on, though the details can be applied to something like this and or many home projects, same is true if you can find some standard details.

6" x 6" woven wire mesh or W.W.M. as abbreviated and seen on most design documents is fine for a 4" slab which should suffice for the intended use you describe. If the edges are thicker like an Alaskan slab, probably ok to use #4 deformed bar (rebar), see if you can find a typical edge detail of this type of slab, 2 bars spaced at so many inches, stacked vertically or side by side. With that size slab, to create a reinforcing grid with #4 bar, will be expensive, makes the slab real strong, but probably overkill, use the 6"x6" W.W.M. on chairs, when placing concrete use a hook to tug up on the W.W.M., just make sure it's not bottomed out or too close to the top, 4" slab, you try to maintain 2" cover on each side, also if you are using anything corrosive, concrete has capillaries and it will find this W.W.M. react with it and cause it to expand 3x its original size and cause the concrete to fail, more prevalent on old bridge designs where salt is used for de-icing, good to match your design for it's use. Another thought is, what about future considerations, structural, say you want a vehicle lift, or heavy machine shop equipment, consider extra conduit, stub ups, and similar for future use or a spare, all these things are good to consider before, they cost a lot more later.

One comment about the brick used as a reinforcing chair from another poster, I'll agree, as my preference is to soak things anytime when placing concrete, you could soak the brick in a bucket, they hold quite a bit of water if you were to weigh them before or after, on that note, soak your sub-base, don't flood, but soak it, will help compaction and reduce the rapid absorption of water from the wet material, concrete will displace standing water anyway, just a preference whenever possible.

You also have many admixtures for concrete, one is fibrous reinforcing, someone else will have to comment on the use of that type of mix, have no experience with it.

Crack control is almost an art, but having those control joints strategically places may well do the trick, now if you use an expansion joint detail, make sure to use the appropriate expansion joint material, I'm seeing what appers to be recycled rubber, made into 1/2" by 4" wide strips, 10'-0" or 12'-0" long, you can recess or leave flush, recessed usually gets a sealant on top, there is a specific caulk for this.

Few cents worth,

PS, get your research done, prepare the job well in advance and plan for a comfortable pour, make sure you have able bodies to screed, place and finish, oh and I'd use a vibrating device to settle the material, just one quick pass and move with those, settles it in nicely, don't over do it. There is also another device with 2 handles like a walker on it and is perforated with holes, I think that would work just the same when packing and settling the fresh material, best of luck on it !
 
Hi Mark,

As far as I know, gas line can NOT be run in concrete.

The main line has to be machine applied factory wraped on a underground gas line with 12mil field applied AGA wrap at every joint at 18" deep.

If you think about it, a leaking gas line installed in concrete would have the same effect of a cartridge in a firearm. That pressure has to go some where. UP

T_Bone
 
one thing that has not been mentioned is to request a front dumper truck from your concrete supplier. this will greatly reduce the work in placement
 
Guess I'm with David, Billy, & T-bone. But a lot depends on what area of the country you are in and freeze/thaw issues.

Gas line: underground under the the concrete before you pour. same for elec conduit or plumbing. Gas company just put a new meter in for me by the house. Ran their smaller and better yellow poly line inside the old 1" steel line. Steel is subject to corrosion so they are replaceing the whole town. Code and your plumber will require this anyway.

Concrete: 4" for walking, 5" for park a pickup to work on or drive on, 6" for anything bigger including a small tractor, 8" or more for a semi or large farm tractor. I'd suggest at least 6" Around here the lumberyards and other delivery trucks learned the hard way not to deliver onto driveways that aren't at least 6" cause they crack them. Fiber always adds a little more strenght. Can't go wrong with 4000# instead of 3000# but costs more. 3000# is quite common around here for your kind of job.

Expansion joints typically not used except against an existing old concrete or where you have a floating slab against a slab with a foundation to frost level under it. Control joints around here in KS are usually cut at 10'+- spacing as a rule of thumb to depth of about 1/3 of the slab.

Reinforcing: Remesh used most often on projects like yours. Gov. contracts for heavy duty concrete like airports, etc, usually spec out at 2' square rebar reinforcing you can speculate for their reasoning. Rebar is expensive now. I'd prefer a plastic or wire to hold it up. However everybody around here lays it on the ground so they can walk on it while pouring, then flip their concrete rake over and lift it into position with the prong side of their rake as they go along with the pour. If this is a floating slab without a foundation, sometimes they put a strand of rebar around the outside edge and tie the remesh to that.

Foundation: around here if you don't want your slab to move, then a foundation is needed down to 30" or 36" to get below frost level. Rebar used in the foundation. With a floating slab you take your chances but it varies for the part of country you are in which you didn't specify. Not sure why you are running pex to heat the slab, but if you are in cold country, I'd think you would want some type of foundation. Even on a floating slab around here, they will dig down an extra number of inches all around the perimeter up to a foot+- in from the outside edge and then slope the fill to it so they have some extra edge thickness for floating issues. You also want a thicker edge for an approach where you are driving onto it from gravel. Where you drive onto it they sometimes pour a little stepdown or put their leftover concrete spread around as a base for the gravel so you can avoid potholes forming at the approach.

Fill: 4" to 6" or more depending upon the type of soil you have underneath. If clay, you definitely need some fill. Avoid putting concrete on dirt. crushed stone has to be compacted. Around here sand is used more often than not. Probably should be compacted but I see many that don't, just screed it even, maybe tamp it a little with a screed board and then thoroughly wet it down before the pour.
 
Lots of good info below for you to mull over.

Pole barn floors are likely to crack running out from the posts if the concrete is poured around the posts. I have bent or tied re-bars into a horseshoe shape and staked them in front of the posts to help prevent cracks. Sad to say it hasn't always worked, but usually did.

On your contraction joints - we always tried to avoid rectangles. If the joints are laid out more on a rectangle pattern, as opposed to a square pattern, we noticed more random cracking. Made the engineers nervous. . . I can promise you it WILL crack, and it won't be the end of the world.

I personally won't pour a floor for myself without a toewall around it. Farmers call them "rat walls" for good reason.

I think you said you were going to pour it in sections. How will you handle the PEX tubing at the headers? Can you drill and rip a header to accommodate the PEX? Or can you arrange your PEX into zones that won't cross the headers? Not trying to be a smart alec, just trying to think of what could go wrong. . .

If your wall tin is already installed, you can remove a sheet here and there to stick the truck chute through. It will save you a lot of labor in the back of the building. I'm assuming you can get a truck all the way around to the back.

A GOOD finisher is valuable (and cheap) on a hot August day.

Good luck with your pour.
Paul
 
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