diesel gas

[mf40-man]

i just read the whole diesel/gas discussion on the main page, and yes, i am totally dedicated to diesel, diesel everything in fact, but i am really blown away by how negative most opionions are on the compression iginition system. Really just shows how foolish many americans are when it comes to diesel. The rest of the of the world is heavily diesel, passenger cars light pick-ups, most everything, but not here, we can only get the efficiency and longevity if we can afford the huge dollars of a 3/4 ton or greater truck,or a vw jetta (of course there are some others) why can"t we get a diesel ford ranger or canyon? the rest of the world can, but that is because of the average attitude of americans on diesel.

Any engine with thousands of hours will start to be problematic, but their is no denying that they are simpler in operation. Yes injection pumps and injectors are expensive and well beyond almost every shade tree mechanic but jeeze, they last for years and years and years. And the whole cold starting thing, well yes they can be tough, but with a good block heater good battery and clean terminals they"ll start, and frankly I have never heard of any starting issues with anything new, but we are talking about "seasoned" beauties here. Don"t forget to condition your fuel too, we know that it can gel which is a downfall, but when you put drygas in your car, put "howes" or "power service" in your diesels.

Diesel engines are by and far superior, plus you get to smell that sweet high speed diesel exhaust and listen to the "mellifluous cetane symphony," as you are pulling hard.

That is my opinion, i don"t mean any offense to anyone, but we do have some paradigm shifts ahead of us, honestly bio-diesel, and ulsd are things that we need to embrace. And i think diesel engines should be offered more readily at the consumer level, not just industrial and marine. I drive a diesel vw tdi, 54 mpg on the highway, high 40"s around town. Why isn"t there a small pickup made like that, or further why doesn"t an american auto maker make a diesel?

Who knows.

 

[phillip d]

My neighbour has a brand new quad cab dodge,heated leather,power nose picker,and to top it all off,a 325 hp cummins diesel linked to an automatic.What a beautiful ride.25 mpg,how many hemi's can boast that milage in a 3/4 ton?Go like a scalded dog too.I believe many everyday car shoppers don't want to pay extra for diesel regardless how great they are,especially now that diesel is charged,not costs,higher than gas.Untill the VW'S wake them up with higher sales,I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a diesel G-6 sedan.pd

 

[L.C.Gray]

I'm with you up to a point.

The Europeans are about 50/50 on gas/diesel production. They have one part of it down right though, over there you don't pay a significant premium for the diesel version of the same vehicle.

Over here the manufacturers have consumers buffaloed into paying 6 to 8 grand more for the same truck, just for the different engine nad equipment groups that go with it. Its no longer worth it, you can't ever break even on it. I drove diesels back when folks would call you stoooopid for doing so. I love 'em!

Last time I traded I went back to gas. I refuse to pay the premium for the engine anymore, but as long as everone else does they'll keep on charging it and going up.... good ol' supply and demand.

 

[Walt Davies]

We did have a couple small diesel pickups but they were stopped for import do to not be able to meet the smog regs.
A friend of mine quite few years ago had a Dodge Colt that got 50 MPG and had great horsepower I think it was only made for 1 or 2 years.
Walt

 

[Anonymous-0]

It's all in the auto makers and the oil boys. The oil boys can't make their mega bucks if eveyone is driving a 45mpg diesel. Thats why the mpg on the " big 3 " has went down over the last 8-10 years. The oil boys want to make more $$$. But I also noticed that the Tundra and the Titan are also on the low mpg band wagon. As far as reliability goes, you get good and bad no matter what the hood emblem is. I will say this much.... 2 of the most reliable AMERICAN diesel engines are the early 90's Cummins and 7.3 Power stroke. I know several of each with well over 300,000 on original engines. I personally would love to see a 1/2 ton pick up with a 4 cyl diesel. Just my .02, sorry about the long post.

 

[farmer boy]

GM is planning on coming out with a smaller diesel in 2009. I'm skeptical of some of the claims they make about the engine such as 310 HP and 520 ft lbs of torque but so far they do plan on building it. As far as I'm concerned a properly running diesel is far,far superior to any gas engine. It's also a lot nicer sounding. You can never really break even but it is worth it if you do alot of heavy towing.
WIKI 4.5 GM diesel

 

[Spook]

I work for GM, and I have asked our plant managers about a 4 cyl diesel truck or car for years. I have been consistantly told that according to marketing studies, they don't think they can sell enough to make it worthwhile. Also worries about California emissions. I don't agree, but my opinion and a quarter buys a cup of coffee at the plant!

 

[Anonymous-0]

The EPA and CARB don't like diesels. They change the emission rules on a whim so the automakers won't invest the engineering and set up costs if it could be outlawed at a moments notice.

 

[JDemaris]

You ask why Ford doesn't make a diesel Ranger? They did, and hardly any sold - so they dropped it - it had a Mazda 2.2 diesel. The little Escort was also offered here in diesel. Dodge offered a 1/2 ton truck with a Mitsubishi 6 cylinder diesel - and again, hardly any sold. GM sold S10 trucks with 2.2 diesels which also didn't sell well. GM is the only U.S. company to attempt making their own diesels for light-duty use. Some were awful (Olds 4.3 and 5.7 series), some pretty good (Detroit Diesel 6.2s) - but sales of light trucks and Blazers fell off fast. One bail-out was the Army buying a bunch -starting with 60,000 of them in 1984. In 1982 Chevy/GMC sold 10,000 diesel Blazers. 1985 they sold 2100, and by 1991 they only sold 92 of them and dropped it.
Diesel engines are not inherently rugged and not all are terribly efficient. Diesel fuel though, weighs more than gas and there is more BTU energy in a gallon of diesel. Most diesels are rugged because there's more bucks spent on them and they are intentionally built to last. There are some diesels that are less rugged then some gas engines - when the extra money isn't spent - and they are short-stroked to behave like gas engines.
The US public had it's chance with exposure to diesels and pretty much turned its collective nose up at the prospect. Now - with the new emissions regs - it's close to impossible to come up with a diesel car that's worth having. Jeep tried selling a diesel Liberty a year or so ago - few sold and fuel mileage not very impressive.
At this moment (unless something changed in the past few weeks) nobody offers a pure diesel car that is legal in all 50 states. Mercedes is the only company to even try - and to do so - their car must be run with an aux. chemical injection tank to keep diesel emissions down.
Overseas there are many fuel efficient small turbodiesel vehicles. None will meet the U.S. emissions regs - and even if they did - few would be bought here unless the performance was upped - and then fuel mileage would go down. Ask yourself - with all the moaning and groaning recently about fuel prices - how many drivers do you see changing to smaller vehicles - or driving slower? Not many, I bet. How many people are buying cars with smaller engines? Again, not many.
GM is working on a gasoline powered diesel - that has the benefits of compression ignition - bugt also the lower emissions since gasoline is the fuel. Will it work - who knows?
In regard to your Volkswagen - I find a consistent 54 MPG hard to believe. I've been driving them for years - since they first came out - and have three right now. Yes, I've gotten a little over 50 MPG on rare occasions on a flat highway - but mine all have an overall highway average of 45 MPG and 38 MPG around town. I have two 1981 Chevy diesel Chevettes and they do almost as good - 43 MPG and 37 MPG. My 1985 Isuzu 4WD mini-truck with 2.2 diesel gets 27 MPG - highway or city - makes no difference. My Ford Ranger 2WD with 2.2 diesel gets 34 MPG highway.
My Mercedes 300D only gets a best of 25 MPG - which doesn't even do as well as many faster gasoline powered cars. My 82 Chevy 4WD 1/2 ton truck with a 6.2 diesel does almost as well as the Mercedes - it's gotten 24 MPG on a long flat highway.
Don't get me wrong - I'm am advocate of diesel - but not an advocate of the current U.S. versions. If we could cut back on the regs, and get some simple, easy-to-work-on, fuel-efficient diesels - I think it would be great. But, it can't and won't happen - not in this country. At least in Canada, citizens are allowed to buy many of the Eurpean diesels if brought in used (not new) - but we can't have any in the U.S.
If someone really wants a simpler, small diesel rig - there are still plenty of older ones to be fixed up and driven. I've got over 50 - more than a lifetime supply for me - since I'll be dead in 30 years - or less. But, if diesel keeps on getting much higher than gasoline - not sure it will be worth it. And maybe it's my imagination, but I seem to be getting worse fuel mileage with the new ultra-low sulfur diesel. I wonder if the BTU content has changed.

 

[Anonymous-0]

It probably has a lot to do with the oil companies. There is no reason why they can't make a low emission smaller diesel. You don't see any gas semi's on the road. If the same R&D was put into a passenger diesel as a large diesel, it would be possible to have more diesel cars and light trucks. I worked in a shop that built winch decks on new semi's. I was amazed that the trucks had absolutely no black smoke and the exhaust stack was perfectly clean, as if the truck had never been running. Maybe the cost to develop this technology is the inhibiting factor. Diesel pick ups cost a lot more than gas. Diesel cars that are way more expensive might not sell. A lot people don't like the smell of diesel. Maybe trucks like the diesel ranger were ahead of their time. Dave

 

[I wanna Farmall]

Both tractors we have had are diesals and i love em. Coldest its gotten is 20s ye far, and they start fine. I'll be looking for a truck in a few years (2) and if i got the chance and money i would love to find an old diesal. But with all my years of experience in the matter....... (smiles)

 

[Pair-a-dice farm]

I think you nailed it. With diesel 25-30 cents more than gas it would take 200K miles to break even. Unless you drive a lot of miles or are towing all the time it don't work. The life of a gasser is much longer now and will last almost as long as the rest of the car. I had a diesel truck that I loved but buy gas now.

 

[mf40-me]

Wow, I have posted questions in the past and nary got a response, but in a couple hours to get this many comments it must be touchy.

Of course i have realized that we have made several diesel vehicles over the years, however i believe that driven largely by the oil companies automakers might have purposely made a subpar offering, to keep americans away from the fuel savings. Most people when asked say they stink, their loud and clunky, or that they never start. I know several people with late model duramax's powerstrokes and cummins that have never had a starting problem.

And of course, i also know that we are playing by another set of regulations with emmisions than the rest of the world is, and to a certain extent this is good, however to ban a car like the vw tdi's and others like it i think is ridiculous. Yes, my emisions are not as good, but 50 plus miles to the gallon cannot be overlooked! (and yes, it was sort of an exageration for the sake of the argument, i have gotten 53.8 mpg, with one particularly good load of fuel on the highway. Normally i get 46/ 50 mpg town/highway summer, and 44/ 48 in the winter)

We have the ability to make great high speed engines, caterpillar and cummins, and now some of our medium and slow speed diesels are getting cleaner.

It just disappoints me that we don't allow, or demand more. Yea, I want that Dodge Cummins, but man what do the people do that pay for them? I have an above average paying job, and i couldn't dream of buying a new one, I suppose you just finance your life away. This of course has nothing to do with the argument.

The clean ones are there, and i think they will be easier than the infrastructure of hydrogen.

Plus, nothing sounds like a 645 series EMD, or a 3406B Caterpillar, or a TM 410 Stork Wartsila, or a screaming 4-53 Detroit, or last but by far not least my own 3-152 Perkins.

I just love em

 

[Anonymous-0]

mf40-man, I am glad you like your deisel but there is no free lunch. Diesels cost more and weigh more and usually are much more expensive to fix. Every 40,000 miles when you change the timing belt and tensioners on that tdi of yours it will cost you enough to have sent a similiar sized gas car about 12500 miles down the road. And good luck finding that required 0W-20 synthetic oil at anything like a reasonable cost. I am not sure where VW diesels aren't avaliable but you can buy them in California, a mistake I will never make again. I'll stick with gas cars with timing chains, thank you, but I am glad you like your diesel. Please report back at 200,000 miles and let us know how it went.

 

[mf40-me]

I can tell you dislike diesels. Who told you to do a timing belt at 40k? the manual i have says 60, and i replaced it at the time with one good for 80 more. Not sure, so don't get even more hostile sounding, but i think you might have a hard time finding a new car with a timing chain. I believe most have belts now, the tdi is more expensive because you have to time the injector pump, but i guess that would fuel your fire even more.

We cannot buy new ones in maine, because we are trying to uphold california emissions, which makes no sense if you can buy a new one there.

 

[RobMD]

I don't understand? Who would blast a diesel engine? Keep in midn though, that if the density of diesel vehicles were suddenly to increase, diesel would be 5 or 6 bucks a gallon. It is more sensitive than gas prices.

 

[buickanddeere]

http://www.bestjapancar.com/over15y.htm and etc
There is a good selection of low mileage/salt free diesel vehicles at reasonable prices.
The strict annual Japanese safety inspections eliminate clunker vehicles.
Even the little kei 4x4 trucks make a good ATV that is 100% road legal.

 

[Anonymous-0]

I think alot of the reason is that alot of the earlier diesels offered by US auto companies were only slightly better than junk and their reputation is still hurting diesel sales today. I know more than one person who won't buy a diesel because of a prior experience with a GM 5.7 or 6.2L or the Navistar 6.9L even though those engines aren't comparable at all to what's been on the market for the past 10 years. I have a '99 Dodge 2500 with the Cummins and really never even considered a full size gas truck although at today's fuel prices I might consider it for a second or two. My Dodge gets the same mileage as the Ford Ranger I had before, maintance costs might be slightly higher than on a gas engine but it's generally less often. As for cold weather operation if you look at the vehicles and equipment that HAVE to run in cold weather like emergancy and snow removel equipment it's almost 100% diesel powered so I would consider cold weather operation a consideration but certainly not a problem. Diesel is really what makes things happen in this world when you look at the big picture.

 

[JDemaris]

I was working as diesel mechanic when the GM Oldsmobile diesels came out - and yes - they were junk. After GM settled a law suit, the replacement DX-block 350 diesels came out as warranty replacements and were a lot better.
But - I have to argue about your statements in regard to the Detroit Diesel 6.2s and the IH 6.9s. Both pretty good engines when used for what they were made for.
GM had Detroit Diesel design, from the ground up - the 6.2 as a low-power, light-weight power equivalent to the 305 gas engine. And for that - it works very well. I have two that made it over 500,000 without the engines ever being torn down.
One of my daily drivers is my 83 Blazer that currently has 425,000 miles on it and runs perfect. It tows a camper every summer, plows snow all winter, etc. Best plow rig I've ever had.
The Ford-IH 6.9 is a much heavier built engine than the GM 6.2 - and was never offered for light-duty vehicles. It is a very durable engine and never suffered from the bad rap - like GM's 6.2 did. I still have two of those - and never had either apart. The 6.9/7.3 series has an excellent reputation for durability.
The Cummins 3.9 or 5.9 is a entirely different design - since it uses a long-stroke like more like a tractor engine.

 

[JDemaris]

25 MPG average highway? Come on, that's a little silly. Two farmer friends of mine have the same trucks - average summer highway mileage at 65-70 is 21 MPG and winter around 19. 25 MPG would be a very unusual event - maybe with a strong wind as someone's back?

 

[JDemaris]

You can buy a new diesel Volkswagen in California? What Volkswagen? They made a public statement last year - 2006 - that they cannot build a diesel that can meet the 2007 California emissions regs and would no longer sell them. I just read an update yesterday - and according to Volkswagen - nothing has changed.

 

[JDemaris]

I know several people that have built their own rigs - it seems to be getting more popular. I've got a 1995 Geo 4WD Tracker with a Volkswagen 1.6 diesel - and it gets almost as good mileage as the Jetta that the engine came from. There's a company in Canada that sells all the needed adapters which makes it an easy bolt-in swap.

My neighbor has a 89 Chevy Blazer and a 92 Chevy truck - both with 3.9 turbo-Cummins. It makes plenty of power and both rigs can get close to 30 MPG highway (usually 26-27 MPG). That's pretty good since the same rigs with GM 6.2 diesels got around 21 MPG at best.

 

[JDemaris]

That's at least one reason why I envy Canadians. We cannot take those rigs into the U.S. for road-use. Only allowed in Canada.

 

[Anonymous-0]

i have a 06 duramax with a utility bed full of tools a miller trailblazer welder set of cutting torches total truck wieghs in at 9680 lbs (this is a 3/4 ton truck) i get 17mpg at the best on interstate driving

 

[L.C.Gray]

Too often people just buy what they need to keep up with thier buddy down the block and never weigh out the total cost to own and operate and whether it actually is dollar wise.

Most of the guys I know who are driving the big fancy diesel crew cabs just have them for the sheer road warrior status and rarely pull or haul anyone or anything with them. About the same deal for all the 4x4 guys down here where it rarely ices or snows and they never leave the pavement.

These guys and the soccer moms who have to have a 3/4 ton 4x4 Suburban to drop the kids at kindy-garden are the ones who are killing the people who need a tough working truck. Thats when the trucks started going posh and puss with too many gizmos, too much interior and not enough suspension. But the market drives the manufacturer so thats what we get.

I miss the days of the real 4x4.... leaf springs, live axle and lockouts

 

[buickanddeere]

I suppose if the kei truck was Canadian plated, it could be driven on US roads?
The Provincial and Federal Government are giving both the 15 year tax exemption and the right hand drive an unfriendly look.
Seems the governments are missing out on some potential tax income.And it's another opportunity for the power tippers and empire builders to pass some more laws, inspection taxes etc.
They maybe getting leaned on by the auto industry as well. Citizens are purchasing these rust free play toys for 5-10 thousand. Instead of spending 30,40,50 thousand at the auto dealerships . Vendors of ATV's and other off road vehicles are not amused either.
I'll sit inside dry and warm with a locking kei cab for my hunting gear. With a 4'x7' cargo bed for $5000 instead of riding a one seater atv in the rain for $10,000.
At least your US government has yet to ban pointed sticks,blowguns, most hand guns, a bunch of semi autos long firearms from citizens as they are too dangerous for us canucks. Then register everything.
We can't even own .32's because they are "crime guns". The target shooters had an awful battle to get a small exemption.
We just lost the man that prevented an outright Canadian firearm ban. Dave Tomlinson r.i.p. .
http://www.nfa.ca/content/category/6/68/199/

 

[JDemaris]

I must admit, I'm not up-to-speed with Canadian gun laws. Back around 1976, I was living and working on the Canadian border in Northern Vermont. The Frenchys from LaBelle Province were bringing guns over to us - literally in bushel basket fulls -and I was buying many in the range of $25 each. Seems something was going on then and many Canucks were selling off their guns.

Now - in the U.S. - the latest gun-ban proposal (not passed yet) will ban all new private ownership of Ruger Minis - 14s or 30s, as well as SKSs, and many others. I'm hoping the day never comes when all this BS becomes retroactive - to people that already own these "dangerous" weapons.

 

[Spook]

I have a friend who has that truck, does load it down with tools, told me he has never seen 20mpg. Usually 16 - 17, tops. When he tows his trailer, it gets even lower.