Germanic 8a adjustment

[JOCCO]

One more thing 1010 some of them had a rod with a tube for the brake it went up through the bottom. The brake would not hold or not for long even on some new bands. Well old fellow said to the outfit your problem is not the bands, I can fix it. They said you're not smart enough. Money was place on the barrel head He took that rod and tube out and cut it off (tube would not let brake fully apply) Told them to try it, Deere 40 crawler 3rd gear winch attached to large tree going forward guy moved the control handle from free spool to brake. It darn near stood crawler straight up. He picked up his bet money, they were wondering what just happened. I was with him and kind of a student and learned a lot on that one! So do check that out if you have brake Appling or slipping.

 

[John1010c]

Readjusted the clutch bands to a wider gap now at .010. When you push the handle to release it is very tight. It could have been the same way at .008 just don't remember. It will not travel the full distance to where it will lock into free spool. This also still causes the drum to winch in. I got someone to operate the lever while I watch the brake mechanism operate because I could hear a little squeaking noise and wanted to see where it was coming from. It appears to be the brake slipping . There is a little smoke or band dust drifting up as well. The brake band linkage seems to have more movement when the lever is pushed forward. I think it only makes that squeaking noise when you push the handle forward but I'll confirm that shortly.

All the clutch bands and brake bands are new.

I remember having to make the two spacers on that rod your talking about. I think I ordered a used rod that came in just a little short. Maybe a 1/8-1/4" shorter than the original. I think I just clipped the end of one of those tubes so the same amount of rod stuck through. This may be useless info....

 

[Jim.ME]

Readjusted the clutch bands to a wider gap now at .010. When you push the handle to release it is very tight. It could have been the same way at .008 just don't remember. It will not travel the full distance to where it will lock into free spool. This also still causes the drum to winch in. I got someone to operate the lever while I watch the brake mechanism operate because I could hear a little squeaking noise and wanted to see where it was coming from. It appears to be the brake slipping . There is a little smoke or band dust drifting up as well. The brake band linkage seems to have more movement when the lever is pushed forward. I think it only makes that squeaking noise when you push the handle forward but I'll confirm that shortly.

All the clutch bands and brake bands are new.

I remember having to make the two spacers on that rod your talking about. I think I ordered a used rod that came in just a little short. Maybe a 1/8-1/4" shorter than the original. I think I just clipped the end of one of those tubes so the same amount of rod stuck through. This may be useless info....

Make sure pressure from the master cylinder to the clutch slave cylinder is releasing. With the controller in neutral crack the clutch line and see how much fluid comes out. It shouldn't be more than a dribble, any pressure and the master cylinder may not be releasing fully.

If the clutch cylinder is releasing it sounds like you are down to fine tuning the adjustments. Back the brake off until the control lever will lock forward. You need that for free spooling to pull cable off the drum.

Your new clutch lining may be dragging in spots. You may have to increase the clearance more the wear the lining in to fit the drum. I am thinking lining drag is most of your current issue.

When you push the controller lever forward it should only send fluid out the rear master cylinder to the brake cylinder. If it is sending fluid to the clutch cylinder, when the controller is pushed forward to release the brake, something is wrong.

 

[JOCCO]

Make sure pressure from the master cylinder to the clutch slave cylinder is releasing. With the controller in neutral crack the clutch line and see how much fluid comes out. It shouldn't be more than a dribble, any pressure and the master cylinder may not be releasing fully.

If the clutch cylinder is releasing it sounds like you are down to fine tuning the adjustments. Back the brake off until the control lever will lock forward. You need that for free spooling to pull cable off the drum.

Your new clutch lining may be dragging in spots. You may have to increase the clearance more the wear the lining in to fit the drum. I am thinking lining drag is most of your current issue.

When you push the controller lever forward it should only send fluid out the rear master cylinder to the brake cylinder. If it is sending fluid to the clutch cylinder, when the controller is pushed forward to release the brake, something is wrong.

Jim could he have a messed up control or master cylinder? I have seen it. Ours all worked back was clutch center was brake on forward released brake.

 

[Jim.ME]

Jim could he have a messed up control or master cylinder? I have seen it. Ours all worked back was clutch center was brake on forward released brake.

Pull to winch in, center hold, push forward to release the brake, locked forward for free spool cable. I think he has it right now. He had it backwards at one point. Apparently, where he got his parts, they only supply the master cylinder for the clutch control and told him to use it for both clutch and brake. It is lacking the center hole in the piston, of the original one, that the push rod covered when releasing the brake. That hole allowed for a rapid dump of the fluid which applied the brake quickly when the control handle was returned to center. If the travel isn't correct so that both master cylinders are clear of the control linkage when centered, it could be a problem.

I understood he did not have the drum turned. If the surfaces are worn tapered and/or uneven he may have to play with it, adjust it, slip it to wear the frictions, adjust again, slip, the old rinse and repeat to seat the frictions before it works right.

 

[JOCCO]

Pull to winch in, center hold, push forward to release the brake, locked forward for free spool cable. I think he has it right now. He had it backwards at one point. Apparently, where he got his parts, they only supply the master cylinder for the clutch control and told him to use it for both clutch and brake. It is lacking the center hole in the piston, of the original one, that the push rod covered when releasing the brake. That hole allowed for a rapid dump of the fluid which applied the brake quickly when the control handle was returned to center. If the travel isn't correct so that both master cylinders are clear of the control linkage when centered, it could be a problem.

I understood he did not have the drum turned. If the surfaces are worn tapered and/or uneven he may have to play with it, adjust it, slip it to wear the frictions, adjust again, slip, the old rinse and repeat to seat the frictions before it works right.

Yes sir as I told him you are right on the money! Drum out or round or even bearing problem can cause headaches. Those control units are scare now and very expensive last I knew. Also hard to tell what someone else did to it. One more thing I have seen some band issues over the years. Meaning new ones were not right.

 

[JOCCO]

Also Jim those controls master cylinder had various tiny holes in them. I have seen them plugged.

 

[Jim.ME]

Also Jim those controls master cylinder had various tiny holes in them. I have seen them plugged.

He put new master cylinders on both sides of the controller. All we can do is suggest things to check and let him be the hands and eyes. He is getting closer. They are a bit of a pain to get right.

 

[John1010c]

I have regretted not getting the drum turned, it has haunted me ever since I started reassemble. It was a little pitted more on one side but really not that bad. I used a drum type sander on a drill and smooth it out some. The outside where the brake band touches looked great. I replaced all the bearings with new ones.
I'll start again tomorrow morning where we left off today. I guess I'll re-gap the clutch bands to.012 and see what happens.

 

[Jim.ME]

I have regretted not getting the drum turned, it has haunted me ever since I started reassemble. It was a little pitted more on one side but really not that bad. I used a drum type sander on a drill and smooth it out some. The outside where the brake band touches looked great. I replaced all the bearings with new ones.
I'll start again tomorrow morning where we left off today. I guess I'll re-gap the clutch bands to.012 and see what happens.

"Sweep" the band with a feeler gauge.005 to .008 to be sure you have clearance the full width of the band and all the way around it. drums often wear tapered across them, so the outside is slightly larger diameter than the inside.

 

[JOCCO]

John also check where the bands mounts. The pin and connections. I had a #9 that was a major issue with. Just food for thought. Also any pins or rods in the cylinders your case clutch side. Yes seen issues there too.

 

[JOCCO]

John what was the status of this winch? working and you went in for repair? Not working and being restored? Why I am asking is to find out and overcome what a previous owner may have done. I haven't followed all the threads on this in detail. Also a parts manual will help you eliminate any missing parts.

 

[John1010c]

I don't think it was working. I bought it off of eBay but we did speak on the phone. I guess he was going to install it one his machine at some point. I bought it to restore and put on mine. I pretty much went back with all new stuff. I've tried to post pictures here but I don't think they are going through. I have an operator and parts book. I don't remember missing anything.

 

[John1010c]

"Sweep" the band with a feeler gauge.005 to .008 to be sure you have clearance the full width of the band and all the way around it. drums often wear tapered across them, so the outside is slightly larger diameter than the inside.

Jim I can get the clearance set at each spider arm but can't sweep very far left or right because it binds . I have noticed at a few spots it seems to get tighter the further I push it in, like you mentioned it being tapered.

 

[Jim.ME]

Jim I can get the clearance set at each spider arm but can't sweep very far left or right because it binds . I have noticed at a few spots it seems to get tighter the further I push it in, like you mentioned it being tapered.

Check that the clutch slave cylinder is fully retracting, and the rod is unloaded (not pushing out on the clutch band) when the control handle is centered. Did you have to stretch the band a bit to get it over the spider, or did you have to compress it to get it inside the drum? Hopefully you had to stretch it a bit to install it as the band is the retract method, there are no return springs to pull it away from the drum. If you had to compress it, the relaxed diameter of the band itself may be causing some of the drag by not shrinking away from the drum.

Further, like putting new brake shoes in a worn brake drum, until the two surfaces match brake shoes may drag and yet not stop/hold properly. You may have to back the adjustments off the clutch band to where it doesn't drag when the handle is pushed forward to release the brake band, then hook it to a heavy load and wear it in to match the taper of the drum surface. It could take many adjustments to get it right.

JOCCO may have a better answer.

 

[Jim.ME]

I don't think it was working. I bought it off of eBay but we did speak on the phone. I guess he was going to install it one his machine at some point. I bought it to restore and put on mine. I pretty much went back with all new stuff. I've tried to post pictures here but I don't think they are going through. I have an operator and parts book. I don't remember missing anything.

If you are using a phone to take pictures, they may be too large and need to be reduced before uploading.

To attach pictures, I use the "Attach files" button in the text box. Click on it, it opens my device and from that I can find the image I want, click Open and it brings a copy to the text box. Then select insert as a thumbnail or full size to put the image in the post.

 

[JOCCO]

Once again Jim is right on far as the clutch cylinder. Yes I see one with rust in it (it was like a half one-sided cylinder) so it could not retract but it still worked. (To a point) Why I asked it status or history is to rule out stuff like what some one else did. I don't envy you resurrecting one of them from the dead.

 

[JOCCO]

John, I want to warn you of a few things. When you get this back together be very careful, if you see the cable surging in and out in any way. Something is wrong! Twice in my life I have seen the clutch jammed up and there was no stopping it! It pulled the cable, chokers and all into the drum and had to be shut down. Broken pieces and close to a worker fatality, I was quite young it was a #19. Second was a #9 When I see it, I just let her go and shut the machine down. I have heard of a few others and helped repair some that did this. Next be careful winching sideways (or other odd direction) those winches can flip a machine over. Last not sure how your machine is set up (assuming 1010 crawler) but have a plan to cut power to winch rather foot clutch or pto lever if something goes off the deep end. Just passing on some of my life lessons.

 

[John1010c]

Please pass this kind of stuff to me ! I've been around tractors all my 50 years of life but this is my first crawler. Your never too old to learn. I'm sorry gentlemen for my tardiness this morning in our conversation. I had some honeydews to do. I'm going to take the side cover back off and try to get some pictures uploaded.

 

[John1010c]

Okay going back to what was ask earlier, I just cracked open the fitting going into the clutch. I don't have any spiting of fluid but it is a steady drip. Even with the fitting completely removed. I figure it the residual fluid still left in line.