Gas/Oil saw storage

[Anonymous-0]

Just got two saws back to running,after they sat a while [6 months???]
Both carbs had to be cleaned,one fuel line replaced.
The mixing oil supposed had stablizer in it.
What is the best way to try to prevent this happening again? Drain?? add something?? or what. Thanks

 

[Bus Driver]

Drain and then crank to clear the carburetor.

 

[LJD]

You're doing something wrong. Or you're getting some odd-ball I'm not familiar with. I've got over 30 saws scattered around the country. Many sit six months and some a year without being used. I leave them full of gas that's treated with Stabil. Zero problems ever - and I've been doing that for many years.

 

[Gun guru]

My Stihl has gas/oil mix in it always.....yes always. I dont run the saw in the winter, but at least 1 time per month in the other 3 seasons. Whenever I start the saw I fill the tank to the top with fuel.

 

[Russ from MN]

I try to use each one at least a little every 3-6 months, I do not use stabil and especially no ethanol and I don't have any trouble. Oh, I forgot, last year I put a kit in my Dads 621 Jonsered carburetor, but it's 36 years old!

 

[Stephen Newell]

Usually when I stop using anything for a long period, I run the machine until it's out of fuel. That way the tank as well as the carburetor is relatively dry. Not only is gas bad on rubber fuel lines, it sometimes breaks down and creats varnishs that like to stick to valves.

 

[Gary from Muleshoe]

My Craftsman has sat for as long as 18 months with gas in it and I have never had a problem. All my lawnmowers and garden tractors have gas in them all year long with no treatment of any kind an I have never had a problem. They start and run like new every time.

 

[souNdguy]

gas nowadays is JUNK

I just had to repalce pushrods due to gummed up stuck valves in my ford 4000 ( 4 cyl )

had to drive the valves out with a 3 lb deadblow hammer..

had used it a few weeks before grading a road..

got her back together last night.. switched to synthetic oil, and am now always adding fuel stabilizer 2x does and some atf to the gas...

 

[Butch(OH)]

Neither leave gas in or drain it out has worked well for us and we have 12 saws, it's a hobby OK,,. What has worked very well for us in the off season is to drain the tanks but not run them out of fuel and once a month put fresh fuel in saw 1 and start up then dump saw 1 fuel into saw 2 and go down the line. Sounds like a big tadue buts its realy not.

 

[LJD]

My 1963 Ford 4000 Industrial with hoe and loader with a gas 172 sits 10 months a year without being run and is left at a camp in the NY Adirondacks. It's been there for years and I've never had any issues due to fuel going bad. I use Stabil, yes, but have used gas that's over 2 years old with zero problems.

I don't know what you're getting for fuel where ever you are, but it's yet to ever be an issue here in New York. So far, most of our gas is 10% ethanol but I've yet to witness a single problem.

I'm also kind of wondering why you felt an oil called "synthetic" would improve things?

 

[souNdguy]

in the past I have also used old gas and let tractors set.

I started a NAA that had been setting in a barn for 8ys.. used the same old gas that was still in it. that was 6 ys ago..

gas nowadays is much different.

environment in fl is different than NY as well.

it's constantly hot and humid down here.

since ethanol is a polar solvent, it will absorb water... gas that gets hot will evap off the alcohol first. meains we see wetter gas in areas like florida.

that water can then react with other contaminates and make some darn good gum varnish / glue.

As for the synthetic oil.. and what difference it makes.. I'll guess you jhave no knowledge of oils or engines then right?

Top end is oiled.. meaning the valve stems see some of it.. not much but some.

Synthetics are generally higher detergent than regular base oils.

I'm counting on those extra detergents to help keep things 'cleaner' on the top end especially.

sheesh.... don't understand it so attack it... what a neat way to live and reply to posts.. ????

soundguy

 

[Brad Buchanan]

Ahh sorry, but I live in upstate New York and I have had fuel system issues requiring repair on several Stihl saws and maint. equipment in the last 2 years.

My '52 8N will happily slurp pretty much any thing you put in the tank but it seems that in the last couple of years there has been issues with the gas/ethanol mix.

I know other folk who have had similar issues with small engine fuel systems. Guess it could be a fluke but common sense would indicate not.

I would be interested in your comments.

Brad

 

[JK-NY]

I have several saws , and mix all my 2-cycle gas with the marine sta-bil. In the spring when I am done cutting wood (I heat primarily with wood) I empty out the saw fuel tanks for the summer and run them out of gas. I may leave gas in 1 smaller saw for utility use for part of the summer, but always store them for long term out of gas and it has worked well for me. I have also never had a problem of gas going bad using the 10% ethanol gas mixed with stabil. A few years ago I borrowed a large old Homelite saw from a friend and used it to cut up some large silver maples that were nearly 48" across- too big for my 20" saws. It was stored with gas in it for 10-15 years in a cool basement , and started right up with fresh gas , but shortly quit due to the rubber gas lines all turning gummy and sticking closed from the old gas.

 

[dabees]

Almost everything I have stored without stabilizer over the last 10 years had a problem after 1+ year of storage. I don't drain tank because it seems to condense water worse than a full tank. On the other hand the alcahol in fuel atracts water also. I don't run the carb dry because gaskets and seals dry out. I add stabilizer,cross my fingers and hope for the best.

 

[wisbaker]

I don't have a lot of fuel problems on my L&G stuff or saws, but then I buy premium BP or Shell without alcohol, use Sta-Bil if I know it will set for a while

 

[M-MAN]

I've never had a problem with chainsaw gas getting too old. Pulled my old Stihl out a few weeks ago & she ran fine on gas that was 4 years old. Alway's use Lawn Boy 2 cycle oil even though the saw shop say's not to. Works for me.

 

[LJD]

I can't speak on your problems since you give no specifics. Having a repair on a fuel system does not imply that bad gas had anything to do with the problem. Especially with chain saws.

That being said, the older Stihl saws had more problem with rotting fuel lines then any other saw I've worked on. That was a Stihl problem, not a fuel problem.

Now if you claim you bought fresh gas, put Stabil in it and had it turn dark, smell like varnish from Hell, and rot fuel lines - in a year - I'd wondering where the heck you're getting your fuel.

I just drained 8 year old gas from a car that still ran fine. The fuel WAS going bad and dark, but no damage done.

I'm in central New York (Otsego County) and all our gas is 10% ethanol. I also have a lot of equipment and chainsaws in storage in the Adirondacks (Hamilton County). No problems with fuel in either of those places in NY. I also have a pile of tractors, crawlers and chainsaws in Northern Michigan. They sit 10 months a year with fuel in them. Zero problems. Presque Isle and Alpena Counties.

One thing I can't comment on is what will happen with fuel today. Mixes change all the time. I can say that most of my gas in storage was bought summer and fall when gas is blended different. Winter-blend gas supposedly has a shorter shelf life.

 

[LJD]

I'm not "attacking" anything or anyone. I stated what my own experiences on the subject and questioned "cause and effect" with your's.

Trying to win an argument by claiming I lack knowledge is a big childish. I've been working on heavy equipment, diesels, and injection systems for 50 years.

My question about "synthetic oil" was based on these valid premises.

Many oils sold in the USA are made 100% from petroleum stock and are NOT synthetic. Some are and many are not even though they are sold as "pure synthetic" or "full synthetic."

There is NO correlation between detergency and a label that says "synthetic." Many HD oils sold as conventional have just as high detercency and some even have higher flash points.

And yes, I know what valves stems, valve guides, and cylinder heads are. I have a machine shop here and I've been rebuilding them for many years.

I also know what a Ford 4000 is and own two (old style) along with several 641s and 861s. I'm also quite familiar with the insides of Ford 134s, 144s, and 172s.

You did not mention if your oil is truly a synthetic or just marketed as such. Tier II, III or Tier IV oil? Name brand and specific type with info from the oil datasheet and then a comparison can be made.

Regardless of what you used, I do not believe that bad gas, in less then a year, somehow caused parts in your cylinder-head to get stuck.

I will say I have no knowledge of gasoline blends in Florida. Here in New York, besides the 10% ethanol mess - we have two annual blends of gasoline. Summer blend and winter blend. Winter blend supposedly has a shorter storage life.

I've got over a hundred tractors, 30 cars and trucks, and over 50 chains saws. Yes I've had fuel related problems now and then after something has sat for many years. I've also had a few valves get stuck in heads. All were caused from water intrusion or from sitting MANY years and drying out. I just had to free the valves on my flathead Continental F140 four-banger after it sat outside and had not been started for 15 years.

 

[El Toro]

You should drain the gas from the tanks and start the engine and let it run until it quits.
Then store the saw until you need it. Hal

 

[souNdguy]

air , gum drops and popcorn sure didn't stick the valves in the head.

You got the 'so called - childish' comment after attacking my use of a synthetic for no reason, without first having the info. And by attack, I refer to the condescending remark about asking why an oil dubbed 'syn' would help.. which it clearly COULD, depending on the specific issues at hand. When posts are met with predisposing sarcastic comments.. they get a sarcastic reply. when they are met with reasonable questions, they get a reasonable reply.

It's a top tier full synthetic SN/ ILSAC GF-5 oil.

I chose it as it's add package specifically mentioned reducing gum and varnish deposits along with it's high detergent package. the spec pdf and msds sheets are 46 megs worth of pdf files.. so I've no way to post them here.

I had to hammer the valves out of the head. they were stuck , and stuck good. and covered with a black thick gum deposit. my guess is the last time it was running that gum was nice and hot and spread all ove rthe stems, and when cooled and shut down was like a glue resin, and stuck them valves tight.. next start attempt resulted in multiple damaged push rods.. bent so bad I had to cut them out with a bolt cutter to get them out of the head and block. Had to use actetone to clean the deposits off, lubes with atf oil when reinstalled..

gas stunk like turpentine in the tank...

other people have reported this happening.. i'm not the only case in the universe. consensus is that it is crap / old gas as significant contribuitors to the issue

soundguy

 

[buickanddeere]

I use 100L in all the small engines. They can sit half a year and start on the 1st or 2nd pull.

 

[buickanddeere]

2011 gasoline stores and keeps much better than 1980 gasoline.

 

[souNdguy]

"That was a Stihl problem, not a fuel problem"

I rather think it's still a fuel issue.. at least to the extent that none of the small machine manufacturers has come up with a good ethanol resistant fuel hose in the small tubing sizes needed for chainsays and weed eaters.

I just recently had to re-fuel line all my lawnmowers, atv, chainsaw and string trimmers now that they have been on ethanol solid about 2 ys. old lines cracked and rotted / dried up.

I'm switching to excelon next time it happens... the regualr yellow 'resistant' lines aren't lasting long either apparrently. all the small engine shops here in my area load up for about 2m each spring fixing weed eaters and saws with rotted out lines..

 

[souNdguy]

can't compair.

back inthe 80's I never had enough money to have any 'leftover' gas.

filled up daily and used what I could put in the tank..

 

[LJD]

I'm talking about a problem that predates ehtanol in gasoline at the pump. Stihl saws in the 80s to early 90s had a high failure rate of fuel lines and impulse hoses. It was just a case of poor quality material Stihl was using at that time. The replacement parts from Stihl were just as awful, but aftermarket Viton or EPDM hose held up fine. We were a Stihl dealer yet we started using aftermarket to fix them properly.

I can't speak for the new stuff. All my new saws are Dolmar, Echo and EFCO (my good saws) and Poulan Pro and Husqvarna plastic-case as (my throw-away saws). I've had no fuel problems with any of them - yet. Here in NY, 10% ethanol just got mandated this year so things may change.

 

[LJD]

I've seen (and had) much more problems with small engines that got drained and stored. Especially with diaphram carbs that get dry and the membranes harden.

I also like that metal fuel tanks say cleaner and get less corrosion when left full instead of empty.

 

[LJD]

In 1980 I never had anything full, nor has gas in storage anywhere - so I can't comment with experience.

Here in NY, there have always been two versions of gasoline per year. Winter and summer. The winter blends supposedly are more volatile and have a shorter storage life.

I've got several remote properties where I keep gas in storage. At my place in the Adirondacks I have ten 5 gallon jugs. All are identified with a letter on the tank (A,B, C, or whatever). I keep a notebook on the wall with purchase date of last fill for each tank. This spring of 2011, I had to use up several tanks that were dated June of 2009 and one Nov 2008. No problems whatsoever. I just made sure I didn't dump it in anything that would sit any longer. I used most of it in my Ford 4000 backhoe. When we closed camp this fall, I dumped the 2008 gas in our 1999 Dodge Caravan and drove home. Ran fine.

 

[souNdguy]

reminds me of when diesel down here went to bio diesel blend.

I had diesel leaks on older and some 2000 era equipment as some orings literally disolved into black goo.

spennt the better part of a week chasing down new ressitant orings to make my oil burners stop oozing vital fluids..

 

[cd1]

we've been having good luck with star-tron fuel additive. seeing quite a bit of rubber diaphrams in vacuum fuel pumps go bad and lines dry rotting. along with the water in the gas

 

[Brad Buchanan]

Well I have to surmise that you own some corn-producing land or stock in an ethanol plant.

To my knowledge the main beneficiaries of the ethanol have been corn producers, who have seen the price for their product triple since the government mandated ethanol addition to gasoline.

Who loses?
#1. Food consumers. The high cost of corn has directly affected prices of cereal, sweeteners and countless products that use corn or derivatives in their manufacture.
#2. Any person using e-10 in an internal combustion engine. Ethanol at temperatures up to 200 °F (93 °C) is corrosive to nearly all the
known engineering materials (1). Also present is acetic acid, which attacks plastic and rubber. A lot of folks touting ethanol will say "it never hurt my engine" but I have yet to hear a person say that it improved or even equalled performance using gasoline.


(1) Ethanol corrosion in pipelines, Ramesh Singh, Gulf Interstate Engineering, Houston Texas in MATERIALS PERFORMANCE May 2009.

Brad

 

[GVSII]

Read this whole thread and can't understand why so many folks are haveing problems with stored equip. I don't drain fuel tanks or run them dry.I just add a good amount of valvoline 2 stroke oil and maybe some kerosene to the tank,run the engine until I can smell it in the exhaust and shut the engine down. I have had no problems starting/operating this equip. when the time came.

 

[LJD]

My comment about "synthetic" oil was not meant to be condescending towards you. Towards the companies that overtly market the stuff when it's NOT synthetic - yes.

Due to the mass marketing many feel oil marketed as "synthetic" is superior to all conventional oils and that is not the case. Some of the best petro oils have detergency levels, anti-wear additives, and high heat durability ratings that meet and/or exceed those sold as "synthetic." I keep using quotes because many are not - by the original denotation of the word.

The two big advantages of true synthetic and some super-refined petro-based oils sold as such - is high heat tolerance and consistent viscosity.

I worked on many as you describe it. Not all with exactly the same causes. L-head and overhead valve engines. Ford was known for that problem in autos back late 50s, early 60s - but that was from high heat and lack of lube on the upper end, and the residues on the valve stems turned to a hard varnish.

I don't doubt you had a problem, but I do doubt it can happen from gas going bad in less then year (RE the incipient post here).

 

[Goose]

I can't understand either why so many people have so many problems. I'm probably the worst person on earth for doing anything preventative before letting a small engine sit for awhile, and I never seem to have problems unless something sits for five years or so.

Actually, I've been told by a reputable Stihl dealer that it finally dawned on the various companies to include a Sta-Bil like additive right in their mix oil.

 

[steve terplak]

12 saws?!
wow.
a collection of new saws or older historic/classic saws?
definitely curious.

 

[36 Coupe]

I have avoided comments on this subject because many posters seem to have a boulder head attitude.I started doing small engine in the 50s.I found many lawn mowers that refused to start on old gas.Draining the old gas and putting in fresh would start the engine.Old gas smells like a can of old paint brushes.I have worked on engines and electronics for 60 years now and learn something new every time I work on a problem.I suspect that ethanol and oil subjected to heat can form a resin we call glue.It would take hours of bench work to prove the idea.Add some hardener to boat resin if you dont understand chemical reaction.Ive found info on stuck valves and bent push rods in the Forestry forum.Ive had problems with bad gasoline over the years even though others say they use 8 year old gas with no problems.

 

[MFPoor]

Chris, "someone" has this attitude issue where he (mistakenly) thinks he knows everything. His self proclaimed advanced state of knowledge is based on time spent in the "industry". Funny...I've got MORE years of experience and background with the same general theme, so does that mean I'm "smarter"? MOST of us know that it isn't a given where time accumulated automatically increases knowledge. It does however, tend to make SOME PEOPLE close minded. Time only increases your exposure to the opportunity to gain knowledge.

The old "I know everything, and I don't understand what you're saying, so you MUST be wrong?" logic doesn't stand up in real life.

Gas CAN go bad. It DOES go bad, and there's no specific time table for which gas goes bad. It's very possible (based on REALITY) that gas can go bad in short order. Stating it as "fact" based on the "I haven't seen it proven to me in 50 years" isn't science.....It's plain old fashioned hard headedness. And if a person is unable to grasp simple common ordinary concepts because of being a hard head, who knows just exactly which "facts" accumulated during that 50 years are ALSO nonsense. With some people,their opinions are based strictly upon being hard headed and unable to admit there are things they just don't know.

The rest of us, who aren't so inclined as to think they're incapable of failing to be experts at everything, well, we all know gas can and does go bad, often in a short time frame. (USUALLY from extraordinary "local conditions")

 

[souNdguy]

yep.. me hammering those valves down out of the head with that gummy residue on them was all I needed to see.

anywho.. got them back in.. stems cleaned with acetone.

new gaskets and seals.

flushed the oil, put synthetic in and treated the gas liberally.

she actually runs better than ever, and was already a good runner.

I have a feeling carb was dirty as now I can get a 300 rpm idle. vs the 400 i used to get.

oil pressure came up 5 psi.. not that it was low.. guess that synthetic oil is just a hair better on viscosity mods than the cheap stuff

good to hear from you. hope all is well.

soundguy

 

[souNdguy]

yep.. it exactly smelled like turpentine.. and had turned dark.. had to be bad gas.. can't imagine what else would turn the gas and make it smell.

soundguy

 

[souNdguy]

well.. my top end was oiling fine, i verified that.. so it should not have been a lube issue.

I change the oil 2x a year and due to the # of machines I own. that machine might have only had 20 hrs on that oil... even jiffy store oil add packs should have lasted 20 hrs.. so i doubt it was an oil failure... especially due to the manufacture.. etc.

and for the record I was talking full synthetic.. not hydrocracked..e tc..e tc.

after tearing it down.. I cna't conclude that it was anything OTHER than bad gas.

gas was brown and smelled like turpentine.


gas tank innards had some of the same residue that I cleaned out with acetone that the stems had on it.

I just don't see evidence to the contray yet that it was not gas...

soundguy