Germanic 8a adjustment

[John1010c]

Gentlemen,
I have a John Deere 1010c with a gearmatic 8a winch on it. I've rebuilt the winch but am having quite a the time getting it adjusted. I have some questions for y'all. I put new cylinders on both sides of the controller. On the brake side the piston did not have the hole the manual mentions. Is this a problem ? I was told only the clutch one were available but to use it on both sides.
Where and how exactly are you bleeding the system ? Where the line attaches to the swivel on the side of the cover plate ? Do you just crack open the fitting and work the handle back and forth till no bubbles come out ?
Basically what's happening is when I try to use or test the winch at this point with the PTO engaged and I pull back on the control handle the drum barley turns or just tries to turn . The control handle is pretty hard to pull back too.
Any input would be greatly appreciated...

 

[Jim.ME]

Just cracking the fitting open at the swivel and working the handle back and forth may only induce air to the system. Similar to bleeding auto brakes you need to apply and hold pressure on the system before and during the time the fitting is cracked, only releasing pressure on the controller handle after the fitting has been tightened. Then repeat until clear fluid comes out. You may need a helper to get it bled. The brake side of the controller is supposed to have a bleeder screw in that brake operating control cylinder. After bleeding that you could bleed it where the line connects to the brake cylinder on the winch. The hole in the brake controller piston is to allow the brake cylinder pressure to drop quickly when the lever is moved to center, for quick brake application. The clutch controller cylinder has to bleed pressure off as well, but the bleed rate can be slower, so I expect the cylinder will work on either side of the controller, but the brake application may be slower.

If the lever is pulling back hard all the way, when trying to engage the clutch, it indicates to me that it is building pressure in the system and the clutch cylinder should be stroking, or something is assembled/adjusted wrong.

If the clutch surface of the drum is badly worn tapered or grooved there might not be enough contact between the drum and you new lining to get a lot of grip to develop pulling force.

Have you talked with the people at the place you bought the controller cylinders and told you to use the same cylinders on both sides? They might have some insight to your problem.

 

[John1010c]

I will talk to the place where I bought the parts.I didn't realize I had to bleed the liens like that. I'll get the right tools to do so. That bleed screw on the control is not there. I don't remember seeing it before I rebuilt either. I bought new pushrods when I rebuilt it and I think one didn't quite match the original, maybe it was just a little longer. It's been a year since I've messed with this.

Jim, you answered a lot of my questions in the last year and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. Would l be "out-of- line" to ask you if we could talk on the phone sometime about this winch ?

 

[John1010c]

I missed read your advice about bleeding the system. I understand what your saying now about that.

 

[Jim.ME]

I will talk to the place where I bought the parts.I didn't realize I had to bleed the liens like that. I'll get the right tools to do so. That bleed screw on the control is not there. I don't remember seeing it before I rebuilt either. I bought new pushrods when I rebuilt it and I think one didn't quite match the original, maybe it was just a little longer. It's been a year since I've messed with this.

Jim, you answered a lot of my questions in the last year and I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. Would l be "out-of- line" to ask you if we could talk on the phone sometime about this winch ?

I am far from an expert on these, just had one and kept it going between studying how it worked and the manual. I am not going to say you are out of line asking about a phone call, however I don't know that there is anything I can add in a phone call that I can't here. The other thing is keeping the conversation (questions and answers) here makes it so anyone else with a problem can see the info. I don't think threads that have no ending solve anything, we never know if suggestions worked or not. And if I am incorrect with information about something another member might catch the error and correct it. To solve things offline kind of defeats the purpose of the forum. Going "offline" is for personal things, not mechanical problems, in my opinion. Ask your questions here and I'll give you the best answers I can, then anyone needing info on a Gearmatic 8A can see our discussion and maybe help them as well..

 

[John1010c]

Jim I blead the system like you said but didn't really see any bubbles. In fact the only significant amount of fluid that comes out is when I move the handle to the release position. It seems to be air free either position. I re-adjusted my clutches from .010 to .008 and got constant movement when the control handle is pulled back but it has now power. I can hold, by hand a rope and stop it from turning ( the cable is not on yet ). Another thing I've been doing when setting the tolerance is starting at the three spider legs portion of the bands and working outward to try to maintain the desired gap all the way around the bands. This however causes the portion at the spider legs to be wider. Is this causing my slippage ? Should I only adjust at the legs and stop ?

 

[Jim.ME]

While pulling on the control handle, if you crack the clutch line where it goes into the drum shaft, does fluid come out and the handle travel rearward its full stroke?

When the clutch band is in place and the clearance is adjusted to the .008 to .010' at the three legs, how much clearance is there at both ends of the clutch band where they should contact the spider arm? The band may not be a true circle from handling so check clearance at the adjusting screws not all the way around, it may require some wearing in.

How thick is your new clutch lining? Too thin and the clutch cylinder may be running out of stroke.

I would consider pulling the cover off and connecting the clutch line to the cylinder hose and trying to stroke the control handle hooked up that way to see how much the clutch cylinder is stroking. Have you blown air through the fluid passage in the drum shaft to be sure fluid is getting to the clutch cylinder?

It has been a number of years since my crawler with the 8A went away so a lot of this memory may be a bit foggy.

 

[John1010c]

When I crack the clutch line where it goes into the drum shaft and pull the handle all the way back no fluid comes out other than a drip from loosening the line. If I push the handle all the way forward I'll get a surge of fluid.
The bands are all new.
I'll re-adjust the the gap Only at the legs and get back to you. This is the bands adjusted at .008. but all the way around . There is a large gap where they meet the spider arm. I'm sure that will tighten up when I adjust them your way.

 

[Jim.ME]

When I crack the clutch line where it goes into the drum shaft and pull the handle all the way back no fluid comes out other than a drip from loosening the line. If I push the handle all the way forward I'll get a surge of fluid.
The bands are all new.
I'll re-adjust the the gap Only at the legs and get back to you. This is the bands adjusted at .008. but all the way around . There is a large gap where they meet the spider arm. I'm sure that will tighten up when I adjust them your way.

When you pull back on the control handle you should be getting fluid to the clutch. Getting a gush of fluid when you push forward on the handle indicates to me you have the clutch and brake lines reversed at the controller. The "master" cylinder for each function mounted on the opposite end of the controller housing from the direction the control handle moves. Pulling back on the handle works the front master cylinder to apply the clutch. Pushing forward on the handle works the rear master cylinder to release the brake. Try swapping the lines around.

 

[John1010c]

Okay, I made new lines and swapped where they connect to the controller. Now I do get a rush of fluid at the banjo connection when I pull the handle back. I also get a rush of fluid at the brake cylinder connection when I push it forward. I cranked the machine and tried it out but got nothing when the lever was pulled back. When I pushed it forward to the release position the drum started to move and also has no pulling force.

 

[Jim.ME]

Okay, I made new lines and swapped where they connect to the controller. Now I do get a rush of fluid at the banjo connection when I pull the handle back. I also get a rush of fluid at the brake cylinder connection when I push it forward. I cranked the machine and tried it out but got nothing when the lever was pulled back. When I pushed it forward to the release position the drum started to move and also has no pulling force.

If I remember correctly there is a narrow cover plate over the brake band actuating linkage under the brake cylinder to see that the cylinder is working when the lever is pushed forward. Removing the bung plug in the side cover may let you see if the clutch cylinder is moving the cltch band when the lever is pulled back. As I said removing the side cover and temporarily connecting the line direct to the clutch cylinder should let you see how much the whole clutch band is expanding.

The drum may have started moving when you pushed the lever ahead, releasing the brake band. With the brake released the clutch band may be dragging on the drum enough to turn the winch drum, but it would not have any power. This is sounding like your clutch slave cylinder is not working to expand the clutch band.

 

[John1010c]

How do you connect a temporary line to the clutch ? Connect to the nipple or removing it entirely and screw a different fitting in ? If my brake band adjusting screw is a little too loose would that have any merit here ? I think I loosened it earlier to try something else and may have forgotten to put it back to where the manual said to set it.

 

[Jim.ME]

How do you connect a temporary line to the clutch ? Connect to the nipple or removing it entirely and screw a different fitting in ? If my brake band adjusting screw is a little too loose would that have any merit here ? I think I loosened it earlier to try something else and may have forgotten to put it back to where the manual said to set it.

I don't know what you have for fittings between the clutch master cylinder and the Banjo bolt connection in the drum shaft. You can connect to either of the two points I circled on the drawing to feed the cylinder when the side cover is off. You will have to figure out the exact pieces needed for what is on your winch to make the temporary jumper line between the control and clutch cylinder. DO NOT try to turn the drum with the side off and the jumper line in place. This is only to check how much the clutch cylinder is stroking and moving the clutch band.

Do you have the proper hollow capscrew in the banjo connection?

Adjust the brake as per the manual for a starting point. The brake is not keeping the clutch from turning the drum. If installed properly the brake "slips" when the clutch is winding cable on to the drum. It only has to be released hydraulicly to let cable off the drum.

 

[John1010c]

Okay, I see what you're talking about now with testing for clutch movement. Thanks for the illustration. I went ahead and adjusted the brake tensioner per the book just to rule it out. When I retested the winch I first tried pulling rope in and it worked. In fact it this time is the first time it had power ! I had someone working the lever while I held the rope and there was no way I could stop it. That's the good news. The bad new is when I tried to move the handle to full release it also started to spool in the rope. I will put a bypass to the clutch like you suggested but wanted to share this with you first.

I know these messages are getting lengthy but I do feel like we are making progress. I thank you for your time and knowledge.

 

[Jim.ME]

Okay, I see what you're talking about now with testing for clutch movement. Thanks for the illustration. I went ahead and adjusted the brake tensioner per the book just to rule it out. When I retested the winch I first tried pulling rope in and it worked. In fact it this time is the first time it had power ! I had someone working the lever while I held the rope and there was no way I could stop it. That's the good news. The bad new is when I tried to move the handle to full release it also started to spool in the rope. I will put a bypass to the clutch like you suggested but wanted to share this with you first.

I know these messages are getting lengthy but I do feel like we are making progress. I thank you for your time and knowledge.

Winding cable in while the brake is released (lever pushed forward) makes me think the clutch is too tight now. With this latest info I don't think you need to make the bypass line for now. Try backing the clutch adjustment off some (increase the band clearance. It does take so working back and forth between wind-in (clutch) and free spool (brake) to find the balance.

 

[Jim.ME]

What do you have for a Manual? Does it have the parts breakdown? That is where the drawing I posted for you came from.

 

[John1010c]

Yes sir I have that manual. I had the bands set at .008 I'm readjusting them to .010 to widen the space a little.

 

[JOCCO]

Been following this, and your other post. Jim has done a good job helping you. I too worked on them models 8 9 19 119 and 21. Not much I can add 8s could be a little bugger and was a little different than 9 19. Books or manuals used to pop up on ebay. You also have to watch for leaks on the cylinder and swivels. We used to call them problematic! They will act up if they set for a long time too.

 

[John1010c]

Jim has been very attentive and helpful. I'm glad I found someone to help me. I'm confident we're going to get it. And yes it has proven to be "problematic" lol.

 

[JOCCO]

Jim has been very attentive and helpful. I'm glad I found someone to help me. I'm confident we're going to get it. And yes it has proven to be "problematic" lol.

I didn't jump in as I thought he was quite knowledgeable. Been many years since I worked on an 8 believe there was 8a as well. They were on 40/420 dozers. In many years of logging, I have had them torn down to the bare housing along with Eaton/Hercules winches. Parts were getting to be an issue too. When i was young i worked with a guy who could work Majic on them so I learned a lot there.