Genaral Safety

[GregCO]

Reading the post below got me to thinking about safety in general and how hard it is to control actions of people. I realize most times they are trying to be fast and efficient, but things can go bad in a hurry if corners are cut unintentionally by a short lapse of not thinking things through. I am very sorry for the family involved and the gal that lost her life. Very sad.

I had to fire a guy at work today for not paying attention to his work and putting himself and others at rick. I have talked to him multiple times about working safe and for him it does not soak in. Yesterday was the last straw when he ran one of our bridge cranes into the stops at the end of the rail so hard that it broke the stops off and pushed them through the wall of the building, bent the catwalk so bad that it cannot be used, and crushed the access ladder to the point it is not safe to climb. Now the crane is tagged out of service until repairs can be made. This is a remote operated crane. He was not watching his load and had his back to it while it was traveling assuming the bridge was fallowing him, instead it was traveling in the opposite direction at full speed. He stopped when he and the rest of the shop heard the crash. Then he failed to report the accident and tried to cover it up.

He ignores Lock Out Tag Out procedures, walks under loads, and has been caught riding a load on a crane. All stuff we train on and he chooses to not do properly. After doing write-ups and a couple of suspensions I had no choice but to send him on his way. He was hot under the collar saying all of this safety stuff just slows things down and is not necessary. After letting him vent I told him I had to let him go, that I would rather send him home mad than send him home hurt or dead or seeing him hurt or kill one of his fellow employees.

The work we do is heavy fabrication and the products we make can weigh up to 30 tons. They are not forgiving to not being safe. Had that crane been loaded it likely would have gone through the wall without even slowing down and took the the end of the building with it along with the crane rail and the other crane that runs on the same rail.

Greg

 

[Russ from MN]

You did the right thing, people like that endanger there own live and those around them, and should not be in that position. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of real low skill jobs, otherwise there would be no unemployment.

 

[JayinNY]

I think that post and alot of folks posts are a eye opener or reminder, its just so sad that it took a tragedy like this for everyone to think about what they are doing, two sayings I grew up with we're john deeres, safety live with it, and a construction company I worked for, safety first second is to late. There's lots of dangerous jobs, I think farming and logging are some of the most dangerous, iv done both and have been lucky to never been hurt, and for that I'm thankful. Stay safe.

 

[NCWayne]

Some years back Dad had a customer that complained because he brought me in to help him working on a machine -vs- getting one of their guys to help.

Dad's response to them was that he knew me, he knew how I worked, and he knew I worked safe, therefore we could work together safely.

On the other hand, he didn't know their guy, didn't know how the guy worked, and didn't know whether he knew enough about what was being done to truly work safe.

In the end, he said if they had a problem with me helping, he'd gladly leave right then before he put himself in a position where he got hurt and couldn't go home.

 

[2x4]

Watch out for him. Seems to be fashionable these days to come back armed. Don't underestimate this situation.

 

[WGM]

I'd like to hear comments from all of those guys on here complaining about OSHA

 

[Stephen Newell]

That would be me. By the time a person is old enough to work they should know if they are accident prone or not and not pursue work in dangerous fields. What OSHA has done has caused tool manufacturers and companies to implement safety equipment and procedures to prevent these idiots from hurting themselves. In the process of doing this has made work place more dangerous for the competent workers and have slowed production raising costs which in part is sending jobs overseas. When you make a tool cumbersome you just make it more dangerous. In the last 40+ years probably 99 out of 100 accidents I've had were a result of safety equipment.

 

[Bret4207]

All the safety engineering in the world, all the warning decals and safety lectures, all the lockouts and fall rigging, none of it will ever defeat the determined idiot.

 

[LAA]

Safe work places are not the result of, or dependent upon the existence of OSHA. All OSHA amounts to is another government agency staffed with mostly career incompetents who are members of federal unions and primarily concerned with extending their benefits and shortening their path to full retirement. Insurance companies have much more to do with safe work places than any form of government, it costs money to hurt people and insurance companies do not like paying out money, they have successfully applied the pressure to many industries in a manner that all can understand, their bottom line. The world revolves around money, nothing changes anywhere at any time without an economic incentive to do so.

 

[moresmoke]

Guess he was expecting a ribbon for crashing the crane?

I occasionally have to work with coworkers that I do not trust to work safely. Always makes for an enjoyable stress free day. Not.

 

[Spook]

(quoted from post at 06:21:44 11/19/16) Safe work places are not the result of, or dependent upon the existence of OSHA. All OSHA amounts to is another government agency staffed with mostly career incompetents who are members of federal unions and primarily concerned with extending their benefits and shortening their path to full retirement. Insurance companies have much more to do with safe work places than any form of government, it costs money to hurt people and insurance companies do not like paying out money, they have successfully applied the pressure to many industries in a manner that all can understand, their bottom line. The world revolves around money, nothing changes anywhere at any time without an economic incentive to do so.

And OSHA rules provide the legal basis for a lawsuit if they are ignored. That costs money, that's where the insurance industry comes in. NO rules = NO lawsuit. And those rules have saved lives.

 

[504]

The problem I am seeing is not OSHA inspectors, it is the insurance inspectors who are making up regulations as they go. The latest fad, seems to be that you can not store Argon and Oxygen in the same cage,or with Flammables. They want to keep all of the gases separated from each other,if this catches on it will cost companies a fortune keeping things separate for nothing.

 

[rossow (mn)]

A few years ago my son-in-law got fired from his job at a flour mill. His supervisor told him to lift him (the supervisor) on a forklift to reach something on a shelf. Being a very non-confrontational (sort of timid) sort, my SIL obeyed his supervisor's request even though he knew it was a violation. At that moment, the supervisor's boss, who didn't like the supervisor, showed up, and both my SIL and his supervisor got fired. My SIL was told it wasn't his fault for obeying his superior, but to fire the supervisor, my SIL had to be let go as well. Sort of a rock-and-a-hard-place situation for my SIL, who didn't even file for unemployment but just went out and found another job because he feared filing would make him get a bad reference. He learned later that the fired supervisor filed and got many weeks of unemployment. Sometimes you can't win.

 

[Determined]

In my opinion telling someone the rules is only half the equation.
Without them understanding the consequences it is only words.
Some are just too inexperienced to understand how expensive or extensive the damage or injuries can be if the rules are not followed.

When I had the shop every employee I hired signed a letter acknowledging two simple rules that violation of would result in instant loss of employment.
1-Releasing a vehicle from the shop without checking with a torque wrench every wheel that had been removed=GOODBYE
2-Working under a vehicle or piece of equipment without proper support/safety stands in place=GOODBYE

Some thought it a bit harsh but once I explained there were no second chances when 5 tons of steel fall off a jack they had no problem signing.
In 12 years there was never a serious incident or need to call an ambulance and I only fired one mouthpiece that was too mighty to think the rules applied to him.
He ran straight to the labour board, they met with me and once they saw the letter they apologized for wasting my time and told him to stop wasting theirs.

 

[LAA]

If your blanket statement crediting OSHA with bench marking the legal basis to press lawsuits
were true then how do you explain all of the industries which are not governed by OSHA rules?
Offshore drilling is one such industry that comes immediately to mind and the rig operators and
contractors all spend hundreds of millions of dollars every year on training, equipment and
facilities to promote and provide a safe work place, they can ill afford lawsuits, downtime, lost
production and damage to their corporate reputations, all of which are among the potential
consequence's of not doing anything. Multinational corporations voluntarily enforce safety codes
all over the world now days if they have assets which could be put in jeopardy as a result of not
enforcing such rules. In most areas of the world now days it is good business to work safely and
in the vast majority of such places there is no OSHA or equivalent to enforce anything.

 

[4wdtom]

You are right about insurance costs. I was a mechanic for a mill/factory that employed about 200. They had a safety program with awards each month, quarter and year for no lost time accidents. The monthly and quarterly were drawings and the 4 monthly winners got things like $50 each, the quartly was one drawing for maybe a TV. The yearly though was $25,000. It was won twice while I was there, 17 years. The first time the $25,000 was a truck, the second time they gave away 25 $1,000 checks. It was made clear this saved the company money and they were happy to do it.

 

[Determined]

4wdtom your post reminded me of a guy I knew years ago that worked for a gas company.
He received his safety award the day before taking a week off for vacation.
Being an amateur woodworker he decided to build a frame for his certificate and ended up cutting the end off of two fingers on his table saw.
Irony

 

[LAA]

About 5 years ago one of our corporate HSE managers was filming a video ''reenacting'' an accident
where a man got one of his fingers cut off, they put a little too much realism in the
''reenactment'' because the HSE manager wound up cutting one of his own fingers off in the same
machine.

 

[john in la]

Taking all that training is sometimes a smoke screen as it gets pushed to the side in the real world.
The word BP comes to mind as I type this.

 

[JMS/.MN]

Some years ago a farm magazine, either Successful Farming or Farm Journal, wanted to do an article on post hole digger dangers. They set up a vid cam to film, and an operator accidentally got wrapped up in the auger!

 

[rrlund]

That was the one that yanked his shirt off wasn't it? In the frame by frame of it,the expression on his face doesn't change until several frames after he's naked from the waste up,that's how fast it happens.

 

[LAA]

That was not caused by a lack of safety training, it was 100% human error. At the time there was a severe shortage of qualified personnel which resulted in people who were not experienced enough to recognize a very simple problem being in the position to make erroneous decisions, if they would have followed their most basic safety training they would have stopped what they were doing and gotten to the bottom of it.

 

[dr sportster]

Anywhere I ever worked if you ignored or in any way violated lock out tag out you would be gone then . Not after you did that remained at work and put crane stops through a wall.

 

[Billy Shafer]

I use to work with high voltage systems. Systems where one mistake and they didn't have to fire you. The system would do it for them. When I worked there was no talking,except for the job at hand. No one on drugs or with a hangover.Violate a safety rule and you were gone. Nothing like seeing a body burning. To make you understand the reason for the rules.

 

[Billy Shafer]

I worked for a company. Where two guys were hurt being stupid.So the company made us strip our trucks of all flammable items.WD40,Rustbuster and the rest of the normal stuff. So they bring in the new safety solvents for us to use. Made a big show of it.One of the guys ask them if they were sure this stuff was nonflammable. Yes it is perfectly safe. So he ask them. Then why does it say on the can. Do not use near spark or flame. The show ended real fast.

 

[Dave O'Brien]

To the original post: After reading your account, You went far above and beyond in keeping that employee on the job. I'm a Union Pipefitter and on the vast majority of the jobs I've been on any single one of the offenses you listed are grounds for immediate termination.
I'm sure I'll draw heat from some of you. Every OSHA regulation, safety rule, policy or procedure has been written in someone's blood.

 

[john in la]

Then we can agree to disagree.
I call it 100% human neglect.
The warning signs were there; they just chose not to take heed to the warning signs; hoping they would get by.

Just like someone that sticks their hand somewhere.
100 times they get it back
But then there is that one time that all he11 breaks loose.

 

[LAA]

The reason that I say it was human error and not neglect is because in the case in question there was zero percent chance that the problem would right itself. Only people who did not understand what was taking place would have proceeded as they did.

 

[Steve in VA]

I always felt compelled to intervene at work if I thought there was a safety issue. All too frequently the push back was "I've done it this way for years and never had a problem". The response I developed was "Well, I guess you're immortal because you haven't died yet".

 

[john in la]

And the reason I call it neglect is I feel they knew fully well what could happen.
But by pressure from higher up they kept chugging along.

A guy slings a piece of pipe with a piece of nylon rope.
100 times it works but that one time the rope breaks someone dies.

A guy reaches across a pto shaft 100 times.
But that one time his coat tale gets caught in the shaft someone dies

They drill many rigs. problems arise. Some we fix and some we feel; well we got by the last 100 times lets try it again.
But that one time it does not work someone dies.

But then again you know a lot more on the subject than I do as I have never been on a oil rig.

 

[Goose]

The only time I ever fired someone on the spot was when I was managing a newspaper.

My press crew was running a section of the newspaper when a part time college student began teasing them and acting like he was going to drop a screwdriver into the press. He screwed up and actually did drop it. After the fact, it took three of us four hours to get the press up and running again.

At the time, I was so mad I went down to the corner coffee shop and drank coffee for a half hour before I went back and fired the kid. At 2pm on a Tuesday afternoon, I paid him off and threw him out.

I'd been after those guys already about safety, but I was concerned with someone getting hurt, not the machines getting damaged.

 

[oldtanker]

(quoted from post at 05:59:01 11/19/16) That would be me. By the time a person is old enough to work they should know if they are accident prone or not and not pursue work in dangerous fields. What OSHA has done has caused tool manufacturers and companies to implement safety equipment and procedures to prevent these idiots from hurting themselves. In the process of doing this has made work place more dangerous for the competent workers and have slowed production raising costs which in part is sending jobs overseas. When you make a tool cumbersome you just make it more dangerous. In the last 40+ years probably 99 out of 100 accidents I've had were a result of safety equipment.

OK, I have a friend, 63 years old who's accident prone. He's been working dangerous jobs most of his life. About 10 years ago he finally had an accident that put him on SS disability. He to this day refuses to accept that he's accident prone! I have people who I didn't pick working for me that were just not smart enough to know they were dangerous too.

Rick

 

[SDE]

Every year we are required to watch a slips, trips, and falls safety video. As I walked back to my work area, from watching it again, I stopped and wondered why we have to watch a video about wiping up spills when one of our smog hogs is always leaking oil on the floor every day.
We had to watch a training video about safe overhead crane operations. We also had to stop using a home made basket, for dipping parts in tanks, because it did not have a designated weight limit. But we can use our homemade racks, which have broken off 1/4" pegs. They have not been certified. I walked past the paint booth and three units were hanging from homemade 1/4" rods that are probably designed to be used by single parts, not completed units. A few pounds versus 40. Live and learn or bleed I guess.

SDE

 

[LAA]

Of course there was pressure from the shore based management to hurry but the senior rig personnel have a duty to resist that pressure and do the right thing, they are protected by US and international maritime law, the OIM on a rig cannot be forced to do anything that he does not agree with and has complete autonomy unless and until he is relieved of command. Pencil neck engineers, geologists and bean counters in town may whine about budgets and schedules and suggest every manner of stupidity to cut costs on operations that they do not understand but within the hierarchy of the company they are powerless to force the onboard management to do anything or to take any punitive action against field personnel. As far as your 1 in 100 analogy is concerned I agree wholeheartedly, anytime someone tells me that they just forgot to follow procedures or use the right tool for the job or wear their PPE "this one time" I ask them if they would fly an airline with a 99% safe landing record.