Finally in the Field

[DanielW]

I've only had a little experience wiht NH round balers - and that was more than enough for me. But one thing I do recall helping diagnose a 648 is that those rolls (being idlers) need to turn absolutely freely and easily with no binding or rubbing. It almost looks like your smooth idler roller has walked to one side and is close to rubbing on one side (the top side in that picture). It might just be the picture, but worth making sure it rolls freely and easily. I presume this is similar to the 648, with eccentric lock-collar bearings and that goofy gear-to-gear roller setup to keep them all rolling correctly? Make sure those collars are all tight and those rolls can't walk side-to-side.

Maybe consider some heavy weld beads on the smooth roll to give some traction? Take a look at this picture from a modified sledge assembly on a 648. Or just buy a Vermeer or Deere and send the NH to the closest port to serve as a boat-anchor. Which (in my experience with NH balers of that era) is about the best use for them.

 

[DanielW]

I'll also add: The core forming path on those NH's is different than most others, but not crazily dissimilar to the F, G, and H series Vermeers. One problem on them that would cause hay to ride up the belts and get jammed between the upper rollers was not so much the location where the hay was getting jammed, but how it was being forced into the belts to begin with. The starter/core-forming roll needed some good traction on it to 'force' the hay into the belts, to deflect the belts into the round shape they should be and start the core rolling. Without some decent traction on the bottom roll, that roll would gently push hay into the belts, but not enough to force the belts to deflect and start the core rolling. Rather than start a core, the hay would just ride straight up the belts like an elevator and jam somewhere at the top. The Deere 30 and 35 series baler had pretty much the same problem.

The two solutions in those cases were to ease off the belt tension a little, so the crop being forced into them would cause the belts to deflect properly and start a core rolling. And also to put some heavy weld beads (some people eve used flat bar/key-stock on that roller to help force hay toward the belts and start the core turning. Something like the red dots in this picture. It was a quick/easy fix for a lot of folks baling canary or sudan: Open the gate, lay some ugly weld beads across that roll, and head back to the field.

 

[Destroked 450]

I’m curious as to which roll the hay is wrapping around myself, I’ve been running NH balers for over 20 years, I have been having issues starting a bale at times but usually it just plugs the pickup or on occasion it’ll wrap hay around the bottom starter roll. This issue was the same on my old 640 silage special as it is on my present BR7070, the 640 (purchased used) was 20 years old (94 model) with original belts when I sold it having made over 20,000 bales. The 2012 BR7070 was a left over dealer demonstrator with 250 bales on the clock when purchased in 2014, it has around 10,000 bales on the counter now
I need to replace the belts and though belt wear may be my issue, but after watching the one video I’ll be checking the bar wear on the rollers, won’t be a big issue adding some square stock just to see if that will help
Stemmy Johnson Grass is hard to get cured unless crimped or tedded to bend and breakup the stems, also a roped windrow is harder to get bent over in the bale chamber to start a roll, a narrow roped wind rim will form a ball pushing the belts apart if you don’t weave back and forth across the windrow to get hay all across the bale chamber
Not sure where your located or what your hay drying weather is but here in central Ky even with conditioning I’ve never been no able to bale Johnson Grass the day after it was cut, conditioned even after two days drying the bales get pretty warm, unconditioned there’s still a fair bit of moisture in the stems after 3 days

 

[farmersamm]

All rollers have new bearings, and gears. The follower roll bearing was redesigned (by me) to get rid of the ridiculous pillow block style bearings that fail religiously. I went with a square bore, non self centering, bearing used in the more modern version of this baler. Get around to putting up the mods later. Side clearance is around .040 per side.........as originally specified. This, despite much crap I've gotten to the contrary, is a highly precision bit of equipment. The sledge frame/roller tolerances are TIGHT.

Previously, prior to the rebuild...............I removed some of the rubber on the starter roll, and added 1/4 square stock. It helped somewhat. My present thinking, is that it might be necessary to remove ALL of the rubber, and add more square stock. Modern versions have a smooth roller with square stock welded to it.

When I bought the machine, the existing cleats had been welded to build them up. I added the additional cleats. Same height as the original cleats. Feeding, once the bale is started, is extremely aggressive. It eats the hay.

This is the forward portion of the sledge roll, and the cavity directly behind the twine box. It has been mostly cleared in the field, before bringing it back to the house. The entire cavity was filled,, and hay was climbing to the top of the baler. This happens lightning fast. It's game over. The core hasn't rolled, and it's plugged.

The plug between the follower roll, and belts...........and the stripper roll..........is incredible. If not caught immediately, it will twist the belts, and lay them on top of each other. The hay is unremovable without the pick axe thingy I built. It's that tight.

The floor roller, stuffer, and pickup tines,, will merrily keep pushing hay into the chamber until it's solidly plugged. Again, within a few feet of the hay starting to climb out of the baler. And, as said............this thing will EAT hay at high ground speed, once the core is formed. I'm not positive that I have a pickup/floor roller problem.

 

[farmersamm]

I’m curious as to which roll the hay is wrapping around myself, I’ve been running NH balers for over 20 years, I have been having issues starting a bale at times but usually it just plugs the pickup or on occasion it’ll wrap hay around the bottom starter roll. This issue was the same on my old 640 silage special as it is on my present BR7070, the 640 (purchased used) was 20 years old (94 model) with original belts when I sold it having made over 20,000 bales. The 2012 BR7070 was a left over dealer demonstrator with 250 bales on the clock when purchased in 2014, it has around 10,000 bales on the counter now
I need to replace the belts and though belt wear may be my issue, but after watching the one video I’ll be checking the bar wear on the rollers, won’t be a big issue adding some square stock just to see if that will help
Stemmy Johnson Grass is hard to get cured unless crimped or tedded to bend and breakup the stems, also a roped windrow is harder to get bent over in the bale chamber to start a roll, a narrow roped wind rim will form a ball pushing the belts apart if you don’t weave back and forth across the windrow to get hay all across the bale chamber
Not sure where your located or what your hay drying weather is but here in central Ky even with conditioning I’ve never been no able to bale Johnson Grass the day after it was cut, conditioned even after two days drying the bales get pretty warm, unconditioned there’s still a fair bit of moisture in the stems after 3 days

This was ready to bale about 3 days after cutting. Laid on the ground for 3 days, then windrowed with V rake. We've been running near on high 90's every day here. Winds, as usual, are fairly high here in OK. Prairie Hay is a bale-in-a-day proposition if you have a big crew cutting, raking, and baling.

 

[farmersamm]

The old 846 chain baler had a cam that came our of the side wall of the baling chamber. It held the apron chain up to form a nice rolling cavity. The pickup, and floor chains, pushed the hay into the revolving cavity formed by the cross bars, and immediately started rolling. It was one of the best systems ever engineered. Sperry Rand owned the company at the time. They were great at killing folks during the Viet Nam War, and I suppose their expertise lent itself to making working balers.

 

[farmersamm]

I did read, somewhere, that early Vermeer owners would unlatch the tailgate during core forming...........to take pressure off the belts. Once the core started to roll, they closed the gate. Just sayin' what I read......but it does give some insight.

 

[farmersamm]

BTW............THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS Y'ALL........I APPRECIATE IT.

 

[farmersamm]

While visiting the doc to see about the tinnitus from the accident, we stopped by Lowes.

Oil base paint
Bag of Playground Sand
Paint rollers, and trays

On the way to the doc, K'kins called one of her suppliers to see if they had anti skid paint. Her rep said to skip the expensive stuff, and make our own. Costs about 1/3 the price of the fancy stuff. For a last ditch experiment, it's a lot easier on the wallet to make the paint, than buy it. There's absolutely no guarantee this is gonna work......................Deep in my soul, I'm thinking it won't........but if you don't try(shrug)

 

[farmersamm]

DRussell: The fingers look like a good solution. Not sure there's enough meat, or clearance, to do such a thing in this baler. It is interesting that this is a problem that's shared by many of these balers. I'm not sure why it bales with damp hay...........my thoughts have always leaned towards more traction when wet, but your thoughts might just be spot on (flexibility). Last year when the hay was full of Blackberries, it baled better...... The thorns adding traction??

DanielW: Did the round stock welded to the dimpled rollers actually work? Looks to be something around 1/8" diameter stuff(maybe a tad larger). One of the problems adding cleats, is the tiny bit of clearance between these rollers. Anything large diameter would have to be timed so that when rolling, the cleats wouldn't hit each other. Same same with the factory seams on the rollers.....they have to be timed so that they don't hit each other. Yes.......this baler would make an ideal boat anchor!!

 

[farmersamm]

You have to visualize the bag o' sand under the garbage bag It rained about 2 1/2" inches last night, and K'kins got up early, and put the sand bag in the barrow for me. Might rain more today, and is supposed to rain over the weekend.

The lady at the store said that we would have to continually stir the paint/sand mixture while painting. Otherwise the sand will settle to the bottom. The plan is to coat the stripper roll, and the one directly beneath it.

Grasping at straws? You betcha

Edit: You might notice that the wheelbarrow has an all metal frame. It's the Uranus Inc upgrade kit. I got fed up with the usual wooden frames that can't handle weather exposure. This is a 100 year frame now (did it maybe 20yrs ago).

 

[DRussell]

While visiting the doc to see about the tinnitus from the accident, we stopped by Lowes.

Oil base paint
Bag of Playground Sand
Paint rollers, and trays

On the way to the doc, K'kins called one of her suppliers to see if they had anti skid paint. Her rep said to skip the expensive stuff, and make our own. Costs about 1/3 the price of the fancy stuff. For a last ditch experiment, it's a lot easier on the wallet to make the paint, than buy it. There's absolutely no guarantee this is gonna work......................Deep in my soul, I'm thinking it won't........but if you don't try(shrug)

Interesting idea, but like you I'm extremely skeptical that this will work.

DRussell: The fingers look like a good solution. Not sure there's enough meat, or clearance, to do such a thing in this baler. It is interesting that this is a problem that's shared by many of these balers. I'm not sure why it bales with damp hay...........my thoughts have always leaned towards more traction when wet, but your thoughts might just be spot on (flexibility). Last year when the hay was full of Blackberries, it baled better...... The thorns adding traction??

Blackberries, and any type of vining material in general have a more grippy texture to the leaves than coarse stemmy hay. I'm thinking the reason it baled better last year is the grippy texture within the plants of what you were baling.

Do you know anyone who has a crimper you could borrow and as a test, try crimping a few rows and see how it bales after being crimped vs not crimped?

I think the essential problem is a design flaw in the baler that causes a very narrow window of conditions where it will bale ok. As soon as you are outside that very narrow window, it won't start a bale.

 

[UAFitter]

I think I would probably paint the roller and sprinkle the sand on while the paint was wet, rather than try to mix the two and apply the mixture.

You want to spend nothing and get everything, and in my experience that trick never works. You bought the baler you could afford in a hurry, and “act in haste, repent at leisure” has reared its head. I don’t think you can make the blanket statements you’ve been making as to the baler being junk since it was new when the original owner ran it long and hard enough to wear it as far out as they did. Why can’t you start baling at 10 pm or whenever the dew has set, rather than wait til 6? You’re baling thick, long broomstraw, and as usual every good suggestion you get is met with a dismissive response. I’ll point out that the guys giving those suggestions are people who successfully bale hay, which makes their advice and insight valuable in my opinion.

 

[farmersamm]

Put the goo on the two shiny upper rollers. All pics on the internet show the bottom dimpled roller with intact paint after years of use. This tells you that this particular roller doesn't see much pressure from the hay. The roller with intact paint always seems to be the pivot roller. The shiny rollers always seem to be the same.

The new schmooooo is rough. I don't feel it will last for more than a few bales. THE IDEA IS TO FIND OUT WHETHER IT ACTUALLY MAKES THE POS WORK LIKE IT SHOULD. If so, it's a matter of doing something more permanent. Yeah...........you can weld all sorts of crap on the rollers, but there are consequences..........mainly the limited clearance between rollers. This limits the height of the cleats you might add. A few threads, spread across the internet, have mentioned this.........AS WELL AS ME EARLIER. It's a roller timing issue.

THIS IS A PIC OFF THE INTERNET......................

To install a cleat on a dimpled roller required grinding down the dimples. This is untenable. These rollers are made of 12ga, or thinner, material. You CANNOT SIMPLY GRIND OUT THE DIMPLES. You create a perforated line.............leading to roller failure. At best, as I addressed Daniel on the issue, you might get away with maybe 1/8 round stock placed atop the dimples.............which will create timing issues. THIS WAS ADDRESSED IN A THREAD I CAME ACROSS. New Holland, at one time, sent warranty/upgrade kits to the disgruntled owners of these balers. Crap to be welded on to the rollers to help bales start.

To get by, until I can get the proper grinding wheel, I gouged the starter roll. The load on the grinder was excessive when trying to grind the rubber off with a heavy grit steel grinding wheel. Rather than ruin an expensive grinder, I cut slots. Might work, might not. Either way, the rubber has to come off eventually.

There's a plethora of negative experiences out there concerning this particular model, and this era of NH production. These were the transition from the very successful chain balers of the 70's, and 80's. And..........as evidenced by some of the videos I linked to in this thread.........there are still problems with the belt balers from NH.

Up to this point........I'VE HAD SOME SINCERE OFFERS OF POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS FROM A COUPLE OF GUYS. I very carefully responded with pictures of the very same things I've done............which mirror those suggestions. At least those guys TRIED to help..........and thanks for it.

The textured paint is more of a diagnostic thing. If it works...........it isolates the problem to the two rollers that were coated. From there, it's a matter of finding a permanent solution.

If anybody cares to actually, and I mean ACTUALLY look at the evolution of this design............they will see a multitude of "upgrades" over the life of the design. THIS TELLS YOU THAT IT'S A PARTIAL FAILURE. These balers make the tightest, most square shouldered, bale out there.....but they have issues. Boeing airplanes fly great, until a door blows out, or the other fatal flaw that caused 2 to crash with incredible loss of life. Only an idiot takes anything at the stated value supplied by the manufacturer.

If it makes any difference, which I guess it won't...........................I can document the entire rebuild process on this machine. Probably a waste of time....... This is not a "clapped out" baler. It's been returned to OEM condition.

If there's something I missed..................I'd be eternally grateful to the person who points it out. Sometimes the solution is staring you in the face.

The old chain baler built my confidence in the brand..................this particular machine has destroyed it.

 

[DRussell]

I'm very curious as to whether this makes it start a bale. Have you had a chance to try it yet?

On the line of a permanent fix, how far above the rollers do the dimples extend, 1/8 inch or maybe 3/16? Would you be able to weld a cleat down on the roller at the base of the dimples, not up on top of them? Just wondering if that would give you a bit more clearance between the rollers and still let you get something in there that would give the traction you need.

Lastly, what was in the kit that New Holland sent out as their fix? I presume that kit is no longer available, but knowing what it was and if it actually worked should help direct a solution.

I still think crimping your hay might make a significant difference in how this baler starts a bale. Have you ever tried to bale softer, less stemmy grass hay like Timothy or Orchard Grass with it?

 

[miner09]

View attachment 122726
Nothing terribly fancy, essentially a pick axe sorta thing. Pound it into the plugged gap, and rock some of the wedged crop out. This loosens it enough to be able to use a thinner piece of metal to push the rest out. It's still a miserable job.

There's a 3/8" gap between the belts, and the stripper roll. The belts are pulling hay into this gap. I believe I could make a removeable filler strip to close the gap, but it would entail some welding on the sledge frame. This would require removing the sledge roller frame. Any welding will cause distortion, which would have to be dealt with by using heat on the opposite side of the frame. This can't be done with the frame up against the bale chamber. So, it sucks big time.

View attachment 122727

Ridiculous design. The hay is shoved up against the top, where the belt runs over the roller. As the belt, which is new, and aggressive, moves the hay upwards..................it gets sucked in between the belt and the top roll(stripper roll) in the core forming area.

View attachment 122728
This is the roller that carries the belts. It's absolutely asinine to have that huge gap between it, and the other roller. Before I rebuilt the baler, it had slick belts.....completely worn out. So, naturally I never encountered this problem before. The slick belts couldn't shove the crop through the gap.

The discussion pertaining to rollers starts at 6:00 minutes. Hay going between belts, and stripper roller. Includes references to bale starting issues.

The discussion pertaining to starting dry hay rolls, and belt issues, starts at 10:30 minutes. Includes trying to modify the rollers to start dry hay.........which in this case worked. My baler doesn't have enough clearance between the rollers to add any square stock.

Best balers on the Planet............yeahView attachment 122729

When we get plugged up with hay it’s usually because the hay is little green. Make sure it’s dry and then we never stop. Yes it h!!! Of a job to get out.

 

[farmersamm]

I'm very curious as to whether this makes it start a bale. Have you had a chance to try it yet?

On the line of a permanent fix, how far above the rollers do the dimples extend, 1/8 inch or maybe 3/16? Would you be able to weld a cleat down on the roller at the base of the dimples, not up on top of them? Just wondering if that would give you a bit more clearance between the rollers and still let you get something in there that would give the traction you need.

Lastly, what was in the kit that New Holland sent out as their fix? I presume that kit is no longer available, but knowing what it was and if it actually worked should help direct a solution.

I still think crimping your hay might make a significant difference in how this baler starts a bale. Have you ever tried to bale softer, less stemmy grass hay like Timothy or Orchard Grass with it?

We had heavy rain, and it's still too muddy to get out there. Ought to be able to rake it tomorrow. Then, if you happen to be driving by on the highway, you can see me banging my head against the side of the baler when the texture doesn't work

I think you're right about trying to fit the cleat inside the valley between the dimples. I can't get anything smaller than 1/4" round stock from my LWS...........but I think I can source it elsewhere.

https://www.haytalk.com/threads/new-holland-650-clogging-and-very-hard-to-start-a-bale.96050/

This is the thread where I saw mention of the kit, and where I sourced the above picture of the cleat added to the stripper roll(top roll).

On closer inspection of the picture from the thread...................I'M ACTUALLY SEEING WHAT APPEARS TO BE 12GA DIAMONDPLATE THAT'S BEEN EITHER TORCHED, OR PLASMA CUT, TO THE CORRECT WIDTH WHICH WOULD NOT INTERFERE WITH THE ADJACENT ROLLER. It appears to be welded to the roller on edge.

Take a gander at the pic, and see if you're seeing what I'm seeing.

mike10 is/was a NH tech who regularly worked on these balers. I trust his posts.

According to the serial number, my baler was built early in the 3yr lifespan of production. So, there were countless modifications during those 3yrs to correct flaws. There are 3 different iterations of the follower roll bearing design during those years. I have the full set of repair manuals for the baler................they fit in a 4" binder So, I'm not going at this totally blind.....but the manuals don't cover upgrade/retrofit kits.

Time flies when you're having fun.
Apparently I've owned this gem since sometime in 2017.

These were the initial mods I attempted back then..............the ones suggested here. Except for any work to the stripper roll, which seems to be the kicker at this point in time.

BTW...........this was Haygrazer that had been cut with a Mo-Co with a full width crimper. I believe this was the last time I planted the stuff. It's cheaper to let the field grow in Johnson Grass. Johnson Grass is extremely palatable, so it's a good substitution for the Haygrazer,

 

[DRussell]

I think welding the rods on the rollers will be the best solution for this machine. It sounds like that was NewHollands answer for it.

Other than that, buy a Claas Rollant machine.

I own a Gehl roll baler which is a rebranded Welger and essentially the same as a Claas. Never have I ever worried about starting the bale. Just straddle the windrow and drive, just as fast or as slow as you want to go. When the gauge says its done, tie it, dump it, close the gate and go again.

 

[farmersamm]

I think welding the rods on the rollers will be the best solution for this machine. It sounds like that was NewHollands answer for it.

Other than that, buy a Claas Rollant machine.

I own a Gehl roll baler which is a rebranded Welger and essentially the same as a Claas. Never have I ever worried about starting the bale. Just straddle the windrow and drive, just as fast or as slow as you want to go. When the gauge says its done, tie it, dump it, close the gate and go again.

 

[dcarp]

View attachment 123407

Good luck with the baler. I do not have any relevant info about that particular baler. I have followed Mike10 and his info is spot on as far as I can tell. 20 years ago I started with a Case 8465a that needed a number of mods to get it to work right. I managed to make it a very good baler. I then made the decision to move to a netwrap baler 10 years ago. Bit the bullet and bought a new NH roll belt 560. It too needed some minor tweaks but now eats hay as fast as I can drive, usually 7-7.2 mph. Did custom haying until it was paid for. Now we lease ground and do our own & sell what we don’t need. My advice is if you are serious about baling, trade the junk and get a new netwrap baler, whatever color meets your fancy. There are ways to make the money work out. Obviously doing what you are doing now is bad for your operation and more importantly, bad for your mental health.
Whatever you do remember there are a number of folks here rooting for you and wishing you success. A number of us have been in the same position and somehow overcame. You can too. Good Luck.