How many different starters for '58 350U Gas?

[linemechanic1]

Still need more advice.......starter still just 'clunks' and heats up solenoid terminals real quick. Just put my 3rd "rebuilt-by-a-highly-respected-rebuilder" (a Dixie brand) starter on this tractor and it's still not turning the engine. Engine turns with a bar on flywheel teeth. It turns with a special bullnose I welded up with a 15/16" hex head bolt through it on the 10 tooth starter gear to directly engage the flywheel teeth. The flywheel teeth are in good shape for 360 degrees. It's a 12 volt battery, starter and solenoid. Tractor is not in gear. The outfit I bought the starter from (yeah....proagplus on eBay) says 'Well there may have been 3 different starters for that tractor'. The diesel starter would be different, of course, but this is the C-175 gas engine. I also noticed that there doesn't seem to be any starters specifically listed for a 1958 IH 350U gas. They list them for Farmalls for that year but not IH. I didn't think there was a difference but after two years of well-intentioned advice I'm ready to scrap out what was once a good running tractor (with original backoe/loader) and finance a used Kubota. Don't let me do that....

 

[Bob]

It looks to me like a the options boil down to either a 6 Volt or a 12 Vol option. What is the Dixie part # of the starter you have?

 

[D Slater]

Counting out LP and diesel a 6 volt starter and a 12 volt from 350 U serial number 14601 up was used on the utility. Main difference between the Farmall and utility was how the starter was positioned to clear the tighter space in the utility. Drive gear assembly for the gas starters was the same. 12 volt does show a different number for the mount end but maybe just to clock starter motor a little different when another terminal was added to starter switch. Remember seeing row crop starts used on the utility by mounting the starter switch in another location instead of starter housing with cable run to starter terminal. Don't remember if the starter stud interfered with tractor, or housing was clocked different to drive end when used.

 

[rustyfarmall]

3 rebuilt starters in a row? And all bad? Makes me think there is a problem with your battery, or cables, or connections.

 

[Janicholson]

Heat at a connection is an indicator of connection resistance. Clean that up first. Also try jumping directly to the starter stud to bypass the relay. Jim

 

[linemechanic1]

(quoted from post at 16:36:33 07/23/17) Heat at a connection is an indicator of connection resistance. Clean that up first. Also try jumping directly to the starter stud to bypass the relay. Jim

Wire brushed everything from engine bell housing, starter faying surface to engine bell housing, contact surfaces of battery negative ground cable and the bolt that goes through ground cable into starter mounting bolt hole, both battery posts brightened up. Touched positive battery cable DIRECTLY to stud coming out of starter. Just a 'clunk' as the starter gear moves to the flywheel and seems like it jams into the flywheel without engaging the flywheel teeth which means the starter gear can't turn so the terminal gets red hot within two seconds. The electrons are just piling up at the electrical contacts points (end of battery positive cable or on solenoid if I've connected that way) because the starter motor itself can't turn. Another guru mentioned just now that there may be a difference between the Farmall bell housing and that of the International? At least I think that's what he was saying. The last starter that turned this thing disappeared with a 'mechanic' named 'Matt' from the Hudson Valley here. He was going to have it looked at. That was two years ago. No more contact, phone disconnected, etc., etc. But I'm curious why the starter sellers (including YT) don't actually show a starter for an 1958 350U INTERNATIONAL with the C-175 gas engine. And yet there seem to be PLENTY of these 350 U's running around without this problem.....

 

[D Slater]

Same center housing was used on utility and row crop. Does the part that bolts to center housing have a number on it? If a W-6 starter end housing was installed on the starter could be one reason for jamming.

 

[Janicholson]

I agree, wrong pinion or starter.
Put the starter on the ground on a piece of cardboard. Attach a jumper cable to a mounting flange---STEP-- on the starter with one foot and hold it down real well (important). Touch the jumper cable to the stud. If it tries to get away from you in a big way, the starter is good, the pinion or application is wrong. Jim

 

[charlieu]

Is there any chance that you could fine a different tractor in your area to try these 3 starters that will not work on your 350U The row crop tractor is much easier to work with. 300, 350, 400, & 450 would be my choice. The difference in these starters is the location of when the relay in bolted unto the housing.

Have you check the Case IH parts system? I'm not aware of any difference in parts in these Utility tractors, other than the last 350 were available with 12v from the factory.

 

[linemechanic1]

(quoted from post at 23:00:25 07/23/17) I agree, wrong pinion or starter.
Put the starter on the ground on a piece of cardboard. Attach a jumper cable to a mounting flange---STEP-- on the starter with one foot and hold it down real well (important). Touch the jumper cable to the stud. If it tries to get away from you in a big way, the starter is good, the pinion or application is wrong. Jim

All the starter bendix gears have jumped right out and spun like crazy with lots of torque.....on the bench. I've done this plenty of times even though I deferred to the starter/generator guru in Liberty, NY for the previous starter and paid $40 for a new solenoid. Starter gear did the same thing: slammed into the flywheel with a clunk but wouldn't spin. New $304 starter/solenoid still does the same thing. I think D Slater is on to something about the possibility of a difference in starters based on the serial number of the tractor. I've never actually found out where there serial number is on this tractor but the 2" X 3" plate on the right side doesn't look like it has ANY numbers on it. Even though it has been painted over I would have thought the numbers would be stamped or raised. Where is the serial number on a '58 IH 350U located?

 

[linemechanic1]

This starter I just got is the only one which had the solenoid clocked correctly to clear the steering arm so at least someone was paying attention somewhere upstream of all this! I've had to jury-rig the previous ones to clear it.

 

[Dave Allgire]

I had a similar problem on one of my F14's. Mine would do the same thing. I had the starter rebuilt with a different pinion. Found that the pinion was longer and jamming into the flywheel. With the starter on the bench, I measured the distance from the starter mounting flange to the pinion end travel. Then I measured the distance from the bell housing flange to the flywheel teeth. Make sure you use the same measuring points on both gears. I had to have a 1/2" spacer made to make up the difference in these measurements because of the difference in the nose cone and bingo! everything worked. Hope this helps or maybe you have already done this?

 

[mattofvinings]

I'm just throwing out possibilities here.

Is is possible a rogue flywheel was used with a different gear pitch, or a slightly different pitch diameter on the ring gear?

Either one of those would seem to cause the mesh-crash condition that you are describing.

The only way I could think to check would be to have the pinion (or a loose replacement part from the rebuild shop) in my hand, and carefully try to roll it between teeth without dropping it. May have to elongate the shaft or jam a dowel rod into it for a better handle. The other check would be to try something soft like hot-glue and attempt to temporarily stick the pinion to the gear, that way you could step back and try to visualize if its centered within the location bore in the housing. That would give a gross indication, but it may be a very small amount that you can't measure with your calibrated eye. If you had a lathe you could turn a thick disk (~3/8"t) that just fits into that bore, with a center hole sized for a slip fit to a shaft, ultimately connected to the pinion gear, preserving concentricity. Then you could slide the pinion forward manually and see if you could engage it manually.

 

[Janicholson]

If he disassembled the starter, He could use a dowel for a shaft and put the assembled test "starter" into the hole and check the tooth contact. IIRC, the TA cover plate can be
removed and a mirror used to see what is happening in the starter drive location! Jim

 

[linemechanic1]

(quoted from post at 16:00:33 07/24/17) If he disassembled the starter, He could use a dowel for a shaft and put the assembled test "starter" into the hole and check the tooth contact. IIRC, the TA cover plate can be
removed and a mirror used to see what is happening in the starter drive location! Jim

Boy...if only I could see the precise point where the starter gear gets to the flywheel.
I did make up a 'Bendix' housing (minus the starter motor) and welded a large bolt onto the end of the gear shaft. Using a 3/4" drive ratchet I can slowly turn the engine all the way around a full revolution. As another guru pointed out; I may need to measure EXACTLY how far the starter gear comes out when energized and compare that to where the flywheel teeth begin relative to the face of the bell housing (I forget the name of the spacer housing between the engine and tractor casing). BTW—my discouragement has evaporated after all the support and ideas coming my way: this sucker WILL run again....Thanks!

 

[mattofvinings]

One more idea, using "layout blue" which comes in an aerosol can, if you sprayed a section of the ring-gear and then tried to bump the starter via battery, it may show you where contact is being made. A sharpie marker can be used on the tooth faces if its tough to paint them. I would think almost any flat spray paint could be substituted for the layout blue, however the layout blue may be more resistant to flakes chipping off since its designed to be cleanly scribed.

 

[linemechanic1]

The Dixie starter number is TS-1111172614. Yeah, that's five ones in front. Will put together some time this weekend to determine where that starter gear is hitting. The machinist dye (I think we called it DYEKUM or something in aviation maintenance). Blue and a little sticky....?

 

[mattofvinings]

Personally I would use the layout blue which dries kind of like thin spray paint over the greasy dykem "high spot" blue you'd use for machine scraping.

I think both will do the job but you'll need one part to be very well cleaned up with the dykem to analyze the transfer.