(800) 853-2651
SHOP NOW

Get Me The Gun!

Yesterday's Tractor Forums
A

Allan in NE

Well-known Member
I'm gonna put this SOB out of it's misery! :>(

When it runs right, it's the perfect loader tractor. Instant start and purrs like a kitten. But, I just cannot keep the miss out of that engine.

Less than three hours total running time on a new engine. Runs about 10 or 15 minutes and then goes to missing. Clean or replace the plugs and the cycle starts all over again.

Just acts like the plugs stop working for no apparent reason.

New coil, solid state ignition, new wires, rotor and cap.

Just don't think I was cut out for gas tractors. Somebody please bring me a diesel and take this Gawd-forsaken thing away. :>(

Allan

SOB2.JPG
 
I assume compression is good on all cylinders. If not, would just keep extra plugs on hand for the weak cylinder until you can get around to fixing it. The other thing that comes to mind as a gas burner is if it is overfueling after it is completely warmed up.
 
Oh yeah, it's a brand new engine.

I think you're right. It's over fueling to beat the band.

Black smoke just rolls out of 'er at mid range rpms. Idles good and plenty of wide open power when it isn't missing.

Engine is a 301 out of an 806 and the plugs are carbon fouling is the only thing I can figure.

'Spose it's time for a carburetor. :>(

Allan
 
My JD 520 has that problem with one of the cylinders. Going up a heat range on the plug helped extend the time between cleanings a bit. (although it is a well worn engine not a fresh rebuild).
 
You didn't by chance buy Autolite spark plugs from Walmart, did you?

I had basically the same experience on an '89 Chevy pickup with Autolite plugs I'd bought from Walmart. I solved my problem with AC plugs from NAPA.

Some one said Autolite plugs from NAPA or any other source are OK, just the ones from Walmart act up.

Walmart used to sell AC and Champion plugs along with Autolite, now all they sell is Autolite. I suspect Walmart put price demands on AC and Champion to where those two brands told Walmart to get lost, then Autolite compromised quality to meed Walmart's demands.
 
No Sir,

Wouldn't buy a toilet stopper from Wal-Mart.

Have had Champion D-18, D-21 and the Autolite what? 386 I think? All from the local parts house. Not to say that they aren't "low-quality" also tho.

The darned thing didn't run this bad when it was oil fouling before the rebuild.

Haven't tried the ACs yet. Think I'm gonna call Kim's parts man in the morning and order a carb too. I haven't liked that thing from the start. It just shouldn't blow soot like that all the darned time.

Have overhauled it so many times the threads are wearin' off the screws. :>(

Allan
 
Oh yeah,

I'm just tired of continually fixin' the old pooper.

Deisels, ya don't have to mess with. :>)

Allan
 
Allen, have you checked the valve clearance? I am wondering if it is getting warm and then a valve is not closing all the way. Just something to check before tearing into it too far.

Hurst
 
What plugs are you running?

Our 544 would do that crud all the time and I went up a heat range and no more problems. The big problem is using the tractor for short periods of time and it never really gets warmed up enough to burn the crud off the plugs...
 
Is it possible that someone drilled out the holes in the main metering stem? I've rebuilt many an M carb that was butchered in this way. Some folks seem to think that is how you get more power. Also, I think you can replace the electric fuel shut-off solenoid with an adjustable set-up similar to what an M or a 560 would have.
 
you probably already checked this but:

is it always the same plug or all the plugs??

that would narrow it down to a cylinder or a component
 
I have told this story before on here but will gladly tell it again. Had the same prob with my 706 gasser a few years back. I was absalutly convinced it was spark related, so narrowed it down to plugs as I had replaced all other elec. parts but only cleaned and not replaced plugs as they were only 6 months old having been new at time of overhaul. Was telling problem to young mecanic at case shop and he was a recent grad from local voeh-tech. He said they had a see through model off a cylinder in which they could adjust compression and watch it spark. Results showed all spark plugs will fail after given enough compression but the champion will always be the first to fail. In one of your posts you stated black smoke rolls out at mid rpms so I suspect yours is a fuel prob but if you should determine it is a spark prob the first thing to do is throw out the champ plugs. Incidently in their test the NGK was the plug that sparked under highest compression. Hope this helps. The Flying Belgian
 
I enjoy hearing from a man that's up for a challenge. A 6 cylinder
gas burner and that galvinized grinder I see in the background.You
won't need much heat in the shop this winter. Those two will have
your ears smokin till spring.
 
Allan, carb, carb , carb. You are running to rich. Have had the same problems with old M's. Try leaning your mixture up a tad and see if it helps.
 
No reason that gasser shouldn't run good . (even if it is red) I have a green one,4020,and it has been GREAT !
What kinda carb. do those IHC run ? My JD had a Marvel Schebler aluminum one and it belched black at midrange and coming off idle. These were know to give troubles so I got a Zenith cast iron carb. and it has been alot better.
Go with the hotter plugs autolite 388 and I am also wondering if the head was rebuilt if they have the guides too tight ? but since it blows black smoke carb. sounds like it needs attention or replaced with another type. I'm still running on points and cond. same ones I put in around 1991 ? and 600 hrs. ago.
 
We had the same problem with our old Oliver 70 and 830 Case, we had valve jobs done at a local shop and the guy Screwed up on all 3 heads, when he did the SEATS ,he didn't use or get the Stem streight,and didn't do the seats right,we took apart found the Guides were junk, had to have them done all over again.
 
(quoted from post at 21:54:00 12/02/07) Oh yeah, it's a brand new engine.

I think you're right. It's over fueling to beat the band.

Black smoke just rolls out of 'er at mid range rpms. Idles good and plenty of wide open power when it isn't missing.

Engine is a 301 out of an 806 and the plugs are carbon fouling is the only thing I can figure.

'Spose it's time for a carburetor. :>(

Allan
Click to expand...

I've never worked on a petrol powered tractor (apart from my 4 Wheelhorses!), but lots of carburetted cars so it sounds like very rich mixture to me.
Is the air filter OK? Is there any blockage along the inlet tracts - rags, mouse nests, caps!?
If air filter clean & no blockages then it's probably a float stuck allowing the carb to flood. Could be a punctured float if its a hollow brass one - easy to cure with a blob of solder, once you've found the leak by immersing the float in hot water & see the stream of bubbles.
 
Is it the same plugs over and over Allen? My Oliver 1600 loader tractor was doing that on 5 and 6. I got some adapters at the auto parts store,were supposed to be some kind of non fowlers. They are about an inch and a half long,screw in in place of the plug,then the plug threads in to them. They have quite a small hole at the end where they set down in the head.I don't quite understand how they work,get a hotter ignition at the end of the plug without the fuel buildup or something. THEY WORK. I couldn't get 4 or 5 days out of plugs before on those two cylinders. I think they've been in there 6 years or more now and they haven't foweled.
 
The old 71 chevy truck I just got was missing bad. It had fairly new plugs in it, but every time I would clean them it would run fine for about 10 min and then miss again. A new set of plugs cured it!
 
Allen,
Here is an old method that is interesting if wierd.
Pull the plug wire part way off and make a 1/8 to 3/16" gap between the connector and the plug tip. A bit of black tape can make it stay there. If it now fores well, it might get you through till the carb comes. Jim
 
All cylinders except two. Black fouled and obviously shorting across to ground.

Just too darned rich. Carb isn't flooding either; just pumping a lot of fuel.

Allan
 
I dunno,

It just runs like a she-dog in heat.

Used it to do chores yeasterday and it ran just fine. Started it up today, let it sit there and warm up for a few minutes.

Went to move it and belched out a cloud of black smoke and went to missing on one cylinder. It'll be missing again in the morning and if I don't stop and clean the plugs it will start missing on more and more cylinders until it will hardly pull itself.

Comon'. Ya gotta have a good diesel fer me don't ya? :>)

Allan
 
Check your intake manifold, may have to take it off and have it plained, if sucking air it will cause 2 cylinders to run lean so you adjust the carb to try and compensate and end up with the other cylinders running rich!! Have seen this several times but was on the 4cylinders, not that it cant happen to 6cyls too!!
 
Just curious---Does that carb have a low-speed adjustment, and a high-speed adjustment? If so, sounds like the high-speed jet needs to be adjusted properly. Too rich would cause the black smoke- - -
 
Put in a hotter plug and check to see that it is timed correctly. Also make sure that the carb is clean, clean, clean also check compression.
Walt
 
This is true, but when something goes wrong with a diesel, something goes REALLY wrong, and it's almost always expensive. All told, I'd rather operate a diesel, but give me the gassers if they need fixin'.
 
It one of those "Marvel Schrebler" (?) carbs.

Air bleed on the idle and absolutly no adjustment at all on the high side.

Allan
 
Allan
Make sure that ignition system is getting a full 12 volts along with plenty of [AMPS]. I have had some situations like this where there was resistance in the power supply wire going to the ignition system. [ hot ignition switch ] or a bad crimp on a terminal.
Good luck with it
JIM WJ
 
Allan, Mike M. was mentioning the carb on a 4020. Well, my old 105 JD combine has a 4020 gas engine and I don't remember if it has the MS carb or the Zenith, but it would idle rich no matter what I did to it, and then a JD mechanic told me it was probably sucking fuel from around the internal accelerator pump vacuum piston. There was no fix other than replace the carb, since the piston is a machine fit with no seals, so I plugged the vacuum hole that goes to that piston and it idled like a charm for ever after. The downfall was that I had to open the throttle slowly to get it to rev up. Obviously this will only work for a combine because it isn't being throttled up and down like a tractor. This carb (Marvel Schebler maybe?) was on the 1850 oliver gas also, but I don't know if IH used it or not. Jim
 
Allan: I've had a bit of experience with explosives.

Bear in mind you should also have known better, After 1958, IH R&D was going into diesel. I could never understand why they didn't just use the pre 1958 4 cylinder gassers and tell the buying public everything over 50 hp would be diesel only.
 
Yeah, I know.

But this same engine design was used in millions of tractors, trucks, pickups and panel trucks.

Damned thing "ought" to run!

However, I'm with you. Tractors just shouldn't ever have a gas engine. For sure. Takes away their thunder. :>)

Allan
 
Another question or two: Is the float level properly adjusted? Is the float free to move---not stuck or binding? Could there be an air leak in the float so that it doesn't "float" properly? Maybe the needle-and-seat are not holding- - try replacing.
 
Allan: The trucks, pickups and panels worked great, I know, I was running IH 6 cylinder trucks and pickups in those days. My only disappointment ever with an IH tractor was the 504 gasser, exactly 2/3 of your engine.

When I bought the 504, it came with farmland I was buying, and at the time, it was away having it's first engine rebuild, at IH dealer, and at 1,500 hours since new. The vendor wanted to operate the 504 a few days when it came back, wanted to be satisfied he got value for money. We hitched him up to my NH 460 haybine. After 3 days, he said, "Don't keep that 504 any longer than necessary, I never did like the tractor and they haven't made it any better." I decided I best trade that 504 on my new 1066 rather than my old 300. IH dealer was happy, he allowed me $3,000. more than our 300 deal. He got the tractor with 3 point hitch and I kept the usable horsepower.

Just to be sure I was doing this right, I took the 300 and 504 to a field along with 3x16 trailer plow. The 504, fresh off a rebuild after about 25 minutes in 2nd gear started missing, as if the plugs, points, etc. were breaking down. I plowed the rest of the day with 300, mostly low in 3rd gear, and ocasionally letting the TA lever foreward. I thought to myself, this old 35 hp 300 is 2,000 hours into it's 3rd set of pistons and sleeves, and it's doing better than a new rebuilt 45 hp 504. I guess I best heed the advice given. Both tractor had 13.6x38 at that time. So much for post 1958 IH gassers, they were clearly truck engines.
 
Allan: I well remember the first time my dad and I were at the IH dealer and he had in his first new 460 gasser. We each took it for a drive, there was a hill at the back of his lot, in 4th the 460 lost more rpm's than our old 300 would have.

On the way home we were discussing the 460, dad called it a locomotive, I said, "yes with a Volkswagon engine." Gutless wonders, were those post 58 IH gassers.
 
Autolite 386 plugs are a resistor plug per the Autolite site. Try 3116 Autolite"s. They are non-resistor which is what you should have on a tractor.
 
For sure a carb problem, but do yourself a favor and get rid of those Champions. Never been good in anything we run. If you use it for short periods, run a hotter plug even if it is a new engine. Espescially in the winter time.

We run AC Delco in our 165 Massey and 1600 Oliver. Not too many problems, although the 165 is starting to foul them more as it is starting to burn oil.

Donovan from Wisconsin
 
Thinking about it sounds like one of the valves is adjusted a little too tight and once it worms up isn't closing 100%.I have found on gas tractors to have the valves a little loose works the best
 
Boy, I just don't think so. Pretty sure it is a plug carboning problem.

It's not a hot/cold thing in any way. Runs just fine cold or hot until those silly plugs get all carboned up. Replace or clean and it cures it.........for awhile. :>(

Allan
 
Run the valves again. Sounds like they may be a little tight.

Check to be sure that the throttle shaft is not worn. Sometimes people tend to open the jets a little bit to try to compensate for it sucking air through the throttle shaft.

Another thing you might check, since you say it was just rebuilt, is to make sure that the coil hasn't been wired backwards.
 
Just don't follow you guy's reasoning on the valves. Darned thing just runs like a new watch when it's right. Hot or cold.

Day before yesterday, I ran it off and on most of the day doing chores and odd jobs; never missed a beat all the time I was using it.

I dunno. I still think the root of it all is that junk carburetor. It just should not be puffin' that black smoke at mid throttle. Doesn't that just 'scream' that it's getting way too much fuel?

There is no high side adjustment on it either. :>(

Allan
 
Allan, I dunno much about gas engines. Only thing i know is that the 263 on the old combine here doesn't smoke like that and it burns a bunch of oil too. I wonder if that old Marvel is over jetted? If it's the same carb as this one has there's only an idle mixture screw and nothing else.
I can't begin to tell you what's in it for plugs or what size jet for that matter but I know it runs like a top. If I had to have a gas engine, that one would be high on my list of picks... Good starter and a good runner. She is hard on gas, but I know it's not going out the pipe like yours. Hope you figure it out.

Rod
 
I was wondering what the valves had to do with it also. If they were tight enough to hang open, there would soon be a burnt valve.

You said the plugs are black and it spits black smoke when it runs bad so that indicates a rich mixture.
 
Float in carb hanging up or needle sticking would sure do all this. Black smoke tells you its too rich and too rich fouls plugs. Hard to tell from here. Little too far.
 
Hey Allen
Before you shoot that thing I have a suggestion for you. Take a compression test, it will tell you if the engine has all the components installed and adjusted correctly. If compression is good ,then you look at the ignition system. It sounds like something is making the plugs start missing, so the should be o.k. you said it runs good when you clean them, are you sure the are the correct type? Gap them a bit wider try .040. You electronic ignition should bride the gap with no problem.Another questioni is it the same plug or all of them? Good Look.
Guido.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Yesterday's Tractor Forums
Buy Tractor Parts Here Buy Tractor Manuals Here

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Copyright © 1997-2025 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters
Website Accessibility Policy

Back
Top