Filter First message Installed

[cpratt]

The question was "Why rant unless the change causes yourself (or others) to be negatively impacted?"
It was not intended to be mean, just curious if you were negatively impacted by the change.

If you wish not to answer that's fine.

I can't speak for Rich, but I do get his point about the mistakes we made in the past, and maybe can answer your question because there is an impact to all. It's an important discussion point.

1. Kim and I accommodated people in the old forums to the point that the software was quite broken.
2. We did not move forward with new software until security and maintenance was hopelessly impacted by the brokenness.
3. The other type of resulting brokenness was that YT lacked the most basic features expected in a forum on the internet.. and...
4. Part of the YT community never moved mentally beyond that brokenness, treating it as a feature and a method of organizing their reading.

Most important, #2 has been corrected... but...

I'm making changes to this software to accommodate again, and those changes will propagate #4 into the future resulting in a repeat of #3.

Quite simply, no one can use this filter and see threads by people taking advantage of one of the most important features, which is that a thread with an older start date can be the most interesting and relevant thread at a given point and time. Shielding users from threads older than 2 days is the point of the filter, and also its destructive power. Clicking the box for this filter actually is saying:

All communication older than 2 days is of no interest to me

because that is what it is doing. I don't think anyone would actually say that except for a special purpose search of a forum (which is likely why this filter was not persistent, but would reset itself with each use, I would guess the developer realized the chaos keeping it on would create).

Of course old threads right now are worse than irrelevant. They are mistakes made by people having difficulty with making the transition. We get that some people get very upset or confused when those threads appear, but they are mistakes. That doesn't change the fact that in a forum, threads with an old start date are very relevant when people start to understand how forums work. I gave the example of a restoration or repair thread. It is started when the job starts, it runs for years and beyond. If this type of thread is disliked because it's date is not within the last couple of days, then I'm not sure why someone would be interested in YT. This also applies to off-topic, if the individual is remodeling their kitchen, they will likely want to show the progress every week, their efforts to do so will be ignored by anyone running the filter.

Forums are organized, not by the start date of a thread, but by the latest post, and there is a very good reason. The latest post on a thread is the most current information in a forum, often more current than threads started with a newer start date. When the thread pops to the top of the thread list, it is because it has now become the most relevant in a time sense. On the other hand, when people stop making the mistakes they are right now, the start date of a thread is only relevant because of the flaws in classic view which caused people to pattern their reading such that date was somehow meaning something that it doesn't. All it means is, that web pages could not be sorted quickly enough in the 90s when Classic View was written, so the thread list could not remain current. Threads stopped solely because of a technical restriction in the software, not because they were done. On classic, a few people might page down and reply to the thread older than 2 days, but most would not and the conversation would die before the discussion was actually done.

If, for example, a quarter of the YT community uses the filter permanently, valid and interesting threads will not be seen by them. This will force other people to resort to the work-around that was necessary in Classic View, which was to post a new thread every 2 or 3 days to continue discussing the exact same subject and fragment their project into little pieces.

Imagine if email worked as this filter worked. Important replies that we need to see, would place themselves pages down from the top of our current inbox at the point we started talking to that person. Yet we don't see our inbox as a mess, we see it as pertinent information bubbling to the top as it should. This is how forums work too and I think every other type of electronic communication, because, what is being said now, at this point in time, is relevancy for the specific topic. What is "being said now", is the post, not the thread. Having thread start date determine what is relevant is kind of weird, because an old software restriction is determining what you "want" to read rather than you making that decision.

Again, it's extremely important for this discussion, to divorce the issue that people are making a lot of mistakes right now and reviving threads that should not be revived. The filter will work around this so people don't see red when it happens because it will for awhile, but it's a big loss not to transition to where the most current information is what one sees in their thread list, and will cause YT to still lack the features that have been expected by forums for about 20 years.

If I understand the discussion you and Rich had, this hopefully explains why it does impact everyone. The participation of a person running the filter is wanted, needed and valuable, but if they can't see it, they will not be participating. If a percentage of the community doesn't change it's paradigms from the classic restrictions, YT may continue to have the software restrictions Classic View created long after those actual restrictions were gone. People will ask follow-on questions and never get answers, people will document their projects in little fragments that are useless to anyone doing the same project. Meaningful posts will result in "crickets" .

 

[Rich'sToys]

The problem I have and have not found a cure to yet, is that every time someone replies to a post whether it is new or several years old it comes to the top of the list, each time it is commented on.

But when you click on that thread, it should go straight to the latest comment, so you don't have to re-read the whole thing. At least on mine it does. I like it that way. It's the same as another forum I belong to. And if I don't want to read it, I skip over it.

I am not using the threaded view.

Edit: Chris posted his reply while I was typing this one, so did not see it till after I had posted. Thanks for the explanation. You said it very well. Thanks for all you do!

 

[cpratt]

But when you click on that thread, it should go straight to the latest comment, so you don't have to re-read the whole thing. At least on mine it does. I like it that way. It's the same as another forum I belong to. And if I don't want to read it, I skip over it.

I am not using the threaded view.

It does that with threaded view too, but there is a difference. It goes to the first NEW post, but there may be other new posts scattered throughout and you end up having to scroll down further to make sure you don't miss anything else. It's the downside of running threaded view but would have taken much longer to come up with a way to get around that (like having a "Next New" button, that would have been a nightmare to develop). Normal view as you run is much cleaner in this respect, because the first new is right next to the other new posts. Problem is, some people hate quotes and that's then the only way to know it was a reply to a specific post. I could have fixed this by making the quote less obtrusive with just a small (in reply to), but then that would take another option since other people like quotes.

All a high-wire balancing act!

 

[Brown David]

It does that with threaded view too, but there is a difference. It goes to the first NEW post, but there may be other new posts scattered throughout and you end up having to scroll down further to make sure you don't miss anything else. It's the downside of running threaded view but would have taken much longer to come up with a way to get around that (like having a "Next New" button, that would have been a nightmare to develop). Normal view as you run is much cleaner in this respect, because the first new is right next to the other new posts. Problem is, some people hate quotes and that's then the only way to know it was a reply to a specific post. I could have fixed this by making the quote less obtrusive with just a small (in reply to), but then that would take another option since other people like quotes.

All a high-wire balancing act!

In a nutshell, I believe that you have created needless work for yourselves by trying to re-create the mess that you had left behind due to a few malcontents who refuse to adapt.

Hats off to you for trying to appease them but I think their position is selfish and disruptive to the site.

Thank you for a much better forum, keep up the good work guys and gals..

 

[Eric in IL]

I can't speak for Rich, but I do get his point about the mistakes we made in the past, and maybe can answer your question because there is an impact to all. It's an important discussion point.

1. Kim and I accommodated people in the old forums to the point that the software was quite broken.
2. We did not move forward with new software until security and maintenance was hopelessly impacted by the brokenness.
3. The other type of resulting brokenness was that YT lacked the most basic features expected in a forum on the internet.. and...
4. Part of the YT community never moved mentally beyond that brokenness, treating it as a feature and a method of organizing their reading.

Most important, #2 has been corrected... but...

I'm making changes to this software to accommodate again, and those changes will propagate #4 into the future resulting in a repeat of #3.

Quite simply, no one can use this filter and see threads by people taking advantage of one of the most important features, which is that a thread with an older start date can be the most interesting and relevant thread at a given point and time. Shielding users from threads older than 2 days is the point of the filter, and also its destructive power. Clicking the box for this filter actually is saying:

All communication older than 2 days is of no interest to me

because that is what it is doing. I don't think anyone would actually say that except for a special purpose search of a forum (which is likely why this filter was not persistent, but would reset itself with each use, I would guess the developer realized the chaos keeping it on would create).

Of course old threads right now are worse than irrelevant. They are mistakes made by people having difficulty with making the transition. We get that some people get very upset or confused when those threads appear, but they are mistakes. That doesn't change the fact that in a forum, threads with an old start date are very relevant when people start to understand how forums work. I gave the example of a restoration or repair thread. It is started when the job starts, it runs for years and beyond. If this type of thread is disliked because it's date is not within the last couple of days, then I'm not sure why someone would be interested in YT. This also applies to off-topic, if the individual is remodeling their kitchen, they will likely want to show the progress every week, their efforts to do so will be ignored by anyone running the filter.

Forums are organized, not by the start date of a thread, but by the latest post, and there is a very good reason. The latest post on a thread is the most current information in a forum, often more current than threads started with a newer start date. When the thread pops to the top of the thread list, it is because it has now become the most relevant in a time sense. On the other hand, when people stop making the mistakes they are right now, the start date of a thread is only relevant because of the flaws in classic view which caused people to pattern their reading such that date was somehow meaning something that it doesn't. All it means is, that web pages could not be sorted quickly enough in the 90s when Classic View was written, so the thread list could not remain current. Threads stopped solely because of a technical restriction in the software, not because they were done. On classic, a few people might page down and reply to the thread older than 2 days, but most would not and the conversation would die before the discussion was actually done.

If, for example, a quarter of the YT community uses the filter permanently, valid and interesting threads will not be seen by them. This will force other people to resort to the work-around that was necessary in Classic View, which was to post a new thread every 2 or 3 days to continue discussing the exact same subject and fragment their project into little pieces.

Imagine if email worked as this filter worked. Important replies that we need to see, would place themselves pages down from the top of our current inbox at the point we started talking to that person. Yet we don't see our inbox as a mess, we see it as pertinent information bubbling to the top as it should. This is how forums work too and I think every other type of electronic communication, because, what is being said now, at this point in time, is relevancy for the specific topic. What is "being said now", is the post, not the thread. Having thread start date determine what is relevant is kind of weird, because an old software restriction is determining what you "want" to read rather than you making that decision.

Again, it's extremely important for this discussion, to divorce the issue that people are making a lot of mistakes right now and reviving threads that should not be revived. The filter will work around this so people don't see red when it happens because it will for awhile, but it's a big loss not to transition to where the most current information is what one sees in their thread list, and will cause YT to still lack the features that have been expected by forums for about 20 years.

If I understand the discussion you and Rich had, this hopefully explains why it does impact everyone. The participation of a person running the filter is wanted, needed and valuable, but if they can't see it, they will not be participating. If a percentage of the community doesn't change it's paradigms from the classic restrictions, YT may continue to have the software restrictions Classic View created long after those actual restrictions were gone. People will ask follow-on questions and never get answers, people will document their projects in little fragments that are useless to anyone doing the same project. Meaningful posts will result in "crickets" .

Thanks for your explanation. I understand what you are conveying.

On one hand I see benefit of a lengthy topic going on for a couple years. IF (and only if) the thread has frequent activity.

On the other hand I see frustration if that lengthy topic only has activity every two months. I personally will have forgotten where the project was, and I'll be in the same place as I am now with what you say is people making mistakes.

I guess my strategy for now will be to remove the first message filter every month or so for about three days running. That should give me a taste of seeing if any of the community has changed their posting habits. Maybe if things evolve to what you are hoping for, I'll be able to leave the first message filter off. Evolution and time will have the answer for me.

Thanks again.

 

[DoubleO7]

On one hand I see benefit of a lengthy topic going on for a couple years. IF (and only if) the thread has frequent activity.

I disagree.
There should be no time limit as to when a better solution or another acceptable solution is allowed to be added to a thread.

I think outright off topic chit chat type threads should be locked or deleted after a set time.

One prime example might be the weather threads. Even tho farm related, what value do they have after a couple of weeks?

 

[cpratt]

Thanks for your explanation. I understand what you are conveying.

On one hand I see benefit of a lengthy topic going on for a couple years. IF (and only if) the thread has frequent activity.

On the other hand I see frustration if that lengthy topic only has activity every two months. I personally will have forgotten where the project was, and I'll be in the same place as I am now with what you say is people making mistakes.

I guess my strategy for now will be to remove the first message filter every month or so for about three days running. That should give me a taste of seeing if any of the community has changed their posting habits. Maybe if things evolve to what you are hoping for, I'll be able to leave the first message filter off. Evolution and time will have the answer for me.

Thanks again.

I hear what you're saying. It depends on the project. I documented my rebuilds and one was over two years. There were a few months while I was searching for a block where there was no activity. My block was cracked and had to be tanked, that took like a month. Second block I got had to go in for another month only to find out it was cracked. Third time, same process again so had I been updating it on here, it could have been almost three months without activity (though I probably would have reported those frustrations and shown the located cracks since they related to a weakness in the webbing of that block design which is valuable information for other people).

I did build my own mill (to cut out guitars and necks via CNC design) a few years ago and used a forum to document and discuss the build, that was like weekly updates for about 5 months. The thread was instrumental in me figuring it out. Do it yourselfers do this sort of thing a lot and it's the real value of a forum like YT (for its subject matter). We've never been able to support such a thing due to classic's thread sort order limitations. Social media doesn't work for this sort of thing, which is the only reason forums still exist. I tried to give YT the capability with "Project Journals", but that was not well received because it was not a part of the forums and no one ever looked at those pages. So we were still stuck with classic stopping that sort of communications from happening. Then, in bringing the Yanmar forum over, I was impressed that people could come in, ask a question, start the job and come back and get more info on why it wasn't working as the posters had said it would. This sort of communications is the heart and soul of why we started YT.

 

[Rich'sToys]

In a nutshell, I believe that you have created needless work for yourselves by trying to re-create the mess that you had left behind due to a few malcontents who refuse to adapt.

Hats off to you for trying to appease them but I think their position is selfish and disruptive to the site.

Thank you for a much better forum, keep up the good work guys and gals..

My thoughts also.

 

[john in la]

First a question.
Where is and how do I get to preferences.

As for the discussion here.
With all the new boards maybe we should add a ongoing restoration project board.

Personally I don’t want to read I installed the water pump today and a week later I installed the starter.
You got a problem installing the starter and need help I’m all ears and what I thought this board was all about. One person helping another person fix his tractor.
But once I explain how to install the starter and you get it installed that is basically a dead post. Someone coming back 3 months later and adding their two cents is meaningless. The starter is already installed.

Bottom line is we lived with classic for 20 years I think we can make out a few more years without reading outdated post.

While I could just pass over a post I don’t want to read I have already seen a new post asking a question I can answer be pushed to the bottom of the first page easily going to the second page because 5th page popular post get brought to the top.
For this same reason I have come to dislike the puzzles. One or two puzzles is fine but 10 puzzles a day is pushing legitimate current questions far down the page where you have to dig to find them.
When we had the old classic view I very seldom looked at the second page and never anything past the second page.

 

[cpratt]

First a question.
Where is and how do I get to preferences.

As for the discussion here.
With all the new boards maybe we should add a ongoing restoration project board.

Personally I don’t want to read I installed the water pump today and a week later I installed the starter.
You got a problem installing the starter and need help I’m all ears and what I thought this board was all about. One person helping another person fix his tractor.
But once I explain how to install the starter and you get it installed that is basically a dead post. Someone coming back 3 months later and adding their two cents is meaningless. The starter is already installed.

Bottom line is we lived with classic for 20 years I think we can make out a few more years without reading outdated post.

While I could just pass over a post I don’t want to read I have already seen a new post asking a question I can answer be pushed to the bottom of the first page easily going to the second page because 5th page popular post get brought to the top.
For this same reason I have come to dislike the puzzles. One or two puzzles is fine but 10 puzzles a day is pushing legitimate current questions far down the page where you have to dig to find them.
When we had the old classic view I very seldom looked at the second page and never anything past the second page.

To get to preferences, click on your username up toward the upper right of the page, select preferences. The First message option is down about 4 or 5 checkboxes and denoted as the "Filter by...".

Restoration and Repair could be a good place for running a thread on the restorations or complex repairs with many steps, since it somewhat duplicates the function of the manufacturer forums and isn't really needed for questions even though questions can still be asked there. If you ever noticed the Project Journals, that was where I did running play by play of the various things I did to get through a couple of jobs with their setbacks and surprises. That sort of thing can be helpful to people going through the same process, particularly on the same model but not interesting or seen if done as a 100s of fragmented posts as has been done by others in the past. In my case, it wasn't to ask questions, I would have done that in the AC forum, it was just to document my restoration and rebuild process. With the filter turned on, you won't have to see these so it's not intrusive.

Once you've set the filter on, you won't see the threads started in the past any longer, which sounds like what you are describing as your preference.

If the puzzles are set up as a single thread and new puzzles added as posts, then those running the filter won't see them unless they locate and "watch" the thread. The option is there now and these are on-going self-inspired features by those who do puzzles or photo streams. It's a small minority who use the filter, so it won't impact the popularity of such features. Fragmenting them into individual threads actually makes it harder for people to find since the must use search (though I'm sure search engines do a good enough job of finding them). This isn't a choice we can make, it's up to the people who put in the efforts to create them how they want to create them and there were no options in the past.

 

[DoubleO7]

For this same reason I have come to dislike the puzzles. One or two puzzles is fine but 10 puzzles a day is pushing legitimate current questions far down the page where you have to dig to find them.
When we had the old classic view I very seldom looked at the second page and never anything past the second page.

Well, when you change your Preferences to show "Order by First message" so that it is like the beloved Classic View, here is what you are going to get on T&F Talk for example:
Out of 25 entries per page (that count does not change like in CV)
You are going to wade thru twelve Tractor pics and/or puzzles.
And four other non Tractor & Farm Talk threads. As of this moment.
Then if it is a super slow day, you might see 25 tractor pics and/or puzzles per 25 entries per page.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

I do appreciate this and I’m afraid I have been one of the ones stumbling into the old posts that pop up. I also think that it would be a great idea to do the project thread I always was kind of disappointed if you look at the project journal too there’s not much there. I wonder if it would get more traction in the restoration forum attached to it somehow. I’ve been busier with customer projects as of late there’s a beautiful G that isn’t rightly mine to share but have found some pictures of the 3010, 2510 and of course the unstyled b lawn mower that are ones I’ve owned. I’m thinking the right place is the restoration forum?

 

[cpratt]

I do appreciate this and I’m afraid I have been one of the ones stumbling into the old posts that pop up. I also think that it would be a great idea to do the project thread I always was kind of disappointed if you look at the project journal too there’s not much there. I wonder if it would get more traction in the restoration forum attached to it somehow. I’ve been busier with customer projects as of late there’s a beautiful G that isn’t rightly mine to share but have found some pictures of the 3010, 2510 and of course the unstyled b lawn mower that are ones I’ve owned. I’m thinking the right place is the restoration forum?

Yes, it seems like a natural place for a restoration thread. Others might want to use the manufacturer forum for the make and model they are restoring but either seem very good. If we create a separate forum for project journals, we can always move them there very easily on request.

 

[stevieb49829]

Yes, it seems like a natural place for a restoration thread. Others might want to use the manufacturer forum for the make and model they are restoring but either seem very good. If we create a separate forum for project journals, we can always move them there very easily on request.

I couldn't tell if this is just brainstorming, or if it is operational? And like others, I have pieces of my project scattered over the last couple of years in here, somewhere. Would we be able to pull those forward into a consolidated project thread? steve

 

[cpratt]

I couldn't tell if this is just brainstorming, or if it is operational? And like others, I have pieces of my project scattered over the last couple of years in here, somewhere. Would we be able to pull those forward into a consolidated project thread? steve

I plan to do that, but it's a manual process since I used the Project Journals. Kim may know if there is a way to search for your threads on the subject and consolidate them. I think there must be considering what she did with the new manufacturer forums. It may depend on whether they went in with a semi-consistent subject or some part of the text.

 

[stevieb49829]

I plan to do that, but it's a manual process since I used the Project Journals. Kim may know if there is a way to search for your threads on the subject and consolidate them. I think there must be considering what she did with the new manufacturer forums. It may depend on whether they went in with a semi-consistent subject or some part of the text.

Most of mine could be found using a consistently named subject. I'm in no hurry, I'm just interested in getting to the point where I can consolidate the specific knowledge it took to complete my project, so others don't get frustrated looking for the whole story. I don't mind putting in the legwork to find my stuff. steve

 

[cpratt]

Most of mine could be found using a consistently named subject. I'm in no hurry, I'm just interested in getting to the point where I can consolidate the specific knowledge it took to complete my project, so others don't get frustrated looking for the whole story. I don't mind putting in the legwork to find my stuff. steve

I looked at a rebuild of Continental F162, and the mention of a 101jr, but I didn't see anything really easy to group by. Try searching (using the advanced search option) for your username as the author and what you think might be consistent keywords. See if a representative number of posts come up.

I realized as I was thinking about it, that we probably don't have a way of consolidating threads into one thread, or at least, all we've done so far is search up and move between forums based on topic keywords. I will find out tomorrow if it's possible to consolidate the threads into a single thread.

 

[Brown David]

I looked at a rebuild of Continental F162, and the mention of a 101jr, but I didn't see anything really easy to group by. Try searching (using the advanced search option) for your username as the author and what you think might be consistent keywords. See if a representative number of posts come up.

I realized as I was thinking about it, that we probably don't have a way of consolidating threads into one thread, or at least, all we've done so far is search up and move between forums based on topic keywords. I will find out tomorrow if it's possible to consolidate the threads into a single thread.

Merging similar thread happens occasionally on other forums I'm on.

I don't have any idea how it's done though.

 

[cpratt]

Merging similar thread happens occasionally on other forums I'm on.

I don't have any idea how it's done though.

There is probably a way, but I haven't touched any admin features other than a few. It's something to take up with the mods to find out.

 

[Jim.ME]

There is probably a way, but I haven't touched any admin features other than a few. It's something to take up with the mods to find out.

Maybe I'm not understanding some of this conversation, apologies if I am off base. I have nothing against anyone or their projects. Would merging the old threads be nice, sure. However, in the large view of things how much real gain is there in finding and merging old threads compared to time spent if it has to be done by a moderator or staff. What happens if a thread or two with important info isn't found and leaves a hole? To me, if a new project can be contained in a thread like a journal, within reason using the software as new posts are made and it is the author's responsibility to post into that thread, going forward that would be good. Chasing to find and consolidate previous threads/posts is not a good use of resources, start now (if possible) and forget looking back. JMHO.