ethanol/non-ethanol

[ArnieinChesterfieldVa]

I have found a gas station that sells the old-style regular gas for $3.59 a gallon....not bad considering the average station in the central Va. area is about $3.25. I'm planning on filling a 5 gal. can with non-ethanol so I can use that in my small engines like weedeater, chainsaw, generator,etc.

I wonder if now that I can get the ethanol-free gas locally if I should consider using it in my 60 also. I only go through about 8 gallons a year.

 

[gunther9]

I would definitely use non-ethanol in your 60 or any other older carburetor. The cast iron carburetors rust easily and the moisture developed with the alcohol in the ethanol spells rust blockage of small passages. In MO where I live the only way to be assured of non-ethanol fuel is to buy 91 octane. That's the only thing I ever put into a gas can or my 60 tractor.

 

[Mike Aylward]

Here we go again. I've used ethanol fuel in all my gas powered tractors since the 1970's. Once the gunk in the tank and carburetor is cleaned (residue from OLD, REGULAR gasoline) the fuel system is kept clean. The premise here (and it's a faulty one) is that regular gas NEVER gets moisture in it which who have messed with tractors at all know better. Ethanol actually lets the moisture mix with it and get out of the system. Regular gas lets the moisture congregate and settle out which causes MUCH more rust (and freezing this time of year). Ethanol in an old tractor works just fine. If it didn't I would be using something else. And my tractors aren't just for fun. They get used. Mike

 

[MNJDG]

Couldn't have said it better. Used e85 in pulling tractor for two years now and only problem with it is finding room for trophies.

 

[bill mart]

for the small amount of fuel you use the extra cost of non ethanol is worth the peace of mind you will get. I say go for it. Bill

 

[McBride]

If it"s on the internet it just has to be true.

 

[Bob in Oakboro]

You can find stations that sell non-ethanol gas at the web site pure-gas.com

 

[MisterT]

(quoted from post at 16:18:10 01/12/13) Here we go again. I've used ethanol fuel in all my gas powered tractors since the 1970's. Once the gunk in the tank and carburetor is cleaned (residue from OLD, REGULAR gasoline) the fuel system is kept clean. The premise here (and it's a faulty one) is that regular gas NEVER gets moisture in it which who have messed with tractors at all know better. Ethanol actually lets the moisture mix with it and get out of the system. Regular gas lets the moisture congregate and settle out which causes MUCH more rust (and freezing this time of year). Ethanol in an old tractor works just fine. If it didn't I would be using something else. And my tractors aren't just for fun. They get used. Mike

DITTO!! I also use it in lawnmowers, chainsaws, weedeaters, etc. My son and I even used E10 in our 2 stroke dirt bikes. NEVER had a problem.

 

[gunther9]

I'll bet you the next thing all you ethanol brainiacs are going to say is that you get the same or better fuel efficiency with ethanol. I have a 72 Ford 2 ton flat bed that caught on fire due to ethanol eating away the gas line, chunk of rubber lodged in the needle valve, carburetor flooded big fire. Fortunately I had a fire extinguisher. Gamble if you must but I'll pay the premium for non-ethanol in older vehicles gladly. There are a lot of small gas engines being ruined by ethanol eating up seals, O-rings and gaskets. We should eliminate the ethanol subsidies and let the market dictate what gets produced. If ethanol moisture accumulation isn't a problem, then somebody explain to me why marine filling stations are exempt from ethanol mandates. I know several boat owners that are ready to string up state legislators that have passed ethanol mandates.

 

[Dave H]

Mike I cannot believe you posted that. You are gonna turn into a pillar of salt or something lol.

Yep i listen to the tales of woe about the E10. What a bunch of urban legend.

Also one thing to keep in mind with that "good" gas is to have a case of Heet setting around and add one bottle to each tank full. I gotta go before I roll out of my chair.

 

[MisterT]

(quoted from post at 21:58:46 01/12/13) I'll bet you the next thing all you ethanol brainiacs are going to say is that you get the same or better fuel efficiency with ethanol. I have a 72 Ford 2 ton flat bed that caught on fire due to ethanol eating away the gas line, chunk of rubber lodged in the needle valve, carburetor flooded big fire. Fortunately I had a fire extinguisher. Gamble if you must but I'll pay the premium for non-ethanol in older vehicles gladly. There are a lot of small gas engines being ruined by ethanol eating up seals, O-rings and gaskets. We should eliminate the ethanol subsidies and let the market dictate what gets produced. If ethanol moisture accumulation isn't a problem, then somebody explain to me why marine filling stations are exempt from ethanol mandates. I know several boat owners that are ready to string up state legislators that have passed ethanol mandates.

By 1972, all fuel components were already being made of material that was impervious to ethanol. Your fuel line disintegrated due to old age. Nothing else.

 

[mattwillson]

I'd like to know, if it's such good stuff why does it go stale so fast?

 

[gunther9]

You might be right but when I researched it I couldn"t find a definitive date. Everything I read said it was a phased in changeover but generally mid-80"s would be safe. I looked through the Ford truck owners manual I have and it said nothing about ethanol one way or the other.

 

[Mike Aylward]

It goes stale because the 90% gasoline it's mixed with is crap. But so is the 100% gasoline in the pump next to it. No fault of the ethanol. Mike

 

[ArnieinChesterfieldVa]

Those that have had no trouble with the ethanol gas must be doing one of two things. You're either running the units you're putting it into on a regular basis......or you're using Startron stabilizer from Tractor Supply or Northern Hydraulics. Let a vehicle or small engine sit for a long time with ethanol gas in it & see what happens. I've witnessed its problems over & over....some with my own stuff before I smartened up to it, some with other folks. It loves to eat up carburators & fuel pumps especially.

A family member in upstate N.Y. is the one that put me onto the Star-tron (not Stabil) stabilizer. The snowmobilers & bikers up his way who have to leave their machines sitting for months on end swear by it once the word got around compared to Stabil.

I have heard before, like one of y'all mentioned, that buying high test at gas stations gives you ethanol-free gas...but every time I try to find it labeled that way on the pump, it does not signify the difference between the regular & high test.

Thanks for the help, y'all. My decision is the 60 is going to get non-ethanol also for the few hours I put on it in a year bushhogging & small chores, etc.

Arnie

 

[Machinery-Man]

Personally we are so removed from the old tractor days that most folks don't realize how they worked. We had a 44 B and we were constantly fouling plugs, used distillate in in when it got 180 degrees and then would switch back to gas on lighter loads. The fuel issue was a lot to manage in the old stuff. Any modern fuel is many times ahead of that era. that old fuel would also go dead and stop up carburators and whatever. I would recommend good hot thermostats and electronic ignition and you shouldn't have any problems.

 

[Anonymous-0]

if E-10 is so bad why did oldtimers pour 2 or 3 cans of heet in there gas tanks several times when filling up n the winter? (displace water maybe? prevent gas line freeze?) just saying--kj

 

[Indiana Ken]

(quoted from post at 07:11:30 01/12/13) I would definitely use non-ethanol in your 60 or any other older carburetor. The cast iron carburetors rust easily and the moisture developed with the alcohol in the ethanol spells rust blockage of small passages. In MO where I live the only way to be assured of non-ethanol fuel is to buy 91 octane. That's the only thing I ever put into a gas can or my 60 tractor.

Buying 91 octane fuel is not a guarantee of ethanol free fuel. Typically ethanol is blended in all fuel grades across the US. Very likley you have been using E-10 fuel and not having problems with it.

To be sure you have ethanol free fuel you will need to test it! To test; take a tall glass and mark it (sharpie marker) every one half inch to five inches. Add water to the first mark at one half inch. Now add the gasoline you wish to test to the five inch mark. You should be able the see the water phase at the bottom and the gasoline phase above. Now stir up the sample and allow to settle a minute or two.

If the gasoline is free of ethanol the water phase will remain unchanged at the one half inch mark. If the gasoline contains ethanol the water will pull the ethanol into the water phase and you will have a water ethanol phase. For E-10 this water ethanol phase will be very close to the one inch mark.

In the case you have E-10 and desire straight gasoline simply pour the gasoline phase off and discard the water ethanol phase. And just in case you get to thinking....No it is not possible to distill the gasoline denaturate out of the water ethanol phase for drinking.

 

[Ken11487]

Around here, Ontario, all the gas is E10. The reg would foul plugs but the premium will run clean year after year. Just better gasoline base in the premium. Don't need the octane, need the cleaner base .
I think some areas or brands just use poorer gas in their reg blend.
There are no laws for what must be in gasoline just that it will measure the octane listed on the pump!

 

[MSD]

Time to post it again. Read the whole article and see what the experts found.
Mercury Marin ethanol tests

 

[bill mart]

the station I get my ethanol free fuel from states on the pump it is ethanol free (it does happen to be 91 octane) Bill

 

[MSD]

SD allows 83 octane to be brought into the western part of the state and be blended with ethanol to make 85 octane. It has something to do with altitudes and octane needed. An 85 octane blend is legal in the western part but not in the eastern part. Some stations in the eastern part got caught selling it as 87 when in fact it was only 85. Most car manufacturers don't want it run in their newer engines. And then we wonder why our mileage may vary. Most of the E10 around here is 87 or 89 octane. The distributor out of Wyoming that was pushing the 83 threatened to cut off the supply to the western part if the state didn't allow it to come in. Governor caved and let them get by with it even though state law says they can't.

 

[jd b puller]

You running E-85 in the B and the G or just the B?

 

[jd b puller]

Arnie, keep in mind some of the newer two-stroke stuff actually recommends 91 Octane.

Check your manual to be sure.

 

[bill mart]

Dont know if it makes a difference but Heet and Isoheet contain either methanol or isopropanol not ethanol. Bill

 

[MisterT]

(quoted from post at 00:36:21 01/13/13) Those that have had no trouble with the ethanol gas must be doing one of two things. You're either running the units you're putting it into on a regular basis......or you're using Startron stabilizer from Tractor Supply or Northern Hydraulics. Let a vehicle or small engine sit for a long time with ethanol gas in it & see what happens. I've witnessed its problems over & over....some with my own stuff before I smartened up to it, some with other folks. It loves to eat up carburators & fuel pumps especially.

A family member in upstate N.Y. is the one that put me onto the Star-tron (not Stabil) stabilizer. The snowmobilers & bikers up his way who have to leave their machines sitting for months on end swear by it once the word got around compared to Stabil.

I have heard before, like one of y'all mentioned, that buying high test at gas stations gives you ethanol-free gas...but every time I try to find it labeled that way on the pump, it does not signify the difference between the regular & high test.

Thanks for the help, y'all. My decision is the 60 is going to get non-ethanol also for the few hours I put on it in a year bushhogging & small chores, etc.

Arnie

I am NOT using Star-tron or any other brand of stabilizer. I have NEVER even used Sta-Bil. My tractors may set for 3 to 4 months without being started. When I'm ready to use them again, I just start them up and go.

 

[Indiana Ken]

Yes, most likely ethanol free gasoline will be 91 octane. Refining gasoline to higher octane costs money and simply blending 10% ethanol adds aproximately 2 octane numbers. Therefore 91 octane becomes 93 octane when blended, the refiner saves two ways; 1) less cost to refine 2) ethanol costs less than gasoline. This is also (in part) why you pay more for ethanol free gasoline. I have purchased ethanol free fuel twice and tested each time - to my amazement it was indeed ethanol free.

If your intent is to use ethanol free fuel adding Heet defeats the purpose. You are simply paying twice; once to remove the ethanol and again to add back alcohol contained in the Heet product. The yellow bottle of Heet contains Methyl alcohol which is much more corrosive than ethanol.

Conversely if you are using a E10 blend any free water collected in the fuel line will not freeze and you do not need Heet. Any free water collected in the fuel line using straight gasoline will freeze and can stop flow to the engine.

 

[Anonymous-0]

I think this is probably the second, perhaps third discussion on ethanol blended fuel versus non-ethanol blended fuel. We have been running the ethanol blended fuel on the farm since the 1980's. The gas powered tractors include H Farmall and a 3020 John Deere stemming back from then. Since, there has been an A and 60 John Deere, as well as a 656 Farmall. There have been no issues with any of these, but if anything is not going to be run for a few months, particularly the winter months, then a stablizer is added. As far as small engines, the ethanol blended fuel has been used in Tecumseh, Briggs, Onan, and Kawasaki engines with no issues, but these are all four cycle engines. Having had scored cylinders in air cooled two cycle engines, and the dealership where we bought these from urging us to refrain from using the ethanol blended fuel, we have done so, and have not had problems with these engines. Having to separately buy 10 or 15 gallons of 91 octane premium gas without ethanol is not much of an inconvenience, as we have a can of fuel with the two cycle oil sitting around for use anyway. There was one more item brought up that I would like to chime in on. We had two Ford products (1986 car and 1990 light truck) with 302 cubic inch fuel injected V-8's and as far as my experience, I have never been around an engine that was as touchy or moody, with respect to gasoline, than that engine was. I don't know what to say other than we had one fueling station in the area that offered a 91 octane non-ethanol blended fuel where these two vehicles would consistently achieve a 15 to 20 percent increase in mpg, compared to any other fuel available, especially as compared to E-10 for an increased cost in the fuel of 10 percent. Any other fuel, including most other premium fuels, would deliver the same performance as E-10, accompanied by the pinging in the engine. That one fueling station had something different with its fuel that it would consistently deliver better mileage and no pinging. Yeah, I know the story. It all comes out of the same pipeline into the same fuel terminal, but I know what I personally experienced. Since those 302's are both gone, and have been replaced with newer engines, I have never seen that issue since. I would venture a guess these newer engines are better designed to more effectively and efficiently burn a wider array of fuel. I do believe and recognize there is a difference in fuels and I completely accept and realize the slightly lower btu on E-10 as compared to 100 percent gasoline. I will continue to use E-10 in all of my four cycle engines, but not in my two cycles. I also respect the opinions of others, too, and know that we all are inclined to do whatever seems to work the best for each of us.

 

[M-MAN]

I would use the regular gas, but that's just me & I don't have any luck with the ethanol blends.

The ethanol debate will never end just like oil brands, 6v vs 12v, spark plug brand's, etc. Doesn't really matter what someone else likes or don't like, it's what works for you that matter's.

If there was a perfect E-85 like some suggest there woulden't be any other brand or type. We would all still be running 6v system's since they have worked flawlessly for a hundred years. There would only be one brand of oil or spark plug cause any others would be unnecessary. Sure---

 

[ET]

Back when they took lead out of gas in the 80's and went fron 89 octain regular to 87 octain regular all the complaints were the same. Destroys all plastic and rubber parts, goes stale in a couple weeks, starts hard, and every engine failure was caused by that junk unleaded fuel.