ELECTRICAL QUESTION - kind of an emergency

Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
Ok, here's the deal, I am well aware that back feeding a service panel is against code, and has the potential of energizing the secondary, and the primary circuits back through the transformer, it violates code etc. etc. Well understood there.

However, and I hold no one responsible for any advice, we have some real serious problems here, this ice storm has created a bit of a disaster and I've got to do what I can here because the temperatures are supposed to drop into the teens.


Here's the deal, I've got a Miller NT 251 Trailblazer, 8500 watts continous, a quad 115 outlet and a single 240 30 or 50 amp outlet on it to provide power. I have 50 feet of AWG #6/3 to which I can wire up the 3 prong male plug, this is the largest conductor it will take according to the sheet. I can run this to an outlet inside the garage, which is as follows:

In the garage, I have a 250v/125v outlet, ( reading off the cover) that is wired circa 1978 gray conductor is labelled Alcoa - (must be aluminum) #4 AWG, assume it to be 3 conductor, with a ground, it goes another 50 feet or so to 1 of my pair of 200 amp breaker panels, that are fed by the main service line.

1.) If I were to backfeed to this panel, using the above scenario, assuming the conductor to be large enough to use, directly from the 240 or 250 outlet on my Miller NT 251, would in turn the branch circuits from the panel be 115 volts, if the panel is fed 250 from the generator. I assume so, but am no electrician.

2.) Ok, main breakers will be off, and no one but me is here, but as another precaution, I can cut the seal on the meter box and pull the meter. Will that effectively break the circuit, meaning it's wired in a series, ( if that is a reasonable way to describe it ) meaning once you un plug it, the circuit is open, cant be closed etc. and this eliminates the hazard, obviously bending the rules, but we are in a real jam here.


3.) The intended load on the branch circuits are an oil fired over hot water furnace, well pump submersible type, 1 refrigerator, 1 lighting circuit, all these are 15 or 30 amp breakers. This is all I need to keep things going here.

Aside from the obvious, if this scenario is a serious hazard, I won't do it, however, if it will work, as described, I need to know, cannot take a chance with frozen pipes etc. and I've got an elderly person here, my mother, to look after, other wise I'd rough it out, or could just go with a bunch of heavy duty extension cords, directly, still won't get me water or heat, kind of has my back to the wall.

Again, one time I could really use some sage advice, be it good or bad, I've got to consider this option due to the circumstances.

Hopefully anyone else in this mess is coping, most of us are still in the dark as to the extent of the damage and how the power company is doing on the restoration, is what it is, time to dig in here and ride this out.
 
you can run it in to the outlet if it has two hot legs and a neutral and you will get 240/120 at the panel. Better make shure youre hooking hot to hot and neutral to neutral. In other words make sure youre cord and outlet are wired the same. Be sure to turn off the main. Pulling the meter would break the circiut, but my power company will fine me for breaking a seal. Use your best judgement, because that would make it safer. BE CAREFUL
 
Usually I would just wire it in directly to the panel by undoing a 240v breaker. Your number six cord will safely carry 40 amps, so find a suitable breaker, unhook the wires from it, wire your two hot legs to the breaker, run the neutral to the neutral bar, and ground to the ground bar. I think that is usually easier than using a plug. Still turn off the mains.
 
I hear, you, the last thing I would want to do is put a lineman in danger, I've known a lot of them, many of the old timers, people think they have a cush job, days like today, they earn every bit of it.

It appears to have 2 hot legs and a neutral, if I follow the diagram and what is existing, I should be fine, 2 hot legs wired to the plug ends same as what is there, just continued to the generator.

I've pulled them before, when someone who was supposed to pay the bill, did not, got shut down, carefully broke the seal tags, pulled the meter, took off the plug end boots/covers and re-installed the meter, power back on, seal tags were easy to make them look like the had not been cut, fine me, better than broken pipes, and if that cuts off any chance of back feeding power to the grid, then I may have to do this.
 
We have a small generator that we hook up to a 30A 240v double breaker, and as long as I shut off the main before turning on the generator circuit there is no way I am sending power out to the grid. Best of luck to you with the generator.
Zach
 
If I understand you correctly what you are proposing will provide 230/115 to your branch panels.

The #6 copper drop cord from the generator and the #4 aluminum will hold 50 amps. I assume the plug in the garage is a 50 amp?? If so it will look sorta like one you plug a stove into.

I would turn off all breakers in all the panel boxes except the ones you want to run. Even then you may have to turn them on one at a time. The generator may not have enough peak output to start the well, heater and fridge at the same time. Probably won"t, you might even have to phase things in and out (Just run one at the time)

Definately turn off the main breaker. Pulling the meter will completely disconnect you from the power company. I will leave that one to you. It is definetly the safest bet and will ensure that noone in the house flips on a main and tries to energize the power company.

I know your in a tough spot, and you have a plan that will work just make sure you stay around and sleep with one eye open, and keep an eye on everything. Without knowing you, what scares me the most about your situation is the hurrying and the sense of urgency and that can lead to bad mistakes. Good Luck..

Peabo
 
Sounds like Morgan has addressed your issues. I can only share my experience.
I backfeed my service through a welder plug 240V 50A. I turn off the main and welder rec. breakers-fire up the gen.-snap on the welder rec. breaker. I can't tell you what the elec. co. would say, except to abide by the law! Maybe placing elec. tape across the turned off main with a note in case anyone else happened to want to mess with it? I am confused by your main(s)? Two 200 amp breakers? My 200 amp service has one 200 amp main. Can you make absolutely sure you're not hooked to the line without removing the meter?
 
I think what you have suggested will work OK. You will have two circuits each energized with 120 Volts to neutral with 240 Volts between the two circuits. This should run everything you have that's 240V and everything that is on 120V. Just make sure you disconnect yourself from the main line. I just talked to a real electrician and he says go!!
 
Billy you have it covered, we get to do this alot in Missouri, directly under my meter is a disconect, but if you do not have one, I like you would pull the meter. Be careful on that ice, it is dangerous, be careful and God bless you.
 
Between you and me,I run the whole farm when the power goes off by using a double male plug,one end in the generator,the other plugged in to the welder outlet in the garage. I turn off the main 200 amp breaker in the top of the main service box. End of story. Works great. I've had it going continous for as long as three days before.
 
Billy,
It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to install a transfer switch in the near future.They are not terribly expensive and takes out any chance of cooking anything.
Wish you all the best.

Vito
 

The nutural wire carries the unbalanced load. Pulling the meter or turning off the main breaker
will not open the nuterural. Therefore cuasing an electrical hazard to anyone working on the line. I just run extension cords from the genset to refrig or what ever neede power at the time. Be careful.

steveormary
 
Quote "to which I can wire up the 3 prong male plug." Unquote
How are you on the internet with the power off?
A problem unaddressed here is that you are energizing the bare ground wire, using it as a current carrying conductor.
At best the voltage drop on the ground conductor will leave everything connected to ground. A few volts above true earth potential. Livestock won't be drinking from any anything grounded. Or touching anything grounded without a fuss.
I've seen grounding systems with high resistance connections and/or open connections. If that is anywhere in your system. You can be bitten with 120V between "grounded items" and true earth. And even between two "grounded items". Also your 120V loads will see anything from a smoldering to a smoking 1 to 239 volts.
I have to ask everybody here? Why have you yet to install a proper transfer switch after being told for years? "Install a transfer switch or wish you had before it's too late."
If you want to make this "farmer fix" work "better". Connect the four pin stove receptacle where there is a proper neutral and ground.
Why can't some of you get it through your heads? Ground and neutral are not the same thing?
 
The nuteraul is a grounded conductor and carries the unbalanced load.The ground wire is the grounding conductor and removes voltage spikes from the circuit.

steveormary
 
Billy, First of all your home service and that service entrance panel is for 120/240 volt single phase 3 wire. Iffffffffff the generator is indeed the same, basically a single phase transformer which has 240 volts between its ends L1 to L2 and has a center tap that serves as the Neutral, YES if its connected such that its L1 and L2 feed the panels L1 and L2 (which it will if it serves a 240 volt Receptacle) 240 volt loads served from the panel youre backfeeding will indded "work"

The next thing is your generators Neutral needs to be tied to your panels Neutral if you want the 120 volt loads on BOTH legs of your panel to work when backfed from the generator. To do that by backfeeding a receptacle you would need to use a receptacle THAT HAS AN ISOLATED NEUTRAL AND I DONT MEAN THE BARE/GREEN EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR. The problem is most common 240 volt 3 pole grounding receptacles are for 2 hots and an equipment grounding conductor and DO NOT have a Neutral terminal. To have 2 hots and a Neutral plus an equipment grounding conductor you would need a 4 pole receptacle !!!!!!!!!!!!!

NEXT Its my best guess that Generator you have has its Neutral bonded to its iron frame and the NEC allows it to serve plug n cord connected equipment WITH NO OTHER GROUNDING SUPPLIED TO THE GENNYS IRON FRAME. However, if you were doing this properly and wanted to use just a 2 pole transfer switch (switch the 2 hots but NOT the neutral) the service and gennys Neutral would be bonded BUTTTTTTTT you would be required TO DISCONNECT THE NEUTRAL TO IRON FRAME BOND IN THE GENERATOR

SOOOOOOOOOO my reason in explaining all this is merely to point out the problems I see youre running into in backfeeding a receptacle are that I suspect youre going to be mixing Neutral (a grounded conductor) and Equipment Grounding Conductors (a grounding conductor) AND THAT CAN CREATE A HAZARD under certain sets of circumstances

NOTE Im NOT saying this wont work, Im only saying I dont think youre correctly dealing with all the Neutral versus equipment grounding conductor issues let alone the fact that the generators Neutral would NOT be bonded to the frame as described above.

Of course removing the meter will isolate what youre doing from the utility for safety as would throwing the panles main breaker.

Again, what youre doing can work but there are Neutral versus Ground issues but since what youre doing is already a violation I guess a few more may not be of concern??

Just be careful n stay safe and it sounds like youre well aware of preventing backfeeding the utility so thats one hazard youre preventing

Best wishes n God Bless

John T Longggggg retired electrical engineer and rusty as an old nail on the NEC but do my best to help yall
 
Steve, The purpose of the Equipment Grounding Conductor is to provide a dedicated low impedance current return path for FAULT CURRENT so the breaker will trip to save a life or prevent a fire ITS NOT for noise or spike suppression although it could indded do some of that.....

John T Retired Electrical Engineer
 
Everyone thinks if they throw the main breaker that they're safe.

WHAT ABOUT THE GROUND?????

MY GOD!!

I know alot of people do it.

I'm planing on wiring up a small circuit in my house to an outside outlet just to run a couple of lights and a heater from the small generator outside. Not hooked into my electrical service at all.
 
Everyone thinks if they throw the main breaker that they're safe.

WHAT ABOUT THE GROUND?????

MY GOD!!

I know alot of people do it.

I'm planing on wiring up a small circuit in my house to an outside outlet just to run a couple of lights and a heater from the small generator outside. Not hooked into my electrical service at all.
 
B and D don't 90% of all houses get the ground and the neutral from the same bar in the breaker panel box.

Sooo if you are feeding the neutral to the breaker box gr/nentral bar from the genny and the breaker box has a proper ground rod installed isn't it all the same.

New code calls for a seperate ground bar from the neutral bar but hardly any of the houses built 10 years ago and before have it. And they all work just fine.

What am I missing in what your trying to say?

Gary
 
If all that is true then why are the neutral and ground wire connected together at both ends. At the equipment used and the main box. My nephew who has a degree in Electrical engineering and installs solar systems was up here and was rewiring my house. We both laughed about the phony ground wire that seems to do nothing but sell wire.
In Oregon the power companies have to run a ground between every pole and ground it to the earth. They complain a lot about the waste of wire.

I know a lot you experts have bought the ground wire thing hook line an sinker but stop and think about what it actually does.
The older electrical things only had two wires and they ran very good. But if you plugged them in backwards the outside of the metal case became hot. The 3 prong plug made this imposable to do this if the house was wired correctly. PS a neutral wire is not needed on 220 equipment only on 110 because you have to use one hot and a ground to get 110. If you don't believe this then take light hook up one wire to center and the other wire around the outside and push it into the ground, the light will work quite well.
This won't work on your car because the battery is the power source and needs to make a complete circuit back to negative post.
Walt
 
I'll tell you what my inspector told me. I bought the meter base so I own it. It is their meter in there. They locked my base so I have every right to open it up if I want to. Unlawful part would be to tamper with the meter or pull it and jump across the leads... steal power. I asked the power company (AEP) and got a long answer but he finally spit out the fact that it was my base and I could do as I pleased with it so long as I didn't tamper with anything of theirs. The reason I asked the inspector was in case I had a fire and needed to kill power to the house since I don't have a disconnect from meter base 'till I get to my panel in the basement.
 
B and D don't 90% of all houses get the ground and the neutral from the same bar in the breaker panel box.

No, wrong question.

Sooo if you are feeding the neutral to the breaker box gr/nentral bar from the genny and the breaker box has a proper ground rod installed isn't it all the same.

No.

New code calls for a seperate ground bar from the neutral bar but hardly any of the houses built 10 years ago and before have it. And they all work just fine.

What am I missing in what your trying to say?

Gary

Voltage drop which raises the grounding system to above true earth potential.
Open grounds.
A ground rod in most soil. In particular frozen, dry or sandy soil has 10's to 100's of ohms resistance.
Why does code stipulate the use of an insulated line 1 , insulated line 2, insulated neutral and a bare ground? To the stove,clothes dryer and from generator plugs etc?
 
If all that is true then why are the neutral and ground wire connected together at both ends.

Not supposed to be connected at both ends. The neutral is only to be bonded to earth potential at the hydro services 1st distribution panel.


At the equipment used and the main box. My nephew who has a degree in Electrical engineering and installs solar systems was up here and was rewiring my house. We both laughed about the phony ground wire that seems to do nothing but sell wire.

Send the kid back to school.


In Oregon the power companies have to run a ground between every pole and ground it to the earth. They complain a lot about the waste of wire.

They are complaining about cost between, "It works" vs. "doing it right".

I know a lot you experts have bought the ground wire thing hook line an sinker but stop and think about what it actually does.
The older electrical things only had two wires and they ran very good. But if you plugged them in backwards the outside of the metal case became hot. The 3 prong plug made this imposable to do this if the house was wired correctly. PS a neutral wire is not needed on 220 equipment only on 110 because you have to use one hot and a ground to get 110.

One line and neutral, not one line and ground. Running load current through ground/earth is looking for trouble as previously explained.

If you don't believe this then take light hook up one wire to center and the other wire around the outside and push it into the ground, the light will work quite well.

Low current load. Try it with 30 amps and start touching between the ground rod and true earth.

This won't work on your car because the battery is the power source and needs to make a complete circuit back to negative post.
Walt

Electrons flow from the negative post to positive post.
The chassis return system on vehicles causes much confusion when somebody trys to think an AC building service the same way.

Why pray tell do we run two insulated lines, an insulated neutral and a bare ground to the
stove and clothes dryer.

I can wire your entire house with porcelain fence knobs and barbed wire. Everything will "work" but is it "right".
 
John, you and all here are absolutely the most helpful people I know when it comes to a wide range of topics besides our old tractors.

Electrical is not my strong point, yet in my building construction management/general contracting career, I've dealt with it enough to highly respect all aspects electrical equipment, distribution, safety etc., but usually rely on someone who specializes in mechanical, electrical, plumbing, (M.E.P. as we call it) for more complex issues on job sites, same carries through with basic electrical theory for things in ones home.

I think I understand what you mentioned about that neutral, but to be honest I'm not well versed on what the neutral actually does, I'd think I would highly benefit from learning a little more about electrical theory, no doubt. I think my concern would be from the existing 250/125 3 prong outlet with the #4 AWG Alcoa conductor to the existing 200 amp panel, and I would definitely follow what you describe, there is a schematic on the 200 amp panel, I can figure out what type of existing conductor that #4 AWG ALCOA is and believe I could find a schematic for the Miller NT 251.

The conductor I bought has RED, WHITE and BLACK, and from the way I read the schematic in the receptacle package, the WHITE would be the neutral, RED & BLACK would be the hot legs, ( boy a set of those would be nice sight about now LOL !) but all humor aside, there is a conductor for the bare equipment ground, well at least the AWG 6-3 wire I bought has 3 #6 conductors and a #10 solid bare ground, to match the plug ends which are 3 vertical slots with the D or U shaped ground ??? 4 pole, has the 2 hot legs, the neutral and the bare ground. I bought the receptacle to match, but that #4 AWG ALCOA conductor could be the wrench in the works if that bare ground, 4th pole is not present, and you need it to the panel, that existing #4 AWG ALCOA would need to have that 4th conductor,not sure if it does and please correct me if I am wrong about this.

My existing receptacle in the garage is 3 slots only, one vertical slot with the other 2, like a dryer or range plug,receptacle kind of looks like a letter Y, says 250/125 volt - 5O amp, is also on a 50 amp breaker at the 200 amp panel. I figured the right thing to do would be to switch that receptacle out to match the generator and plug ends so they are all the same, thinking now, unless the existing matches, I'd be better off, (safer) going straight to the panel if I understand correctly, as the existing may not have the equipment ground. OOFFLA ... long day here, but I think I understand this a little better, much appreciated your and everyone elses input on this.

Looking back into the bonding to the iron frame on the generator, this confuses me a bit, but I think the generators schematic would help here, I never thought of this scenario with the 2 pole switch, I do know this generator is compatible to be wired into a residential service, and I think there is a schematic for this application.
 
what if when you turned the main breaker off you pulled the incoming neutral out from under the lug. would that not sole the back feeding problems through the neutral?
 
I agree, and is why I posted here, one thing I appreciate is the fact that no one here is shy about laying it out as they see it, on the table in front of all, this neutral/ground arrangement is important, and needs to be done right, as well all other aspects, electricity is nothing to fool with.

I had to run an extension cord to a surge protector, to get powered up directly off the generator, getting online was strange, this old dial up line gets 56,667 bps, and still does an ok job for internet access, cable was out, but the analog line kept fading and my ISP kept timing out, until finally the line stabilized or something.

I also agree, better to bite the bullet and do a job right, this farmer fix scenario is now going to result into a dedicated stand alone back up generator to feed both 200 amp panels, large enough to cover the total overall loads + whatever you need over that, so the continous rating covers all start up requirements etc. Time to spend some money, getting some numbers for it hired out and installed vs. buying direct, and having an electrician wire it up, and the latter is usually the most cost effective way.

In the interim, all aspects considered, I had to give this some serious consideration, it's all I have at the moment, by the same token, overloading or creating unsafe conditions take first priority, if it can't be done, so be it, I'll get through this some how.
 
That is going to happen, going for the complete set up, dedicated generator, transfer switch et., rode these power outages out too many times now.

For this interim set up, I did not consider a switch, 60 amp disconnect or something similar ?? That would let me idle the generator and power up via a switch, and once the switch is closed, the generator would automatically throttle up vs. plugging in directy at both ends, no switch with the branch circuts open, would be the only other option I suppose, if they ( breakers ) were closed and a load on them, that would arc and or surge when you plug in would'nt it ??
 
Yeah, same as a stove, dryer or AC powered welder, that is what this receptacle was originally intended for I think.


You make a good point, yeah keeping a fire going in the stove, rigging up this generator, you can get distracted, but I don't like rushing or hastily taking action without thinking things out thoroughly. Onc wired up, I'd run this intermittently to get the house warm grab a shower, fill the toilets etc. no way I'm headed for the sack without that stove mellowed out and that generator OFF. Situations like these, one must stay calm and rational, the other way is an invitation for trouble.
 
Well, the power company actually called on the landline, stated they are committed with line crews round the clock, and wanted to let us know, guess what, it came on about 10 PM.


You know, it's odd, while picking up supplies today, I spotted a pendant on the pavement, one depicting the virgin mary, has some words around the perimeter of it, so I picked it up and put it in my pocket, no way to figure out who it belongs too, or where it came from, ( well says Italy on the back ) and I kind of really don't discuss religion with anyone, just a private matter for me and the guy upstairs, but simple little things like this always get my attention and make one think, going to have to find a place to hang that up, a little faith goes a long way.

I highly appreciate and want to thank all who responded here, for some reason this circuit was repaired, but everything is dark in all directions, supposed to be hundreds of thousands still without power and with the temperatures dropping in the teens, we can only hope all are safe and sound somehow.
 
Both the neutral & ground wire need to terminate to earth, so they are both bonded to earth in the same (single!) location in the main box.

They are not bonded together any other place, or you ave a trap waiting to harm someone ro burn something down. maybe not today - but someday.

Think of your water system - one source of water comes into your house, it gets connected to your hot water heater. But you still get hot & cold water from the 2 different faucets at your sink. You can't interchange the faucets can you? Even tho the pipes are connected somewhere in your basement... One is hot, one is cold. You can't plumb them together any which way along the way & expect the hot & cold water to remain seperate, can you? Altho you would have _water_ from a faucet no matter how you plumbed it together, you need to do it right to get good hot and good cold water where you want it.

The _ground_ system is only there to protect you, and needs to always lead away from devices & metal things directly to the earth bond. Would be good if it is never even used, but if it is needed it _has_ to be wired right or bad things happen. In fact if it is wired wrong it can _cause_ the bad things.

The _neutral_ wire is part of the electrified circut at times and always needs to lead electricty back to earth.

If it were water, interchanging them or tying then together many times as you suggest would result in lukewarm water at all the faucets.

You don't want that.

Only with electricity the results can be shock or smoke, not just bad tasting water....

This does not address the original question on hot-wiring a generator setup. Just the diff between ground & neutral wire.

As to hotwiring the generator into a 3 prong plug - hope a lot of us are taking notes and prepare for this _now_ when we don't need it today, so we are prepared for it when we do need it. I understand 'this is an emergency & I need to do this even if it isn't quite code....'

But - ah - well shouldn't we all have prepared for this a little earlier? Plug things directly into your generator - that is how you are set up for with what you have. Doing this hotwiring stuff after it is needed - that's a person under stress working with items they don't quite understand & trying to make it all work....

Not trying to do salt into a wound. Just saying, now might not be the best time to try to figure out how to make electricity work safely. It's real easy to make electricity work - you can power things with only one wire & a ground rod - but how safe it is?

--->Paul
 
If there is only one panel in the house that both the generator and all of the loads are connected too then what you said is absolutely correct in that there is no difference because in that panel the ground will be tied to the neutral and of course there is a will be a ground rod that ties the neutral and ground conductors to earth ground.

Where the stickyness comes in is if there are two panels where one feeds the other. The first panel in series with the meter will have the neutral and ground tied together. Per the modern code the second panel will have 4 wires feeding it, 2 hots, 1 insulated neutral and 1 bare ground with the neutral and bare seperated.

If he hooks his generator to the second panel with only three wires (2 hots, 1 bare ground) then the 120V current will flow from the generator on the ground wire to the second panel and then back to first panel over the ground conductor where it will bridge over to the neutral conductor and flow back to the second panel to feed those loads. As long as everything is intact it works. There is a possibility of some stray voltage being present on the ground bus in the second panel to earth ground. I suspect that it would be minimal since I believe it would be mostly due to the 120V load current produced by the generator times the resistance of the copper ground conductor from the second panel to the first panel. That resitance will be very low.

The danger comes in if the ground conductor opens up between the second panel and the first panel. In that case the ground bus in the second panel would be energized with at least 120V and if the ground bus is energized then everything that is connected to it is energized as well like dryer frames, stoves frames, etc.

Now in an emergency situation he can just live with the risk or he could temporarily bond the neutral and ground together in the second panel, like you pointed out it was done that way for many years.
 
I do it that way too. Last winter ice storms took the power lines down 3 times for about 36hrs each. It was simple to do. When the power line guys came by I pointed out that there was a set of breakers off on the meter pole with my generator backfeeding through a welder outlet. They said no problem.
The in coming power lines only have 3 conductors, 2 hots and a neutral. If both of the hots are open, (main breakers off) how could there be any concern?
 
Billy, from your response I can see you heard what I said and are taking this seriously, this thread is gettin a lil long so I will just throw out a few things as a final statement hoping to educate yall:::: One cant explain in a few paragraphs here what it takes books and years of study to comprehend...

NEUTRAL First of all its A GROUNDED CONDUCTOR. Its grounded cuz in the service entrance panel its bonded to the ground buss i.e. its GROUNDED and its also a carrys current.........

Its necessary because its effectively the mid center point of a 240 volt transformer which is why from either end L1 or L2 theres only one half the voltage i.e. 120 volts, so thats how you get 240 votls PLUS two legs (L1 to N, L2 to N) of 120 volts from a 120/240 volt single phase 3 wire service.

Now, if all the 120 volt loads were perfectly balanced with the exact same currents on BOTH L1 and L2, there wouldnt be any Neutral current, HOWEVER it carries the loads imbalances otherwise.

GENERATOR. Its typical for a 120/240 volt single phase 3 wire portable generator that it supply plug n cord equipment and theres NOT any requirement that the frame be grounded. It has its Neutral bonded to its iron frame which serves as its own GROUNDING ELECTRODE SYSTEM...HOWEVER if you use such a generator as a backup to feed your home electrical system and DO NOT WANT TO USE A 3 POLE TRANSFER SWITCH (i.e. ONLY switch the 2 hots) then the generators neutral DOES NOT BOND TO ITS IRON FRAME (you remove that bond/jumper/connection). Also in such a case the gennys iron frame, as other non current carrying metal enclosures, is bonded to the EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR (the bare/green) THEREFORE WHEN USED IN THE SCENARIO ABOVE (remember theres danger in bonding a Neutral to the Equipment ground buss at places OTEHR THEN one single place at the service entrance) the generators Neutral to frame bond must be severed such that its iron frame is still safety electrically grounded (to bare/green equipment ground buss) and so that youre not mixing neutral and ground together AGAIN at a place downstream from the service entrance. One last time, the gennys N to G bond is severed,,,,,,the gennys Neutral needs to be bonded to your panels Neutral (so 120 and 240 both work) ,,,,,,,,,the iron frame of the gennys still needs itself to be grounded,,,,,,,,BUT YOU DO NOT want to re bond any N to G downstream from the service entrance SO REMOVE THE GENNYS N TO G

BACKFEEDING USING ONLY A 3 POLE RECEPTACLE

Same problem, a 240 volt 2 pole 3 wire grounding receptacle ONLY has 3 terminals, L1, L2, Ground........If you do what I think you intend YOU ARE MIXING NEUTRALS AND GROUNDS.
What you would need would be a 4 wire receptacle, 2 hots, Neutral, ground......

Without getting too long, if you mix n match neutrals and grounds at places other then the single points at the service entrance, and given the certain hazardous combination of open and shorted conductors YOU CAN ENERGIZE THE EQUIPMET GROUND SYSTEM so when you come on contact with a metal frame of an appliance YOU CAN DIEEEEEEEEE

The bare/green EQUIPMENT GROUND BUSS and the NEUTRAL BUSS are boned only ONCE at the service entrance NOT AGAIN DOWNSTREAM so you gotta be careful with these backfeeds and transfer switches and aux generator hookups.

Yall stay safe n have a Merry and Blessed CHRISTMAS its a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ and despite atheistic objections, its A FEDERAL HOLIDAY......

John T Long retired Electrical Engineer and a lil rusty on this stuff but still believe this will keep yall safe
 
Billy, from your response I can see you heard what I said and are taking this seriously, this thread is gettin a lil long so I will just throw out a few things as a final statement hoping to educate yall:::: One cant explain in a few paragraphs here what it takes books and years of study to comprehend...

NEUTRAL First of all its A GROUNDED CONDUCTOR. Its grounded cuz in the service entrance panel its bonded to the ground buss i.e. its GROUNDED and its also a carrys current.........

Its necessary because its effectively the mid center point of a 240 volt transformer which is why from either end L1 or L2 theres only one half the voltage i.e. 120 volts, so thats how you get 240 votls PLUS two legs (L1 to N, L2 to N) of 120 volts from a 120/240 volt single phase 3 wire service.

Now, if all the 120 volt loads were perfectly balanced with the exact same currents on BOTH L1 and L2, there wouldnt be any Neutral current, HOWEVER it carries the loads imbalances otherwise.

GENERATOR. Its typical for a 120/240 volt single phase 3 wire portable generator that it supply plug n cord equipment and theres NOT any requirement that the frame be grounded. It has its Neutral bonded to its iron frame which serves as its own GROUNDING ELECTRODE SYSTEM...HOWEVER if you use such a generator as a backup to feed your home electrical system and DO NOT WANT TO USE A 3 POLE TRANSFER SWITCH (i.e. ONLY switch the 2 hots) then the generators neutral DOES NOT BOND TO ITS IRON FRAME (you remove that bond/jumper/connection). Also in such a case the gennys iron frame, as other non current carrying metal enclosures, is bonded to the EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR (the bare/green) THEREFORE WHEN USED IN THE SCENARIO ABOVE (remember theres danger in bonding a Neutral to the Equipment ground buss at places OTEHR THEN one single place at the service entrance) the generators Neutral to frame bond must be severed such that its iron frame is still safety electrically grounded (to bare/green equipment ground buss) and so that youre not mixing neutral and ground together AGAIN at a place downstream from the service entrance. One last time, the gennys N to G bond is severed,,,,,,the gennys Neutral needs to be bonded to your panels Neutral (so 120 and 240 both work) ,,,,,,,,,the iron frame of the gennys still needs itself to be grounded,,,,,,,,BUT YOU DO NOT want to re bond any N to G downstream from the service entrance SO REMOVE THE GENNYS N TO G

BACKFEEDING USING ONLY A 3 POLE RECEPTACLE

Same problem, a 240 volt 2 pole 3 wire grounding receptacle ONLY has 3 terminals, L1, L2, Ground........If you do what I think you intend YOU ARE MIXING NEUTRALS AND GROUNDS.
What you would need would be a 4 wire receptacle, 2 hots, Neutral, ground......

Without getting too long, if you mix n match neutrals and grounds at places other then the single points at the service entrance, and given the certain hazardous combination of open and shorted conductors YOU CAN ENERGIZE THE EQUIPMET GROUND SYSTEM so when you come on contact with a metal frame of an appliance YOU CAN DIEEEEEEEEE

The bare/green EQUIPMENT GROUND BUSS and the NEUTRAL BUSS are boned only ONCE at the service entrance NOT AGAIN DOWNSTREAM so you gotta be careful with these backfeeds and transfer switches and aux generator hookups.

Yall stay safe n have a Merry and Blessed CHRISTMAS its a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ and despite atheistic objections, its A FEDERAL HOLIDAY......

John T Long retired Electrical Engineer and a lil rusty on this stuff but still believe this will keep yall safe
 
At the risk of oversimplifying what John T and B&D said, I think the main risk in using a ground as neutral is that you're relying on a conductor that has never had to carry any current to handle the maximum current that your generator can produce. You may have had a bad connection in that ground for years; it may not even be physically connected to the neutral bus. If the ground conductor fails under load, you could have a whopping 240 volts applied to one phase.
 
Put simply... yes, it will work.
Shut your main off.
Don't pull the meter base or you're in for a whole big heap of trouble there when it comes time to reconnect it, or they discover that the seal has been cut. This is the kind of trouble that requires electrical permits... and to get permits the rest has to be dragged up to modern code. Don't want to even go there....
I assume that the 240V outlet that you're plugging into is rated at 40-50 amp and I'm fairly sure that the welder won't make mroe than that, so you shouldbe fine.... but I'm no electrician either.
Just been in the same kind of binds as you're in.

Rod
 
You are right about my taking things seriously, and learning anything I can, and this discussionm has not only been very helpful, it's also very intriguing, I'm one of those people who hates not knowing what is... LOL which motivates me to learn quickly whenever possible, really appreciate all the help here.

What you describe, I've been able to understand, I think, neutral and ground bonded at the service panel only, if you don't use a 3 pole switch from the generator, without knowing I can match the existing circuit, as it might not have the equipment ground but should have the same neutral or can I match the 4 pole neutral to the 3 pole neutral, not sure what to do about the equipment ground if my existing circuit does not have it. This might sound absolutely ridiculous, but could you somehow run that equipment ground externally with the appropriate size conductor, temporarily back to the panel to match things properly, I know it would be best change the conductor from the receptacle to the panel, to match, say using 6-3 or larger but am working with what I have on hand, for a temp fix here. Well with the power back on and the fact that I'll be going after a complete back up generator set, which will include another back up, I will see what can be done to be able to use my welder as back up to that, with correctly wired, switched equipment as needed to do it right, this situation we have discussed may not ever need to occur.

Good learning discussion here just the same.

It would make sense to use a switch, and I think that might only be the thing I don't follow. If you wire in a transfer switch, both legs L1 L2 can be open and closed, the generators neutral stays bonded, to it's frame if you use the switch, not so if you use a jumper 6-3 and plug ends.

This is where I get confused as if you just ran the 6-3 w/equipment ground as a jumper, no switch, would'nt the neutral now be a closed circuit in both scenarios all the way back to the panel if it were still bonded at the generator and require that the generators neutral jumper be disconnected to meet the criteria of having it bonded only at the panel, to avoid being energized and creating the associate hazard? Just trying to understand the difference on that. What happens when you use a switch, is the neutral bonding just contained in a loop from the switch and short lenght of conductor to the generator, leaving the neutral from the load side of the switch only bonded to ground back at the panel for the run between the panel, using the existing #4 alcoa conductor, (*ECELLOY TYPE SE STYLE SEU TYPE XHHW COMPACT CDRS 300V TO GRD 3CDRS SIZE 4 AWG) If disconnected at the generator, basically current is flowing from the generator to the panel buss bar, if that neutral was still bonded, you are saying that when either of the legs becomes unbalanced the neutral balances it out, hence the reason to never mix that neutral with an equipment ground due to the equipment ground being energized, no argument there, that would not be good.

Thinking about this, and simplifying it, based on what I think I've learned here, I guess the main question was that can I safely wire from a 4 pole L1, L2, N and Grnd to a 3 pole 250/125 volt 50 amp receptacle wired with(*ECELLOY TYPE SE STYLE SEU TYPE XHHW COMPACT CDRS 300V TO GRD 3CDRS SIZE 4 AWG)to the panel ? Obvious after reading the nomneclature on the existing conductor it may not have the equipment ground ? Still have to consider the load on that 6-3 w/ grnd to alcoa #4 awg, assume that to be 4-3, with no eq. ground, but that I can control by jockeying circuit breakers and run what I can when I can, to make sure I don't draw too much current which I assume is measured in amperes. Some of this is simple to understand, but other parts take some time to absorb, good influence because I'll want to learn more on this to have a little better working knowlege, can't hurt that is for sure !

Don't mind me, not my strong point and like you say, kind of difficult to explain things that take years and experience to learn, this is true, no way I could explain what it has taken years to learn either, I find that to be true when it comes the to construction industry, there is an awful lot to learn and know, don't happen over night.

As I understand it:


Generator feeds out through a 4 pole female receptacle directly on the unit, I wire up a 6-3 with equipment ground pigtail to match with 4 pole male end to plug into the generator, then wire the other end to a transfer switch near the generator, then coming off that transfer switch with 6-3 & equip ground, I need to connect to or determine that I can connect to that existing 250/125 50 amp 3 prong receptacle wired to the Alcoa #4AWG, which does not appear to have an equipment ground using a matching 3 prong plug, 2 legs stay the same, neutral to neutral stays the same, assuming the switch has lugs or terminals for the neutral and it is always connected, now bonded at the generator and service panel, (need to know whether to disconnect that gen neutral bond depending on the arrangement - understood)


I know this is a bit redundant and lengthy, always seems to happen when there is a lack of sleep or down time, mind goes on over drive, thanks so much again !
 
I did something like this at a service station 2 years ago during an Ice Storm. I pulled the meter to feed the place power to pump fuel. Told the utility what we did. The ONLY fall-out was a BIG HONKING SEAL they used to resealed the meter. From the weather forcast for the beginning of neat week, I may have to cut the BIG HONKING SEAL to remove the meter.

Kent
 
That's a good example with the comparison with the water system.
Maybe add in the likes of a filtered and/or softened water system along with hot and cold sub system.
And interconnections say between the raw cold water for watering lawns. And the filtered cold drinking water with it's extra pressure drops along the way. This would cause most of the supply to now flow from the raw water supply to the drinking water tap.
Time for the Peptibismol.
 
I'm not an engineer. I repair/modify/design equipment and assist the engineers understand the difference between "real world" and theory.

Works fine as long the the engineers believe it was their idea that made the system work.
I know of a reactor vault de-humidifier system that didn't work for 15+ years. Because the engineer became all defensive about the failing system. And he worked harder to lie and coverup. Than it would have taken to properly upgrade or replace the system.
Those four multi billion dollar units will likely be shutdown forever when they get the remote inspection cameras in place. And see the corrosion due to "pride".
 
Some how that still doesn't make sense if you take two wires and tie them together at any point then stick one in the ground what is the reason for both wires.
Also we use an insulated wire for the neutral all the way out to main box then its an uninsulated wire from there to the ground.
WHY.

And what does that extra ground wire on the power poles do. It goes from nowhere to nowhere.
And why is is up so high when the small ground wire on the side of the pole is uninsulated where anyone can grab it. All I can is it make a good roost for the birds.
Also if we tie our neutral wire to this grounded system then why do we need the extra ground rod at the box.
Sounds a lot like over kill to me.
Walt
 
Some people can "see" electricity and follow circuits in their heads. Other's have to see how something works such as hydraulics or mechanical linkages.
Best I can say is you need to see the diagrams drawn out or a model system set up.
Every circuit path has resistance. The more current flowing, the higher the voltage drop.
The neutral current is to flow from the neutral connection of the load. Directly and without interruption or alternate paths to the center point of the service transformer's secondary windings.
Earth, dirt, grounding system is not to be used as a neutral current path. Doing so makes the grounding system have a voltage above true earth potential.
Again this is why we have livestock stressed, diseased and doing poorly when they try to drink. Or when they touch metal feed mangers, milking parlor equipment etc. When the ground system is energized.
 

Thanks John,that was what I was trying to say. I am or have been retired from the electricial field for about ten years now. (contractor) Ya'll be careful now and have a good Christmas.

steveormary
 
do it right put in a MANUAL TRANSFER SWITCH AND SAVE APOWER CO. LINE MAN FROM BACKFEED POWER .
the are not overly expenseive but then you can transfer and be up and running in a short time.
THINK SAFTY.
oldart
 
A bit late but here is a very good outdoor manual transfer switch. It even lets you add 4 or 8 extra breakers for outside receptacles/loads.
It simply bolts in after the hydro service meter.

http://www.reliancecontrols.com/ProductDetail.aspx?TWB2012DR
 

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