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Heating a shop

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Larry Hardesty

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While I am at it, I might as well ask about heat for my pole building. I do not have natural gas or propane. I live out in the country with an all electric house. Gas line is quarter mile away. There are covenants against propane tanks (live in a subdivision with 4 others with each of us having 5-12 acreas).

Any recommendations as to electric to heat the shop (or part of it). I do not need t-shirt temperature, but something to take the chill off. I may do some partitioning with drop down dividers (plastic?) heat just the 32x40 part, which is still considerable. Anyone use overhead infared electric heaters with any success?

Gets a little cool in January in central Nebraska. Wished I could save some of the August heat until then!

Thanks

Larry H.
 
Pretty obvious you don't have the same electric co-op that I do. Electric heat would not enter your mind. I currently warm up my 2 shop buildings with oil heat. I've installed an old oil forced hot air furnace in each building. I'm in northern central Pennsylvania so it does get chilly. I maintain the fabricating shop at about 40 when I'm not working in there and the plasma shop I warm up when I plan on working in there. Both have R-19 insulation in the ceiling and walls. The oil provides fast warm up and I don't need contracts etc. I heated the plasma shop last winter out of a 15 gallon drum and used off-road diesel. Heated space in the fab shop is about 1,500 sq.ft. and the plasma shop is about 1,000 sq.ft. Bottom line cost for electric for me is $.17 per KWH
 
you can get a special propane tank that gets burried underground. Just seen something about it on the diy network on tv. Might be something worth consitering. Or maybe a used oil heater. It burns drain oil from your truck, tractor, or just about anything. Just a few more options for ya to consider. Good luck.
 
It's gonna sound presumptious, me designing your building, but I can't imagine any kind of heat that's gonna do much for you and that you'd want to pay for until you get a ceiling over the work area and a partition between the shop and the storage areas. Without them, any heat you make is just going to run right up into the trusses. Radiant electric will warm your cheeks while you're right in front of it, but won't do much to warm the air down where you'll be working.

I have a neighbor with one of the few heated shop/garages in the the neighborhood, that makes him a pretty popular fella here is coastal Maine. His set up is primitive, but it works. He's about a 32' square, partition and an 8' rolling door, both insulated, between the two sides. He's got what s.crum describes, an old forced air, oil-fired furnace. (Is your covenant against propane tanks altogether, or just having them out where they can be seen? Can you build an enclosure around one?) For a long time he just left the plenum open to blow out into the one side and let the heat creep over to the other. He spent a couple of years scavengin' some 4" and 6" pipin', and we've now got it to where we've closed up the plenum and can use manual dampers to distribute warm air the full length of one side or the other or both, with drops to the floor.

Getting back to your space and getting less presumptious, an oil or propane set-up like that could work economically for you. I wouldn't count on a plastic curtain down the middle in the bitter cold months doing much to save you a lot of cost when you do go to warm things up, but you could put a line in to each side with dampers and try it.

Our next step on the neighbor's is to bump out enough of a slab and shed on the back end to make two small rooms, one for his compressor and a larger one with a 6' rolling door for his toolchests, and run a third warm air line and a separate return to them, so he can keep them at about 50 degrees without having to heat the rest of the joint. He's good about draining his compressor (we're isolating it just to keep the noise down) but condensation is such a problem around here that keeping the tools warm will be a big improvement. Might have to rig a double-throw-middle-off switch between two thermostats to make it work, but what's a shop without quirks?
 
how about a waste oil heater. a mechanical shop up the road from my shop has one, cost him about 2500 dollars or so for the unit. he gets waste oil free from a few of the shops, and the local diy guys bring in the old engine oil.he has half a dozen or so 55 gallon drums that he swaps out for bulk used oil.
 
What ever you decide to heat with ,if you install a couple of ceiling fans they will move quite abit of heat back to the floor of your shop.
 
Somehow if the neighbors don't want propane tanks,,they sure won't like 55 gal drums of used oil around . I have a waste oil furnace in my shop .It's all I heat with ,,it takes alot of oil to last me through the winter . I burn 55 gal a week avg . I love it ! But ,storage of oil can be a bit messy ,and finding enough oil is always a battle . There is no way I generate enough myself. Lot of places are buyin gused oil now also , took away lot of supply there .
I would look into in floor heat , electric waterheater /system
 
I suppose it could be buried propane or something like that. I tested my neighbors a bit by the size of the building. I do not generate enough used oil to keep a used oil burner going. What oil I do have I take to the car shop that works on my car. They are good folks and a grateful and do reasonable work on my car.

Larry
 
I think electricity in the area is competitive with propane heat (depending on the cost of propane). We are on the Dawson public power line in central Nebraska. The house is all electric (with a geothermal furnace) and our electric bill averages about $100 a month for the year (or even slightly less) That is pretty low for the area, but the geothermal furance is the key.

No doubt it would take a big jump if I tried to warm the shop to 70 degrees.

Last winter when I was putting in drywall and pegboard in the shop part, I used my nephew's torpedo heater (diesel), and it warmed the entire building to 40 degrees when it was 15 degrees outside with a wind.

Yep, open rafters are a problem, which why I thought overhead infared. Does not have to be t-shirt warm. I did not mind working in 40 degree weather. Keep the ideas coming.

Larry H.
 
The best bang for the buck in install and fuel price is ---Firewood. Plain and simple. Wood is a fraction of propane and a large wood stove can be found on craigslist or scambay. or your local area.
 
Larry, if you don't want to use firewood, you may as well bite the bullet and get 1400' of polyethyline pipe for natural gas. It's far cheaper than the electric line you'll need to get the necessary amperage for heat. Also, natural gas is less than half the price compared to propane for the equal amount of heat. You just need to bury the gas line 18", but an electric line would be buried, too.
 
Put the in floor heat in. My son and I both did it in Wis. He has a 40' X 40' and uses an outdoor wood fired boiler for the house and shop both very warm. I had a 24' X 32" shop and heated it with a 30 gallon electric water heater, Clark county electric in Wis. Worked great both buildings are well insulated and you can put a vehicle covered with ice and snow in at night next morning vehicle is warm and the floor is dry . Use the in floor heat you will never regret it.
 
You live on 5 acres or more, away from gas mains and you have a covenant against tanks?

Why on EARTH would anybody put up with that sort of Nazism? In fact, the whole concept of covenants eludes me. The sun ain't rose on the day I'd let my neighbors tell me what color I can paint my house.

Sorry, Off Topic I know, but that's one of my major hot buttons.
 
I hear you on that. I would do what I want when I want. Screw the neighbors. Save your money and get a propane tank.
 
Well, if he bought the place and signed the covenant, then he's pretty much obligated to observe the rules.

I just can't fathom why anybody would sign such a thing.

But hey, I'm a no-class redneck right-wing extremist, bitter, gun-clingin', etc. etc...

"8^)
 
Something no one has mentioned is the construction of the part you plan to enclose. Have it tight and have it well insulated. It's that simple. Your heating source won't have to be as big and hungry.

Six inches in the walls and at least 12 inches in the ceiling. Yes, the insulation bill will be big. If you don't pay attention to building it so it's tight and draft-free the extra money spent on good insulation will be lost. The extra days of labor will be forgotten about when you find out how easy the shop is to heat.

My shop was built in 1982, and I took extra care to get it tight. I went through the pain (at the time) of spending a lot of money on insulation. The shop is 30X32 with a 14' ceiling with a 16'W by 12'H steel insulated Raynor overhead door (expensive). A 60000 BTU propane heater will keep it just about any temp I want even on windy sub-zero days.

Be careful about a wood burner and your insurance company. I burned wood in this shop until I changed insurance companies last winter. The new insurance company claimed my old 110 year-old wood burner wasn't approved for the gas and paint fumes you find in a shop. It's down on floor level and not sealed right. The propane heater is hanging from the ceiling so that's OK. I guess paint fumes don't get up that high (HAH!)Jim
 
Gas is the only thing to consider. With only 5 members in the ASSN you only need two votes to change that covenant. Read it carefully it may say "visible" or "outside" or something. Put up a privacy fence around it.
Insulate the shop. Dropped ceiling is not nice, but mandatory up here. My pole barn shop was built with 5 inch walls, flat girts running horiz every 4 feet. Insulboard between girts and steel on the outside. Inside 6 inces of insulation , vapor barrier, then 5/8 inch particle board.
Two ceiling fans. And the 12 8 foot double element fixtures. Foam barrier all around slab and under it. Two drains. That's why I can heat it for $50 per month in SD winters.
Added a 14 foot leanto along long wall on east side. Kennels for 12-16 dogs there, with in/out access to that heated area shop.
Downside is I have north of 65K in the building, and I'm always adding something. Gutters,sattelite tv and internet, hot and cold water,shower, kitchen, bathroom and septic tank. Stainless tables for game processing. blacktop, fruit trees, board horse fence, and the list goes on. Just wish I had started it 20 years earlier.

Gordo
 
Larry, I'd like to read your Covenant and find the weak spots, some times they make mistaes no one can see, and it would be a real challenge for some one who tests regulations like me.

Can you tell me why they won't allow LP Tanks on site, or does it just say NO LP tanks showing,

do they allow other kinds of heat, like corn or wood pellet burners?
 
Fixerupper has some good advice.
Have you thought about coal and a stoker boiler? Burning coal is like purchasing fuel oil for 50-75 cents a gallon. Just having the stoker inside the shed will provide significant heat on it's own.
You could heat the shed floor and run insulated lines to the house into an hx in the furnace plenum. Heat domestic water in the house too.Great for swimming pools too.
b.t.w when building the shed. Do your self a favour and rough in kitchen sink, a toilet, shower and laundry supply and drains.
It's great to be able to microwave something in the shed, have a cold brew & shower off the dirt .Plus wash the work clothes without getting the Mrs mad about grease stains in her house washing machine. And if she's cranky, you can spend the night in the shed in comfort.
 
I wonder if the natural gas company was lurking in the background, throwing in a little influence when this covenant was written up. I can understand an ordinance requiring a certain setback distance, but totally banning the tanks from five acre lots just kind of smells funny to me.Jim
 
I have infared radiant heat, 4" steel tube with aluminum reflector above. I'm using LPG in it but the book with it says that you can use Natural gas. LPG, or fuel oil in it. I know hot water in the floor is well liked but I believe the radiant tube is a lot more practical and far less cost to install.
I can try to find out more about using the 4" tube with fuel oil, if you would like.

Dusty
 
I'm with Fawteen all the way. I understand and respect asking about the best way given the limited options left, and I am interested in the answers to the original question so apologize for contginuing the OT, but the inital harm is in the initial agreement. I once let a terrific house get away becuase the "covenant" said I could not bring a firearm onto the property. I wasn't about to be told by a bunch of oiled-hair lawyers that I couldn't bring my gun anywhere I wish. Not to mention that I was a police Lietenant at the time and carried my gun everywhere I went anyway. I forgot to ask the realtor if she expected policemen to disarm themselves at the development property line if answering a call...
 
Dave.. you say you heated that shop or are heating that shop with a 30 gal water heater and it's doing well? I'm going to build a shop just about that size this fall, if you have time, can you give me the rundown on how exactly you're setup and the process of the install? I like that idea..
 
They make electric radiant heaters that might work out for you. Some of them look kind of like a hanging fluorescent shop light fixture, but the tube inside the fixture has a heating element. Working under one of those radiant heaters is very comfortable in cold weather, as it heats you rather than trying to heat the air. They also make smaller units that are movable and sit on the floor. You just point the reflector at the area you plan to work in and again it feels very comfortable.

Obviously insulating the building very well will make it much easier and cheaper to heat. If you have access to waste wood (and the covenants do not forbid it), a wood stove can make a shop much nicer to work in for low operating costs. You have to also consider the time it takes to deal with the wood and the shed you will need to store wood to keep it dry. You also might want to check with your insurance company to make sure that they will not cancel you if your shop has a wood burner. A wood stove REQUIRES a good chimney to be safe. A wood stove takes some time to heat a shop. The electric radiant heaters are instantly putting out heat when you turn on the switch and some have variable intensity.

Unless your electricity is very cheap, I would think that there would be other ways of heating a shop that would be much less expensive to operate. But for occasional use and for low initial cost the radiant electric heaters are hard to beat. Good luck!
 
When you see "COVENENT", it"s time to run the
other direction. A covenent can preserve your
rights, or take your rights away!
 
WA-HAL, Do you have any experience with overhead infared heaters? A wood stove takes space, is an open flame, and dealing with wood is a pain. I grew up hauling wood for the wood stove in the house.

Thanks

Larry
 
Some of you are reading too much into the convenent. It is a subdivision with five families. It was drawn up by the first three or four there. No big deal. My building is bigger than the convenent allows but I talked to each of them and it was okay. Building has been up for three years. Oh yes, one of the neighbors is the local chief of police. I just want to get along with the neighbors. I pushed it with the building, I do not want to push it with one more than.

Larry
 
Yes I do. I have one hanging in my garage and turn it on only when I am working in that area. I also have 2 of the floor type heaters that I move around in the garage. The hanging heater is 240 volts and requires a dedicated circuit. The portables work on 120 volts and can be plugged in anywhere.

Unless it is incredibly cold, the heaters make it pretty comfortable to work in coveralls doing most things I do in the garage.

The first time I saw the hanging heaters was at a walk-up drive in restaurant in Spokane. They have about 6 or 8 of the hanging heaters above their waiting area outside of the service windows. They run them all winter, at least when they are open, and it makes it pretty comfortable to stand and wait for an order outside. It feels like sunshine, but is not really bright light.

I got my hanging heater when a local shop was being torn down. They had a row of the heaters near the work bench and I think those heaters provided most of the heat for that fairly large building. If I remember correctly, I paid about $20 or $25 for the used heater from the demolition contractor. They may also be called quartz heaters. I have probably had it for 15 or 20 years. If I was going to try to replace it, I would start at a large industrial electric supply company, as I have never seen that type of heater at a home center like Lowe's or HD. The smaller portable heaters are usually for sale at our Costco every winter for about $50 per unit.

The radiant heaters make the electric meter spin pretty fast when they are operating, but don't take any power at all when they are off. I don't think they would be that good to keep the place warm all winter, but make my otherwise unheated garage an OK place to work on things occasionally during the colder months. My garage is well insulated and not very drafty. HTH and good luck!
 
WA-Hal, I just think my shop is too big to think about heating to t-shirt temperature. I thought a couple of radiant/infared heaters and maybe supplmented by a salamander might do. Last January another fellow and I put up pegboard, OSB and drywall when it was 15 degrees outside and windy. We had a diesel salamander and it warmed the entire shop to 40 degrees. It was warm enough to work in coveralls. It is a pole building with insulated roof but no ceiling. If $$ were unlimited I might think of something different. Also, I am retired and to not have to work in the shop if I do not want to when it is too cold. Thanks much. Larry
 
i heat a 40x40 poles building to a comfortable temp not t shirt with a amish built wood/ coal heater a small one. before that i used a 55 gal double drum heater the trick to them is to put some steel in the upper drum to hold the heat i found old window weights worked best. iam in pa
 
I have an inground 500 gallon propane tank. I didn't like the look of having a big white hot dog next to my garage, so I paid about $1100 and bought the thing myself. The propane company sold it to me and helped with a consultant when it was installed. There is just a black plastic hinged lid about 18" in diameter that sets at the level of the ground. You can't hardly see the lid from over 50' away.

Go with in floor heat. It's worth the extra cost.
 
I also have a waste oil heater.Nothing messy about mine.I use 250 gallon shuttles for the oil,i won't mess with barrels.I looked today,i have around 700 gallon just from the neighbors.I have an electric pump that will fill a 250 gallon shuttle in about an hour from a neighors drums.My shop is a 40x72 and i heat with a reznor 150000 btu unit.
 
Found the pamphlet yesterday,Doesn't seem to have a number on it. Its called HOT WATER FLOOR AND SPACE HEATING. From NDSU Extension Service, North Dakota State University, Fargo ND 56105
 
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