ethanol fuel alternatives

I just bought a gravely zero turn mower and the book and the store manager says it likes non ethanol fuel. The nearest place to get it is 60 miles away.

Are there any additives, etc that can be added to the ethanol crap to make it useable in a non-ethanol engine ??? I"ve seen the add-ins that help with water absorption... but to they counteract the bad effects of ethanol in small engines ???

tia
John
 
The add-ins that aid in water absorption ARE ethanol.I'm sorry you live so far away from a non-ethanol outlet. I can get-in Iowa, no less- Non ethnol about two miles away, and I fill a couple five gallon cans with fuel specifically for the Mowers, Chain saw and weed whackers. I'v had no trouble so far with any of my equipment, so if Gravely says don't use, might need to take a 'road trip' and several cans to fill. I DO know that the straight gas can be kept over the winter without losing its volatility, while ethanol will separate, ethanol being a tad heavier than gasoline, even more so after absorbing moisture. I have a flex fuel taurus that can run on 85% ethanol that came from the factory with a block heater; 85% won't start an engine when the temp is under 15 degrees.
 
(quoted from post at 06:55:42 01/10/12) I just bought a gravely zero turn mower and the book and the store manager says it likes non ethanol fuel. The nearest place to get it is 60 miles away.

Are there any additives, etc that can be added to the ethanol crap to make it useable in a non-ethanol engine ??? I"ve seen the add-ins that help with water absorption... but to they counteract the bad effects of ethanol in small engines ???

tia
John

What is it with these lawn mower and small engine manufacturers that makes them think they CAN'T build an engine that IS compatible with ethanol fuel? The automotive industry has been doing it for about 30 years now.

If I was looking at a new lawn mower, etc., and was told it wouldn't run on ethanol, I would just turn around and walk away.
 
I'm kinda thinking that if you bought it, you must have had some idea where you would get fuel for it. Caveat emptor.
 
I know of no small enginie manufacturers that have said that the "CAN'T" build an ethanol compatible engine. Rather they choose not to do so because ethanol compatibility increases manufacturing costs.

The automobile manufacturers manufacture ethanol compatible products because the federales force them to do so.

Not to worry, these same federales will, no doubt, soon force the small engine manufacturers to do so as well.

Dean
 
(quoted from post at 11:14:36 01/10/12) Check your owners manual, that is the gospel.
heck for the good old gas at boat ramps around your lakes and at airports. Neither like corn gas.
 
I think it is funny. That the Gov tells us how great the stuff is. But it is not allowed in aircraft or marine use.Because it may cause the engine to shut down.
 
Is there any Stock Car tracks in your area? Most have racing fuel/gas with NO ethanol. The track I hang around sells 110 octane race gas, kind of pricy @ $6.00 a gallon, but its all gas no ethanol.
 
(quoted from post at 12:39:04 01/10/12) Is there any Stock Car tracks in your area? Most have racing fuel/gas with NO ethanol. The track I hang around sells 110 octane race gas, kind of pricy @ $6.00 a gallon, but its all gas no ethanol.
ust NOT a NASCAR track---------15%E
 
(quoted from post at 07:55:42 01/10/12) I just bought a gravely zero turn mower and the book and the store manager says it likes non ethanol fuel. The nearest place to get it is 60 miles away.

Are there any additives, etc that can be added to the ethanol crap to make it useable in a non-ethanol engine ??? I"ve seen the add-ins that help with water absorption... but to they counteract the bad effects of ethanol in small engines ???

tia
John

I add a bit of Shaeffer's [i:b2e8271e45]NUETRA[/i:b2e8271e45] to the 10% stuff they call gas around here; seems to keep better when it sits for a long period of time.
 
University study on ethanol effects on aircraft engines in link below. "Fuel lab tests done on some gas samples have shown that there are low levels of acetone, methanol, and MEK that can be legally added to your gas. This is besides the additives added as injector cleaners. Acetone and Mek are destructive to duel tank sealants." Taken from an article about ethanol use in aircraft. Test was done at Jabiru USA facility after a J230-SP aircraft using E-10 came in for damaged fuel tanks.
FAA supervised study
 
(quoted from post at 10:36:55 01/10/12) Check for the good old gas at boat ramps around your lakes and at airports. Neither like corn gas.

JMOR is correct.
Around here the marina's and airport's are the last hold-outs on finding non-ethenol gas.

Unfortunately, I recently heard that the nearest refinery where most of the local fuel comes from (Shreveport), will soon quit providing non-ethenol fuel.
 
John,

I might be committing slow murder on all of my equipment, but I use ethanol in everything - old tractor, old and new lawn mowers, chain saws, string trimmers, portable generators, etc.

I've had a couple of fuel lines in my chain saws that have gone bad, but they were about 10 years old anyway.

There's non-ethanol gas all around me in Middle Tennessee, but I've never bothered to acquire it.

YMMV.

Tom in TN
 
Small Engines built capable of burning ethanol mix? The engines exist already, check out Honda small engines Brazil speced- Bring some extra $$$. EPA rules on clean burn also a factor- a couple ethanol burning models don"t meet the latest EPA in California market- but California wasn"t a large user of ethanol mixs until the MBTE additive that was the California standard was found to cause cancer -early/mid 2000? Rotax makes a couple models- the Bombadier plant in Canada has a couple available for snowmobile and powerhead general use, a E85 model was advertised about 25hp and twice the price of a Kohler plain gas model about same hp- advertised in Minnesota market. Another alternative is the small diesels as made in Europe and Asiia for past few-more than few- years. Haatz out of Milwuakee adverises 4hp to 10 hp, Yanmar has been around in JDs for years at 20-30hp, BCS tillers adverised for many years with a 8/10hp diesel- Landini? and JLO singles have been made since 1980s at least. Problem has been how do you make a Ethanol or diesel 3 to 6hp lawnmower engine at $99.00 retail for WalMart customers to meet competition price of old design, tooling paid for, gasoline warning sidevalve 3hp or latest ohv 5hp $129.95. RN
 
(quoted from post at 12:58:15 01/10/12) Ethanol won't hurt your Mower..
uch a broad blanket statement never holds water, but ethanol sure does. Let it sit exposed to air & it sucks up water, the water/ethanol separates from the gasoline & you have a mess. Not to mention that old mower engines carbs/lines/etc. can be attacked by the alcohol. Older is key, here.
When NASCAR went to 15% they had to change fuel cans, tank connections, and stop using on site storage and use the stuff fresh straight off the tank trucks! Air exposure & resulting moisture! Read that as water in the tank.
 
It is not gospel but it is a good place to start. Just remember it is not "policed" by any body other than the viewers. I have had good luck with it. You can also test the alchol content by using Mercury Marine Part Number 91-879172T28. Under $10.
Untitled URL Link
 
E85 won"t start a car engine under 15 degrees? Thanks for the morning laugh! Our "03 sits in an unheated garage, never plugged in....don"t think it even has a heater.......always starts fine. BTW, eth is a de-icer...I don"t buy that stuff anymore either. Where do you anti-eth people get these jokes?
 
I have heard that E-85 is not nearly 85% in the winter, so vehicles will start. Also you might be surprised how warm an unheated (insulated) garage stays in the winter, if you keep the door shut! My first garage was not insulated and I don't think it ever got below 0, and that was at I Falls!
 
(quoted from post at 10:27:30 01/10/12) John,

I might be committing slow murder on all of my equipment, but I use ethanol in everything - old tractor, old and new lawn mowers, chain saws, string trimmers, portable generators, etc.

I've had a couple of fuel lines in my chain saws that have gone bad, but they were about 10 years old anyway.

There's non-ethanol gas all around me in Middle Tennessee, but I've never bothered to acquire it.

YMMV.

Tom in TN

I also have been using the E10 in everything that has an engine, and I've been using it for at least 30 years now. Not a single lawn mower, chainsaw, motor-cycle, pick-up truck, car, or tractor has ever given trouble because of the E10. No rubber fuel line failures, no carburetor problems, no fouled spark plugs, no hard starting issues in cold weather, or hot weather, or damp weather, and for what it's worth, my 1940 H, 1940 M, and 2001 Chevy truck all run just fine on E85, and have been since April of last year, and the truck is not even a flex-fuel vehicle.
 
I picked up an 1864 Cub Cadet last year. Its year model is between 1995 and 1998. It has a 18 hp Kohler engine, horizontal shaft.
It's been sitting up for some time.
Finally got it running, but it seemed to be running rich. I did several internet searches including inquires on this site. The carburetor has a fixed main jet with an electric fuel shut off solenoid valve. I finally drilled and tapped the back side of the solenoid housing to screw in a 6/32 screw to serve as a back stop and lean out the mixture. It works great now.
Still don't know why I had to do it, or if the ethanol gas has anything to do with it.
 
(quoted from post at 21:40:59 01/10/12) I picked up an 1864 Cub Cadet last year. Its year model is between 1995 and 1998. It has a 18 hp Kohler engine, horizontal shaft.
It's been sitting up for some time.
Finally got it running, but it seemed to be running rich. I did several internet searches including inquires on this site. The carburetor has a fixed main jet with an electric fuel shut off solenoid valve. I finally drilled and tapped the back side of the solenoid housing to screw in a 6/32 screw to serve as a back stop and lean out the mixture. It works great now.
Still don't know why I had to do it, or if the ethanol gas has anything to do with it.
ah, probably not, as "rustyfarmall from the corn state" would have all believe that you can just stuff the corn (cob/shuck & all) straight into your tank & it will run better than on straight gasoline! :twisted:
 
I would return the mower and demand a refund. If Gravly is using engines that are 30 years out of date, why would you want one ?

There are plenty of other brand mowers / engines that will run with no problem on E10 for their 20-30 year lifetime.
Why would you want to partonize a company that makes you drive 60 miles to get their special fuel ?
30 years ago, it took the auto industry only 2 years to get their stuff together so everything they build could burn 10% Ethanol. Any small engine builder that still refuses to make their stuff compatable with E10 deserves a swift kick in the bottom line.
 
I know the temp in the unheated garage- car shows it..........car sat outside all day at my wife"s school for many years......always started. 15 deg is nothing but BS.
 
Most serious racers mix their own fuel with various favorite additives anyway.

When I was racing, our rules stated "pump gasoline only", yet when you walked past a car in the pits with the engine idling, (ours included), the fumes would make your eyes water.
 
The cleanest and longest lasting gasoline that is the least metal,plastic and rubber aggressive. 100LL from your local airport.
Our airport is self service for 100LL and JetA-1 / kerosene. Just put your card in the pump and squeeze the nozzle trigger.
 
Lucas makes a ethanol fuel conditioner with stabilizers that contains effective additives to prevent rust and corrosion associated with the use of ethanol fuels ( E-10, E-15 and E-85 ).
 
I have a 252Z with over 1,200 Hrs on it and has had ethenol in it since new not a problem. What model did you buy. They are great mowers.
 
Those that like ethanol should buy ethanol, those that don't like ethanol should not be forced to buy it by because it makes some group money. Yes, I farm, raise corn and soybeans. Its called freedom of choice. Joe
 
I bought a new chainsaw this year, pro grade saw, the salesman told me that I need to be running an ethanol treatment. I did tell him it was pretty pathetic that they couldn't sell a saw that was made for it. Not a big deal for me as I run startron in all my small engines anyways.
 
Irrelevent.

How can you possibly "know" that ethanol will not hurt another person's engine qbout which you know nothing?

Dean
 
****I just bought a gravely zero turn mower and the book and the store manager says it likes non ethanol fuel. The nearest place to get it is 60 miles away.

Are there any additives, etc that can be added to the ethanol crap to make it useable in a non-ethanol engine ?****


Here's a link to Gravely's engine page on their website. Neither the Kohler nor the Kawasaki are described as "non-ethanol" engines:

http://www.gravely.com/zero-turn-mowers/Pages/Engines.aspx

You'll hear more inaccurate opinions on this topic than just about anything else engine-related. If the store manager or the owners manual say ethanol blends up to "X" percent are fine, that isn't the same as saying it's a "non-ethanol" engine.

FWIW, ethanol blends aren't "better" than non-ethanol blends, but they don't deserve the bad rap they get either. They're blamed for FAR more issues than they actually cause.

Use any blend percentage the manufacturer says is okay. Do NOT let the fuel sit for longer than the engine manufacturer recommends, and follow the engine manufacturer's recommended storage procedures.

Either that, or fall prey to the marketers of the plethora of additives or products marketed towards individuals that buy into the notion that "dosing" the fuel is necessary.

You don't need additives. You don't need to drive an hour away. You don't need AV-gas. If you needed any of those things, the owners manual will say so.

:wink:
 
A lot of hysteria and misinformation here.

Did you read the engine manual that came with your mower? That's the gold source for what fuel is acceptable. And I'll bet it says the minimum acceptable fuel is 87 octane (pump number) unleaded gas with up to ten percent ethanol. Who in their right mind would buy a piece of equipment for which fuel is nearly unobtainable?

Just because the station 60 miles away SAYS they have ethanol-free gasoline, that means nothing. After all, they get their fuel from the same refinery as everybody else. Do you think the refinery cooks up a special batch every time they call for more gas? The only way to be certain the gas is ethanol-free is to TEST it, and you have to test every time you buy gas. Life is too short for that nonsense.

The idea that you can add something to fuel to neutralize the ethanol is absurd. At best, you'll aggravate the situation by adding even more solvents to the mix to eat up fuel system components. You'll probably lower the octane of the fuel if you add enough junk. They will do nothing about water in the fuel, since the ethanol will have already absorbed it; worst case is they'll cause the water/ethanol solution to separate from the fuel, not what you want.

If you're really set on ethanol-free gas, 100LL avgas is the answer. It is of course much more expensive than mogas. It is leaded, which means your plugs will foul out faster. On the other hand, it has a very low vapor pressure which gives it a long shelf life and resistance to vapor locking.

Best thing to do is don't worry about it. Buy your fuel from a reputable source that's convenient for you. Run the carb out of fuel if the mower will be sitting for a few months. Don't worry, be happy.
 
The fact is that ethanol is crap, but for the greenie city boys, it is fine, but if you are a farmer with engines that are only fired up in the season in which they are needed, it is crap, it is a problem, it is a costly headache! The $h!t goes bad over time! Now let it soak in & stop beating your dead ethanol horse!


















1
 
Why the attitude? Someone asked a question, and people responded. Here's my problem with ethanol use myths: There are PLENTY of individuals and companies that are more than happy to separate consumers from the dollars in their wallets by marketing products that allegedly "cure" the ills of ethanol use. Watch this video, and see how many falsehoods, misconceptions, and outright utter nonsense are spewed forth by "Joe Honest"....the friendly neighborhood marine mechanic. Of course the clip says this guy's testimonial is uncompensated, but check out the name of the person that posted it....it ain't Honest Boat Mechanic himself. My teenage daughter with no mechanical background watched this "unsolicited testimonial", and she picked out several things that are just wrong. Then again, she earned a passing grade in middle school Science class....something Mr. Boat Mechanic obviously cannot say.

Enjoy this clip and then do some wandering around to see how many MORE like this there are. This one alone has 20,000+ views. How many folks that aren't capable of critical thinking do you suppose have been convinced by this? How many of those convinced individuals have passed along what they've "learned" to others?

http://youtu.be/YeCyFxoWPpo



:wink:
 
Don't you know that "critical thinking" is a dirty word here?

My favorite line was when he explained that water was condensing on the outside of the jar because the fuel had ethanol in it. Oh boy...
 
typical sales talk. that unit has which motor kohler, kawasaki, briggs. READ YOUR MANUAL they can all use same fuel,ethanol included. put gas in it and go. Here what works in my repair shop KEEP GAS CLEAN AND FRESH. UNleaded or gasahol just does not have the storage life it used too. As far as additive thing thats a whole nother marketing scene,most of the additive actuaall ymakes things worse instead off better because IT ALSO CONTAINS ALCOHOL. Now you just raise any gas higher in alcohol. i do not push any of it,a little auto tranny mixed with gas will do the same thing from the old timers. this is just my thoughts okay. But read your ENGINE MANUAL!!!
 
(quoted from post at 10:00:28 01/10/12) University study on ethanol effects on aircraft engines in link below. "Fuel lab tests done on some gas samples have shown that there are low levels of acetone, methanol, and MEK that can be legally added to your gas. This is besides the additives added as injector cleaners. Acetone and Mek are destructive to duel tank sealants." Taken from an article about ethanol use in aircraft. Test was done at Jabiru USA facility after a J230-SP aircraft using E-10 came in for damaged fuel tanks.
FAA supervised study

Am I missing something here: The link you posted takes me to a report outining the Type Certification Testing for the Avco Lycoming AEIO-540 engine series for use with Ethanol fuel. In this case the fuel was denatured ethanol, commonly called E95. The report outlines the standard 150 hour endurance test with pre and post engine disassembly inspections. The results of this testing was very favable and no problems were noted. In fact the engine ran cooler, made more power, experienced less wear than typical of avgas. Post endurance testing failed to induce pre-ignition or detonation at any test condition. The Type Certificate was granted in March of 1990.
 
Not going to get into the ethanol good or bad fight. All I know is that ethanol and bio gas plants are going bust. All over the country.

We have the Mustang Creek Bio Gas plant down here. They had a big party for it down here. Lots of big wigs running around telling us how great the thing was going to be. Gonna be jobs in this county. Well one week after the big party it was shut down. From what I was told by the men that were working there. EPA regulations shut it down. Heard the same thing from the man that got it all started.
 
Absolutely 100% correct man.I have been a small
engine mechanic for quite sometime.I have seen
first hand the effects of ethanol on small
engines.I will actually shrink Tygon fuel hose.It
started with the type of string trimmer where the
fuel hose actually seals against the tank.I
replaced a hose one particular day filled the tank
with at the time was regular 87 octane 10% ethanol
fuel.The next morning the gas was gone because the
hose had shrunk.That is when i started using
nothing but 93 octane.I haven't had this
particular problem since.It is my understanding
that 93 has little or no ethanol.It is obviously
true.Another issue is customers who let their
equipment set over the winter with that nasty
ethanol fuel left in it.Don't get me wrong i love
having the business,but it sure has become a
problem.JT from NC
 
If the aircraft is used for any commercial activity, including aero-photography..... only av-gas is allowed. 100 or 80 oct. LL.

Bottom line.....had the same problems years ago with AVCO Lycoming....when car gas got its approval thru EAA and FAA. Careful.

John,PA FAA Safety OPNS. Counselor
 
My favorite line was when he explained that water was condensing on the outside of the jar because the fuel had ethanol in it. Oh boy...

That is funny. It's equally hilarious that he started out his demonstration by saying the fuel sample he had was taken from a boat. He went on to mention that boat tanks are vented to atmosphere, and since they are....they're especially susceptible to having ethanol blended fuel "suck" moisture out of the air. The kicker is....at the beginning of his demo he shows how the fuel sample HAS NO MOISTURE!

But it CAME from a vented boat tank! And it was ethanol-blended fuel!

Why-oh-why wasn't his blended fuel sample moisture-laden when it came from the tank? Does ethanol not suck moisture out of the air until someone turns a fan on? Why-oh-why did he NOT do a side-by-side comparison of blended versus non-blended fuels after first eliminating all of the other variables....like making sure the liquids were at identical temperatures and exposed to identical environments?

Why is there condensate on the outside of my cold Coca-Cola when my beverage contains no ethanol to "suck" the moisture out of the air? To take it a step further, if I allow the cola to sit until it reaches room temperature, (and the condensation on the can has long since disappeared), can I make the condensation magically reappear...if I add a splash of ethanol?

And yet....hundreds, (a conservative estimate), will flock to the parts store or the company's website and happily hand over their money for a bottle of "the cure".

Thank you, Mr. Uncompensated Boat Mechanic. Thank you.

8)
 
Just a heads-up here folks, I responded to the video on YouTube in the comments section. I explained in detail how their clip is misleading at best.

A rep from Starbrite responded with more nonsense, which I then refuted as well.

Guess what? The "owner" of the clip, (Starbrite Corp.), blocked me from commenting any further....AND....removed what I'd already posted. I used no profanity, did no name-calling....nothing. I merely pointed out the inaccuracies and exaggerations. Then I challenged them to do an actual side-by-side test.

Comments removed. Commenter blocked.

That's how they operate.



:wink:
 
(quoted from post at 05:35:41 01/14/12) Just a heads-up here folks, I responded to the video on YouTube in the comments section. I explained in detail how their clip is misleading at best.

A rep from Starbrite responded with more nonsense, which I then refuted as well.

Guess what? The "owner" of the clip, (Starbrite Corp.), blocked me from commenting any further....AND....removed what I'd already posted. I used no profanity, did no name-calling....nothing. I merely pointed out the inaccuracies and exaggerations. Then I challenged them to do an actual side-by-side test.

Comments removed. Commenter blocked.

That's how they operate.

Brokenot - I seen your comments there earlier in the week, I noticed they were not there this morning when I reviewed the video. I reviewed the video because I wanted to duplicate the test using two samples, one of E-10 and the other of straight gasoline. It is winter in Indiana so I don't have enough humidity in my shop to actually condense water on the sides of the jars. However, my objective was to compare the evaporative cooling of gasoline with and without ethanol. As gasoline or ethanol evaporates the Latent Heat of Vaporization cools the remaining liquid. The latent heat of gasoline is 150 btu/lb and ethanal is significantly greater at 396 btu/lb, however the latent heat of E-10 should be 175 or not that much different than gasoline.

For the test I poured fresh E10 (purchased last week) from a sealed container into two beakers, 500 ml into each. To obtain straight gasoline I added 50 ml of water to one breaker, this was to separate out the ethanol. A 500 ml sample of E-10 should contain 50 ml of ethanol, indeed 100 ml of ethanol/water mixture settled at the bottom verifying 1) it was E-10 and 2) the gasoline floating above the mixture is now free of ethanol.

The test containers were two dishes (3.5" dia x 1.5" deep) with a thermocouple to read the liquid temperature of each sample and a small fan positioned to blow across them. Into one dish I poured 100 ml of E-10 and labeled the dish as E-10. Into the other dish I poured 100 ml of the gasoline floating on top of the ethanol/water mixture and labeled this dish as gasoline. The gasoline sample started out at 63.4 degrees and the E-10 sample started at 62.6 degrees. Once the fan was turned on the liquid temperature began dropping. After 8 minutes the gasoline reached a low of 33.6 and the E-10 reached a low of 34.4 degrees. After 12 minutes the liquid temperatures were 34.8 for the gasoline and 35.2 for the E-10. At this point the test was stopped as the fumes were beginning to build up in the shop. The ambient air temperature inside the shop was 68 F and the humidity was 18 %, therefore no significant water condensation was noted. For water to condense on the sides of the test containers the liquid temperature would have needed to be below 23 F. At a shop humidity of approximately 30 %, water would have started to condense as it did in the video.

In conclusion, the evaporative cooling effect is similar for gasoline and E-10. This cooling effect is why the jar remained cool enough to continue to condense water as shown in Jeff's video after a hour of the fan blowing warm humid air across it.

Comments on the video:

1) Some may argue ethanol pulls water from the air, that may be - I don't know, however, in the video condensation forming on the sides of the container is proposed as the dominant mode of water formation. Had Jeff used two samples in his demostration I believe he would have observed similar amounts of water in the bottom of each jar.

2) Fuel tanks need to be vented to allow the fuel to drain out. The vent is typically a small hole which prevents free/active air exhange within the tank. There are no fuel tanks constructed with straight sides and an open top. This would allow for an explosive mixture to form as the air mixed freely with the fuel vapors. In addition rapid evaporation of the light ends in the fuel would result in hard starting and poor throttle response. Therefore, the video demonstrated a condition which does not exist.

3) The test is easy to run and I plan to repeat it this summer when we have some humidity to verify the amounts of condensate. This time outside - I still have a headache from the fumes.

Sorry - for the long post hope, someone finds it informative.
 
Yesterday's Tractor Forums

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top