electronic ignition

[dcliffw]

i would like to change my t340 crawler to electronic ignition. 4 cyl. international. does anyone have any information on doing this on this machine? thankyou, dcliffw

 

[Lou from Wi.]

Try Pertronix(spelling),only thing I heard was,some are prone to more failure.Don't know for a fact,but just rumor.I was wondering the necessity of changing to electronic ignition?
Regards,
LOU

 

[Anonymous-0]

I have converted several tractors to it. When one of mine needs points, I change it over, it's about the same job as putting in a set of points and a condenser. You do want to make sure that your coil is 3 ohms resistance, I believe. Instructions in the box will tell you. I get mine from John Brillman, he travels to tractor shows, selling electrical and wire harness parts, nice fellow, Google Brillman Co, he's somewhere in Virginia. Tell him the make and model, and whether you've converted to 12 Volt, and polarity of the ground, and he can set you up.

 

[Anonymous-0]

I have converted several tractors to it. When one of mine needs points, I change it over, it's about the same job as putting in a set of points and a condenser. You do want to make sure that your coil is 3 ohms resistance, I believe. Instructions in the box will tell you. I get mine from John Brillman, he travels to tractor shows, selling electrical and wire harness parts, nice fellow, Google Brillman Co, he's somewhere in Virginia. Tell him the make and model, and whether you've converted to 12 Volt, and polarity of the ground, and he can set you up.

 

[tom Spivak]

I changed my old Baker forklift with 6 cyl. continental over and it would barely run before and starts and runs not bad for a totally worn out machine.

 

[rustyfarmall]

A tune up kit which consists of a new set of points, new condensor, and a new rotor will cost $10 to $11 and needs to be replaced maybe once per year if the machine sees regular use, or maybe every 5 to 10 years for machines that see only a few hours of use per year. Based on those figures, the Pertronix unit would have a payback period of what, 10 to 15 years? Will the Pertronix last that long before you need to replace some of the components?

 

[JDemaris]

Anything can fail over time. The problem with aftermarket kits e.g. Pertonix, is the likelyhood of not being able to find repair parts when you need them.

With an original system, now, and probably long into the future - you'll will be able to find parts pretty easy.

Not the case with small companies making proprietary components that only they make.

If somebody came out with an electronic breakerless kit for tractors that used mainstream automotive parts -with good support at any auto store, it would interest me a lot more.

Over the years, I've had to convert many tractors, autos,marine engines, and even pro-grade Sthil chainsaws back to breaker-points when parts for "special" breakerless systems became unavailable. I suppose the same will happen with Pertonix.

Even now - suppose tomorrow your ignition craps out with a recent Pertronix kit. Where are you going to find repair parts? If it had points, you could easily get parts locally.

 

[tom Spivak]

The idea is really is that if you want to avoid having to do points and condensor again, or have it fail when needed, (more down time) then electronic is the way to go.
I have never heard of them being failure prone myself,(if anyone has info to the contrary, please document) used it for many years and the engine just runs better than it ever did with points. Thats why the auto makers have switched.
It's a drop in unit on most engines.
Not much more money than buying a cap, rotor,points,condensor. I'm using Petronix and I think it's a good product.
Besides, if you ever thought it was going to fail then just keep the old distibutor and drop it in if you ever needed it.

 

[Bob]

There's NO comparison in spark intensity and reliability between the various "HEI" ignitions modern autos use and the pertronix "ignitor" units

 

[Anonymous-0]

Lou, Jd, When I converted mine, I saved the parts removed. The pertronix uses the same screw holes as the points, just requires removing the cam screw. If you have any doubts, by all means, save the hardware!

 

[JDemaris]

Auto makers switched because it became a mainstream, accepted, and supported technology, and helps adhere to Federally mandated emissions-regs.

There is no comparison between a Pertonix and auto-ignitions. Not much comparison in use either, between a slow running and intermittent-use tractor, and and a car capable of running over 7000 RPMs and being driven 10,000 miles a year.

Auto ignition is high energy and has aftermarket parts support all over the world. Can't say the same for Pertronix, and the other companies before it that have come and gone.

 

[oldtanker]

(quoted from post at 16:44:45 12/27/10) Auto makers switched because it became a mainstream, accepted, and supported technology, and helps adhere to Federally mandated emissions-regs.

There is no comparison between a Pertonix and auto-ignitions. Not much comparison in use either, between a slow running and intermittent-use tractor, and and a car capable of running over 7000 RPMs and being driven 10,000 miles a year.

Auto ignition is high energy and has aftermarket parts support all over the world. Can't say the same for Pertronix, and the other companies before it that have come and gone.

Points ands condenser is getting to the point that it ain't supported to well......ROFL!

Rick

 

[Bob Bancroft]

I have installed three(that I can remember). First one went in a neighbors MF 65 because he was having some issues. I installed one in my 1966 D600 dump truck 318, along with their hot coil to try to fight plug fouling. It didn't make any difference. The neighbor was so happy we put the kit in his other MF 65. One of them failed after the warranty was up(I think it was the second one). Fortunately we had saved the original parts and I reinstalled them.
I have four antique AC tractors with DR distributors, with points and cond. and they work fine.

 

[oldtanker]

(quoted from post at 16:44:45 12/27/10) Auto makers switched because it became a mainstream, accepted, and supported technology, and helps adhere to Federally mandated emissions-regs.

There is no comparison between a Pertonix and auto-ignitions. Not much comparison in use either, between a slow running and intermittent-use tractor, and and a car capable of running over 7000 RPMs and being driven 10,000 miles a year.

Auto ignition is high energy and has aftermarket parts support all over the world. Can't say the same for Pertronix, and the other companies before it that have come and gone.

JD hate to say it but that isn't the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

IE came into wide use in the auto industry in part because of emission regulation. But it really gained wide acceptance because at higher RPM's it gave better and more consistent spark because it eliminated point float. Add in the fact that you went from 12k tune ups to 45k and the 45k tune up was plugs and set the timing.

AS far as failure I have seen new points burn up in about 15 min of run time (not mine but another guy). His gap was correct. He failed to replace the condenser. I have a lot of time invested in maintaining old fashioned ignition systems. I also have a vehicle now that I drive 100k between tune ups. Thats way better to me than the good old days of points, plugs and condenser every 12k and checking the gaps every 6 plus have to set the dwell and timing every time.

Now as for the guys who collect and restore tractors or old cars I can see where they want to keep it stock. But I'm a user. I blew a knee out this spring right before I got my N. 4 months on crutches and I still put over 100 hours on that N this summer. I also have a 1206 IH. Now it's cold out (west Mn can get real cold). Plug the block heater in for a couple of hours and the 1206 with crank right up with a shot of starting fluid. Below about +10 and the N needs a little help with 12 volt. At -10 you can forget the N. I'm going to have to put a heater on it this summer. But I'm going to put 12 volt and IE on it too. I just can't be standing out there in sub zero temps trying to start that N.

Guess I'm saying that it's a case of each to his own. If I knew something just didn't work I would warn people off of it but with as many people who are happy with it why argue?

Rick

 

[JDemaris]

]

JD hate to say it but that isn't the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Rick

Since when is any brief comment on a forum like this - full length with all info possible? Your comment is not the "whole truth" anymore then mine was.

Electronic breakerless systems have been around since the 1940s. They were not accepted full-scale by US automakers until well proven, well supported with replacement parts, and needed to meet emissiion-longevity regs.

Pertrnonix is not a big company with good parts support all around the country.

In regard to breakerless fitting the needs for high RPMs. Yes. So did multiple racing magneto systems, dual points setups, dual distributor setups, capacitive discharge systems, etc.

 

[oldtanker]

JD I was just pointing out a few things.

But your most common dual ignition systems were aircraft where a failure could become a disaster. The were also used on a lot of the old gasser fire fighting equipment where again they couldn't have a failure. I don't know of (and I could be wrong) of any main stream production car sold to the masses from 1940 on that had a dual ignition system and don't just know about older than that. Yes some muscle cars came from the factory with dual point systems. All this leads me to conclude that point systems just were not that durable. Yes easy to fix....if you know how. When I was a young man in the early 70's I knew a lot of people who couldn't change their points and others who could but never got them set right. I can't remember the number of guys who changed their own points who never owned a dwell meter or timing light.

When EI came out in production cars people didn't know what it was. I knew people who were convinced it was a passing thing. Others who wouldn't buy a new car because they were convince it was junk and going to fail. About the only people who knew about it were the gear heads. And then only from what they had read. I was a young soldier back then. Married with a kid. I drove 45 min to work and had to be there at 5:30 Am and most days didn't get home till after 6PM. I really resented having to tune the car up instead of spending what little time I could with my wife and son. Now I'm and old retired Army guy with disabilities. With bad knees and back that front mount distributer is a pain in the butt. Sure if I only used the N for mowing lawn it would be OK. But mine is used to plow, cultivate, mow, bush hog, on a post hole auger, raking hay and maintaining a long farm drive. That's a lot of hours a year. It's a great tractor and I love it but I will not pretend that it was the greatest design ever. I will say after running Deer, AC and IH tractors that it was the best design of it's day. So what's wrong with making improvements? I don't want the payments that would come with a modern tractor that can do the same work. So I have to make it work for me. We are just now getting the family farm going again (dad retired in 83 and passed in 88). I didn't retire from the Army until 96. Then I just rented the land out but really wanted to farm it myself. This year I'm only plowing about 10 acres so the N will do the plowing. I don't have a plow for the 1206 yet and there are things I need more. The one thing I have is time.

We are warm today. +23! I was out and blew back a few drifts with the 1206 and 8' blower then used the N with back blade to do a couple of small areas the blower is just to big for. I did find out that the N runs much better with gas in it.....but I couldn't help thinking that live hydraulics would be nice instead of having to clutch raise the blade clutch and go. For some of the other stuff I'm doing hydraulic remotes would be nice too. With real cold starting I'd like to have 12 volt. When the N was designed 6 volt was the norm for most things. Even my dads R JD used 6 volt to start the pony. The 1206 uses 12 volt and is direct electric start. To be honest the 1206 is way overkill for what I need but the price was right. I could do everything here I need to do with the N and a 4000. I really hate the M because it's so clumsy. But the manure spreader when loaded is too heavy for the N so the M is here until I can replace it.

Guess I'm just saying that when someone has made the decision to upgrade the iggy or charging/starting system you don't have to tell em how dumb that idea is. This guy was asking how to do it. Not if he should.

Rick

 

[JDemaris]

Show me anywhere, in any of these forums where I've never said using a breakerless kit was "dumb."

You won't find it because I've never said anything close.

What I have said is - for some there is little to no gain. And, Pertronix is not mainstream and does not, nor will it ever . . have the parts support that auto igntions do.

 

[oldtanker]

(quoted from post at 16:46:37 12/28/10) Show me anywhere, in any of these forums where I've never said using a breakerless kit was "dumb."

You won't find it because I've never said anything close.

What I have said is - for some there is little to no gain. And, Pertronix is not mainstream and does not, nor will it ever . . have the parts support that auto igntions do.

No you have never used the work dumb but it comes across like you think they are dumb. Sorry for the way I put that.


I'd like to know what is mainstream. Most companies make/have had made for them thier own and keep changing the systems. I know out here in the sticks like I am if it isn't Ford, GM or Chysler no one is going to stock parts for an IE dizzy. It may be there the next day but yer gonna wait for it. One guy claimed he's been running his IE for 8 years with no problems. Another said he put one on that lasted just over a year. If it's designed right and they are using quality electronics to make it they should last for years.

Like I said I'm looking for the easy way. I'm running 17 different engines right now. Thats from the chainsaw up. I wish all of them were diesels or IE just to reduce the time spent maintaining things (7 of em points). Add in the rest or the equipment, the swather, baler, hay rake, the plow ect....ect...I spend a lot of time working on stuff so that I can work with it. Somehow IE makes sense to me. If I get worried about quality I'll order an extra or switch back to points.


Rick

 

[JDemaris]

I can run down to NAPA, Autozone, or Advance Auto - and get just about any part I want, for any standard electronic ignition system . . for a Ford, AMC, Chrysler, GM, Honda, Toyota, etc. - made in the past 20-30 years. Just about all availble from various aftermarket parts suppliers -and most major components "in-stock" and no need to wait for an overnight order.

I can also do the same for parts for systems with battery-breaker-points (Kettering System), or magneto, etc. going back to the 1920s and sometimes earlier.

I call that "main-stream." Automakers rarely take-on parts or systems for standard use unless they have some guarantee of Nationwide parts support. Odd-ball optional stuff can be different. Not sure how easy you'd find parts for a early 1960s "Delcotronic" breakerless system - but it was only offered as an option.

Take your Pertonix and get a failure, and I doubt you will be able to find any repair parts, or even complete kits locally - unless you're lucky.

I say one more time. I've never said anything close to being "dumb" for using any of the systems. But, when someone comes to these forums - and asks questions - seems legitimate answers are due. Not hyped up stories. Why hot offer facts and let people make their own decisions based on them.

Some people claim their tractors never started or ran well until they stuck a Pertonix kit in. That is rediculous. Name me one car or tractor that had such problems with the OEM system WHEN it was working correctly.

Some people claim that Pertronix gives much more spark energy. That is also NOT true. Pertronix makes at least three different versions, and some do not change spark potential at all.

I've had to rip out many "breakerless kits" over the years, and put back to original. That because no repair parts were available. Breakerless kits have been aorund since the early 1960s. Some used cathode-ray-tube, various optical sensors and shutters, some Hall-effect transistors, etc. Most have long come and gone.

So now you've got Pertonix. Do you truly believe they will always be around to sell repair parts when their total market for these kits is just old equipment?

If I had a gas-tractor that I had to use all day, every day - I'd prefer some sort of breakerless system. Not to improve performance. Just to avoid some maintenance.

But I don't use any of my gas tractors that way. Diesel runs much cheaper and ignition is done without any coil or breaker points. I do use my gas tractors and maybe, have to address the points every few years. Not exactly a big deal.

By the way, I just did a major tune-up on a 1977 Datsun 280Z sports-car. I checked availability of electronic igntion parts. All available from NAPA in 24 hours. Reluctor, ignition control module, etc. I call that good parts support thanks to the many aftermarket suppliers that support mainstream items.

 

[tom Spivak]

WOW! couldn"t have imagined this would be such a hot topic.
So, the real answer to the problem is, if you choose to do so, it is usually just a drop in distributor.
Or, buy a horse and grader blade, or, get some new points.
Simple

 

[oldtanker]

(quoted from post at 07:14:37 12/29/10)So now you've got Pertonix. Do you truly believe they will always be around to sell repair parts when their total market for these kits is just old equipment?

If I had a gas-tractor that I had to use all day, every day - I'd prefer some sort of breakerless system. Not to improve performance. Just to avoid some maintenance.

But I don't use any of my gas tractors that way. Diesel runs much cheaper and ignition is done without any coil or breaker points. I do use my gas tractors and maybe, have to address the points every few years. Not exactly a big deal.

I don't have one yet.......

I do have 2 gas tractors that get run all day. One every so often but the 8N every week.

One may be getting replaced with diesel (M may get upgraded to a 460D). The Ford 8N gets run a lot. 20+ hours a week. Right now with the farm stuff and many things we need to buy for it (keeping in mind we are trying real hard not to go to the bank income is US Army retirement and VA disability) the 8N will stay. Besides I have the N and a lot of implements for it (plow, cultivator, post hole auger, sub soiler, back blade, home modded 2 row corn planter, brush hog and finish mower). The payments on the same PTO HP diesel would run more than the gas I'm going through, with the finish mower the 4+ acres I mow takes about 2 gallons. I can plow for about 5 hours on 6-7 gallons. Besides my wife is comfortable on the N and can use it where anything with modern controls is way too much for her. So when I get to the point that I can get a nice CUT I'll have to keep the N for her or get rid of her first.......HMMMMM.....that has possibilities! (JK)!

I'm a retired disabled Vet with back, neck problems and worn out knees that VA refuses to replace until I'm 62. I can't kneel on the one and only on the other for short times only. Points on the M are no big deal as I can stand there and replace them but on the front mount 8N?????? If the N was side mount I'd just leave it with points. Know anyone who wants to donate a side mount block?????....LOL. Heck I got the hole auger and a TBL so that I can do things that my body will not do the old way. My son helps when I'm cleaning up the barn yard. I run the loader and he spreads so I don't have to climb on and off tractors all day.

Again I said you never used the word dumb and said I'm sorry for how I stated that...... but I maintain that the way you phrase things when anyone ask about converting to IE makes it sound like you think they are stupid.


Rick