Harry vs. Henry

[Dirty Harry]

As a newbie, I enjoyed driving my first TE20. Used a rough TO35 years ago. I always wanted an original 8N. I read some history of the late Harry Ferguson. Seems like quite a guy. I know of the famous "handshake agreement". How did things go sour? Is there some animocity or rivalry between the Ferguzoids and the N-heads? It looks like Fergy was stronger under the hood. The tiny flathead and V8/6 cylinder conversions were interesting. Just after some input here. Thinking of keeping one of my Fergys instead of selling both for M-M parts.

Ethan

 

[Mark from the Fort]

In a nutshell, Henry Sr. gave the control of the tractor line to his son........at some point the son decided to remove the "Ferguson System" endorsement on each Ford tractor.........
This ticked ol' Irish Harry off...........................and the rest is history.

 

[Jeff-oh]

A little more. Ford's son Edsel, president of Ford Motor Company, died of cancer in May 1943.

In ill health, Ford ceded the presidency to his grandson Henry Ford II in September 1945 and went into retirement. He died 4-7-1947 of a cerebral hemorrhage at age 83 in Fair Lane, his Dearborn estate, and he is buried in the Ford Cemetery in Detroit.

HF II concluded that it cost more to produce a 9N/2N than the selling price to Harry Ferguson. A Steep Price increase was anounced. HF did not take it well. The agreement was disolved.

In side by side comparrisons the TO-20/-30 is a little better on HP than the Ford 9N & 8N. Though position control was not available un the the TO-35. a plus for the Fords.

No animocity between collectors I know of other than the standard brand loyality fun jibs. The tractors are cousins and very similar.

As for the guy, he was typical of the sucessiful busineesmen of the era. A tyrant... His way and his way only. this led to several conflicts with Ford and Then Massey Pres. JS Duncan.

You are right an interesting man.

 

[phil(va)]

Harry was more than a tractor man. He was an inventor and entrepenour and dabbled in airplane development and was a partner with David Brown, the man who created the Aston Martin DB4 of James Bond fame. DB = David Brown. Harry had a partnership with the Sherman Brothers to sell the implements from the Ford dealerships. Ford had all the brick and mortar to pay for. Harry just had to count his money. Henry II was probably right, but he didn't drop Harry gracefully, and Harry won the suit.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Just a note to say Harry Ferguson was a Scot as I am not Irish.

 

[Anonymous-0]

No animosity, but yet when you get to the 35 and 135 they do real work in the field and farm that the 9/2/8N tried to do and failed from being too light and underpowered. Like sending a boy to do a man's job, those N models. I tried to do work with an 8N, mostly snow moving and a little mowing and the 135 did it much better though my 4020 does it even better.

Gerald J.

 

[Crem]

Gerald, I agree with you that the 135 is a much better tractor than the 8N, but for mowing a small acreage or doing the landscape work and small jobs, I will take my TO-20 any day over my MF 165 diesel. The 20 is so easy to get on, start, shift on the go and to hook up implements that there is no comparison. While the hi-lo range gives more speeds and especially slow speeds it is just not designed to shift easily and a pain to put in neutral every time you start it. The brake lock is another thing. I lock the brake every time I get off the tractor and on the TO-20 I can lock both brakes with one step of the petal. By simply holding the locking pawl with the front of my shoe and stepping down on the brake pedal, both wheels are locked. To unlock the brakes, just another step on the brake pedal and it is unlocked. Why couldn't they have done something like that rather than that lock with the spring. Maybe I am in too much of a hurry. ) Now If I want to move a car body without wheels or pick up the back chassis of a TO-20 with the hydraulics, I grab the MF 165. That being said, I guess that I wouldn't mind also having a To-35

 

[Anonymous-0]

I think the Goldfinger car was a DB5. There is a picture of one on a calender at work. Dave

 

[Anonymous-0]

there are many good books on Harry/Henry. Harry had a lot of adventures, most ended badly.
Ford staff designed the 9n, not Harry. The te 20 was a virtual copy of the 9n.(using blueprints) The 20 had less power than the 8n9n. The to-35 was NOT harrys invention, it was MHs. The 35 remains a superior machine worldwide.
The ferg is just as good as the 9n. But my affections will always be on the hero, Mr Ford.
He did not fail. He was not a copycat. He got er done. He was a true patriot.

 

[Bob (Aust)]

From Wikipedia:

[i:939c0f13ca]"Henry George ("Harry") Ferguson (November 4, 1884 - October 25, 1960) was an Irish engineer and inventor who is noted for his role in the development of the modern agricultural tractor, becoming the first Irishman to build and fly his own aeroplane, and for developing the first four-wheel drive Formula One car, the Ferguson P99. Today his name lives on in the name of the Massey Ferguson company."
[/i:939c0f13ca]

[b:939c0f13ca]Harry Ferguson on Wikipedia[/b:939c0f13ca]

Few realise that the Ferguson Drive System, first used in the Ferguson P99 race car, became the constant four wheel drive system first used commercially in the Range Rover and Land Rover and now incorporated into many current 4WD off road and highway cars.

James Bond's car first was indeed a DB5, released in 1963 to compete with the Jaguar E Type/XKE. The Jag E Type was 5 MPH faster and one third the price! In the James Bond movie "The Living Daylights", Bond drove an Aston Martin V8 Volante.

From 1995 to 2006, Aston Martin was owned by Ford, who also owned Jaguar.

 

[phil(va)]

My mistake, DB-5, thanks.

 

[Mr. Bob]

Personally, I like the Fords and Fergies/Massey Fergies both about the same. I'd choose them over any other make within their size range. My next choice after them would be the AC's. My top choices in tractors is the MF 65 low profile, the Ford 860/861, and the AC d15 or D17.
Mr. Bob

 

[Jeff-oh]

A little bit more information.

Ford owned the production side of the partnership. Ferguson owned the distribution side.

Ford produced the tractors and sold them exclusively and directly to Ferguson. Ferguson inturn set up the dealership network and sold the tractors to regional distributorships who sold them to dealers who sold them to individual farmers. The brick and morter sales buildings were owned by the independant dealers.

To be more lucrative, Ferguson and the Shermans developed, manufactured and sold all the implements with nothing going to Ford, that I know of...

Kind like how Bill Gates and Steve Ballman struck a deal with IBM....

 

[Richard L]

However without Harry's hydraulics the Ford would never had made it. Richard

 

[Anonymous-0]

I am by no means a farmer. Originally from detroit i have been to fairlane several times. Henry and Harry were both very interesting and hard working men. I have owned a 1947 2N and currently i own a 1955 TO35. For what i do they both served me well. The Ferguson is obviously the superior tractor. I love them both. Sold the 2N 1 1/2 years ago for $2100.

No animosity here. John

 

[Anonymous-0]

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p143/John_Mason/Stuck3.jpg

 

[mhmalcolm]

"The Big Book of Massey Tractors" by Robert N. Pripps has a very detailed story of the relationship between Henry Ford and Harry Ferguson. I would highly recommend reading it to get the nitty gritty details. I have read many books about their dealings with each other over the past 30 years, and this one is the best. It also has a detailed story about "the coin flip" between Harry Ferguson and the president of Massey Harris, James Duncan, that determined the final deal merging Ferguson with Massey Harris to create Massey-Harris-Ferguson, later shortened to Massey Ferguson.

 

[Jeff-oh]

A little more information.

It is true the the Ford Mo. Co. engineering staff did the detail design, production development and manuf. tooling. It was to Ferguson's Patents, and basic lay out. True Ferguson did not push the pencils but neither did Ford on this tractor or any of his cars...

True, Ferguson used the 9N blueprints and even production tooling for the basis of the TO-20. But calling him a copycat? He was a 50% owner in the partnership.

If you look at the Nebraska Tractor Tests it clearly shows the Ferguson OHV engine had about a 15% edge over the comparable Ford product.

Test Tractor drawbar HP
339 Fd/Fg 9N 17HP
385 Ford 8N 17HP - development test???
392 Ferg TO20 20HP

393 Ford 8N 21HP
443 Ford 8N 21HP - retest
466 Ferg TO30 24HP
494 Ford NAA 25HP

560 Ford 640 28HP
561 Ford 660 28HP
564 Ferg TO35 30HP

Though if you look at time frame of sales. Then the TO-20 would place with the 8N and the TO-30 with the NAA. And thus Ford had a slight edge. The TO-35 and the Ford 600 series were competitors.

The driving force behind the TO-35 was Herman Klemm. Klemm worked for Harry Ferguson inc. and was Harry's director of Engineering in Detroit. In late 1953 Ferguson merged with Massy-Harris and the new company became Massey-Harris-Ferguson. Mr. Klemm became head of engineering for the new company and the engineering staff consolidated around Harry Ferguson's old staff in Detroit. The TO-35 design certainly did not come out of the M-H engineering staff. They were busy with the MH333, MH444, and MH555's.

There was a business direction planning meeting in early 1954 in San Antonio. At this meeting Klemm Pushed his TO-35 project. Harry Ferguson was not a supporter of the TO-35 he was pushing his TO-60 project. By late spring a marginalized and unhappy Harry sold off his shares of MHF and was out of the tractor business as an individual.

Even though Harry did not support the TO-35. It was his company's Head of engineering and his company's engineering staff that created this project. Thus, the TO-35 rightly belongs in Harry Ferguson's family of products and included as Harry's inventions. Just as the 9N and all the Ford line of tractors belong to Ford. Even though Ford never worked on any of then and all of them except the 9N were designed and produced after Henry Ford's Death.

Now what became of Harry's TO-60 project? It became the basis for the MF-65.

Actually if you think about it. The title of this thread is all wrong. It was never Harry vs. Henry it was Harry and Henry. Henry Ford was a very honoral man. He honored his word and handshake agreement. It was his grandson who broke that promise.

 

[Anonymous-0]

There are several good books on this topic, and the court records of 1952. Since this is always inflamatory, i will let the books do the work, not me. However, I have spoken with some original 9n engineers and I will keep that confidential for now. I have original memos from the HF/MHF companies. the end.

 

[Bill(Wis)]

When you make a hansdhake agreement with someone that agreement ends with the death of either participant. My handshake agreements will not be binding on my grandson. Anyway, the '48 8N was a "different" tractor with a "different" hydraulic system anyway and Ford proved to the court's satisfaction that the three point hitch system was of such significant importance to agriculture that it should not be vested in one man or company.

 

[MHMalcom]

Hey ron8N, you can't tease us like that and then just clam up! Just kidding. We all wish we had the inside dope you've got. I, for one, am jealous.

 

[Anonymous-0]

I have a bunch of Alleged facts, from people who were there. I do not want to start any arguments.
I do not repeat words said to me in private, by anyone. I recomend the available books and articles, even tho I will disagree with some of it.

 

[tractorfix]

No animosity here. I have 2 Fergy's and 3 N's and a B3030 Kubota for more serious stuff. They're all great machines. And I don't think its fair to compare MF35 and 135 to N's. A Super Dexta or Ford 2000/3000 are much better comparisons to the 35/135 and stack up quite well.

 

[Bspauld]

I have seen the first Ferguson,it was a 1937 I think,or close to that year anyway and the plaque beside it said Harry designed it,not Henry