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How much can I haul

Yesterday's Tractor Forums
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larryanderson

Well-known Member
I have a 35ft. tandem axle gooseneck flat bed trailor pulled by a one ton single wheel diesel pickup with regular Iowa plates.How much can I haul.I have hauled two 9000#tractors.I also have a reg cab 1ton dually that I use.Can it haul that load legally?THANKS!
 
No one here can tell you.

You need to look at the GVW ratings on the truck and trailer to calculate the legal limits for your vehicles.
 
I had an F-350 and 25 foot gooseneck flat bed. I had over 40,000 lbs at one time, total weight. It drove and pulled just fine.
Was it legal? Heck no. It was not even legal empty. Why? Because the law says that it is based on the total capabilty of the rig. My trailer alone was rated at 25,900 lbs. That means I would need to pull it with a truck that was rated less than 100 lbs to be under the 26,000 lb law.
I sold it for several reasons. I did not want to pay all of the money to make it a semi, even though it was for personal use. I did not want the increased hassle of the DOT and chicken coops. And last but not least, if you knew the liabilty involved if you are ever in an accident, you would not want to pull out on a paved road with a "hobby" rig.
They have been on to the "farm tag" scheme for a while. That is a red flag that will get you pulled fast if they see it.
Read all of the Federal and State DOT rules and regs, and if you are not totally confused, you are better than most.
 

Regular Iowa plates are good for 3 tons only, or 6,000 pounds. Your truck alone will weigh nearly that much, and with just the trailer, empty, you have already exceeded 3 tons.

A one ton, single rear wheel truck will have a gvwr of about 9,500 to 10,000 pounds. The trailer you have is most likely rated 20,000 pounds, so add those two figures together and you come up 29,500 to 30,000 pounds, or 15 tons, which also puts you in the category of being required by Iowa law to have a CDL drivers license. Without the CDL, you are legal to drive the truck, but you best not hook up to that trailer.
 
You need to look at the GCWR (gross combined weight rating) of your truck set by maker to tell you what is legal.
Example... my truck 3500drw Chevy, GVWR is 11,400, GCWR is 23,500. It weighs 7,000lbs ready to haul. That means i can carry in bed 4,400lbs.
GCWR is 23,500lbs, that means I can haul--TRUCK,TRAILER,AND LOAD of 23,500lbs. Truck (7000#), trailer (6000#) equals load of 10,500lbs.
The trailer is a 20,000gvw tandem axle dually, so I will never have to worry about being over its GVW, plus it pulls smoother than single tire tandem axle.
You never add GVWs as that will put you over pulling rigs abilty, and your drivers license should tell you how heavy you are able to drive.
Here in PA, under 26,001 lbs single/combo is legal to pull trailers over 10,000gvw without a cdl as long as pulling rigs GCWR is under 26,001. I hope this makes sense as I have had to explain this to Police(dot) in three states, so far they have been unable to give me a ticket for being overweight or out of class(license).
 
That could be good in the state of PA, but each state is different,
It matters not what you have loaded on it up to the maximum rating, it has to do with the total capabilty. (GCWR)You may talk a DOT guy or two out of a ticket but if you get in an accident you best have log book, CDL, CDL insurance (start with $1 million), fuel stickers, medical, etc.
My trailer weighed 7,500 lbs, so empty or light loaded, I was not "over weight". However, the capabilty of my trailer was a total weight of 25,900 lbs. That left only 100 lbs for a truck.
I never located a truck that would pull that trailer that only weighed 100 lbs.
 
You are wrong on the over 10,001 pound trailer and no cdl license. Anywhere in this country a trailer over 10,001 pounds needs a cdl driver no matter what the pulling rig weighs. The only exception may be for a farm truck not used for commercial hauling. I'm also from Pa and have taken classes with PaDOT instructors. Around here the truck cops love pulling over farmers in their pickups with big trailers loaded with bales and /or tractors or skid loaders ect. Have a good fall season.
Just a note to the others about GCWR. The gvw of the truck and trailer don't get added together to get the gcwr. The gcwr is to be found for the truck. That lets you know how much you can haul, up to that number, truck, trailer, and load combined.
 
(quoted from post at 17:34:03 10/15/09) You are wrong on the over 10,001 pound trailer and no cdl license. Anywhere in this country a trailer over 10,001 pounds needs a cdl driver no matter what the pulling rig weighs. The only exception may be for a farm truck not used for commercial hauling. I'm also from Pa and have taken classes with PaDOT instructors.

Around here the truck cops love pulling over farmers in their pickups with big trailers loaded with bales and /or tractors or skid loaders ect.
Click to expand...


I hate to burst your bubble, but you have been incorrectly taught.

Federal regs say that you can have a bare truck weighing 26,000 pounds and not need a CDL.

That same truck weighing 26,000 pounds can pull a trailer that weighs 10,000 pounds. Exceeding the "magic" 26,001 threshold and still not need a CDL.

If the TRAILER weighs OVER 10,000 pounds, then and only then does the combined total of 26,001 become important.

So, in summary no CDL if;

1) bare truck (no trailer) is 26,000 pounds or less actual weight
2) If the trailer is 10,000 pounds or LESS the truck by itself can be 26,000 pounds or less
3) If the trailer is 10,001 pounds or more the COMBINED truck + trailer has to be 26,000 or less.

Naturally, each of the 50 states can make it the same as the feds or can make it more restrictive. In Wisconsin I think these are outlined in plain english in a document titled

cdl-vol1.pdf

My adobe is broken roght now so I can't open the stupid doc :oops:
 
You are all forgetting one major point. You are all referring to CDL in the commercial sense.

Buy an 80,000lb triaxle dump and register it as a personal use vehicle (read no commercial license plates) and you can drive it around all you want with a regular license (class D in my state). Same with a 18 wheeler.


CDL regulations only apply when the vehicle is used for commercial use, or for profit. Hence why you see some vehicles driving around with the "Not for hire" pasted on the side of the door.
 
(quoted from post at 03:00:25 10/16/09) You are all forgetting one major point. You are all referring to CDL in the commercial sense.

Buy an 80,000lb triaxle dump and register it as a personal use vehicle (read no commercial license plates) and you can drive it around all you want with a regular license (class D in my state). Same with a 18 wheeler.


CDL regulations only apply when the vehicle is used for commercial use, or for profit. Hence why you see some vehicles driving around with the "Not for hire" pasted on the side of the door.
Click to expand...

Most states designate a bare vehicle as a "CMV" if it is 26,001 pounds or more. Even one used for personal use. That is the case in the states I am familiar with.

Can you post a link from your DMV that plainly delineates what you said? Always trying to learn more!

Thanks,
jb

Here's the link to the Wisconin document I noted above.
http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/drivers/docs/cdl-vol1.pdf

The designation of "CMV" is determined by weight --> not by usage.

Page 7 is the one with a nice plain english chart showing this.
 
if you have a regular drivers licence you can operate single units[ the truck] less than 26000 lbs, you can tow a trailer up to 10,000 lbs from what i can look up that is coast to coast, some farm rigs are exempt within 150 miles of the farm, beyond those exemptions if the vehicle is operated on interstate hiways, or exceds the weight limits you must have a cdl licence and a medical card if you haul for hire or to make a profit you must also have a dot number people this stuff is not hard to get, and if you cant pass the test you should not be operating the equipment
 
It may not be hard to get in your state but in mine it's a royal pain.You have to pay a fee for each part of the written test, they tell you when you can take it,at their convenience.It takes hours of study to pass it.Lots of trick questions. If you fail any part of it you have to wait so many days to take it over.You have to get an appointment for a physical, more money. You have to make an appointment with a private tester to give the road test, more waiting, more money.Make arraingments to have a CDL driver go with you 50 miles to the nearest place to take the road test.If you miss 2 things on the pre-trip, you fail and have to come back at their convenience an pay the fee again. It's just too much time, money and BS for me to go to 2 or 3 tractor pulls a year. If I get caught I'll pay the fine.
 
People seem to forget that there are different classes of a CDL. Call the DMV in your state and see what is required. Every state goes by the registered, acutal, gross vehicle or combination vehicle weight rating. Whichever is the highest. That is exactlly how Wisconsin words is by the way. (www.dot.wisconsin.gov/drivers/drivers/apply/types/cdl2.htm) Our trucking company is based out of wisconsin so I quoted their reg's but most states are worded similarly.
The other thing to keep in mind is that if a person is in a accident (overwieght and without the proper endorsments) A good lawyer will have a hayday with you.
 
sounds exactly the same as here, when they went to the cdl system, they were supposed to grandfather in exsisting class system licenses, not here i had to go thru all that, studyied for a couple days, [ some of the ways they want you to answer are not the same way things would be done be a actual road driver], i understand they have made some changes to the test since then, still it was basicly common sence , when i went from company driver for 15 years to owner operator, it took me 3 days and around 750 bucks to get the dot number,fuel permit,state tax id set up to pay gross recipts tax, weight distance tax account, so i can pay road use tax on every mile i drive, motor carrier number so i can drive in this state, and my truck inspected by the dot for the required annual vehicle inspection, still it isnt hard, you just have to do the paperwork, oh and know the rules for heavy trucks in the state your going to be in
 
(quoted from post at 04:31:17 10/13/09) I have a 35ft. tandem axle gooseneck flat bed trailor pulled by a one ton single wheel diesel pickup with regular Iowa plates.How much can I haul.I have hauled two 9000#tractors.I also have a reg cab 1ton dually that I use.Can it haul that load legally?THANKS!
Click to expand...

[b:fcf404e895]Larry,
(2) tractors weighing 9000 pounds each = 18,000 pounds.
A trailer capable of hauling 18,000 pounds would have to
have a minimum actual empty weight of 6000 pounds
and a minimum gross vehicle weight rating
of (GVWR) of 24,000 pounds.
That is 24,000 pounds so far.
Your tow vehicle is probably rated at 10,000 pounds.
That is gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR).
So, we are at 34,000 pounds minimum for the two tractors .....
ANY combination of tow vehicle - trailer - load that EXCEEDS
26,000 pounds requires a commercial drivers license in MOST
states.
So, even if your trailer is EMPTY, if your TOW VEHICLE and TRAILER
combined have a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR)
in excess of 26,000 pounds - you need a commercial drivers'
license in most states.
IF you don't have a commercial drivers license & you are
stopped and inspected - you will PROBABLY get a ticket
for not having a commericial drivers license.
This is just addressing the necessity of having a CDL
in most states.
Equipment is another discussion.[/b:fcf404e895]
 
(quoted from post at 03:00:25 10/16/09) You are all forgetting one major point. You are all referring to CDL in the commercial sense.

Buy an 80,000lb triaxle dump and register it as a personal use vehicle (read no commercial license plates) and you can drive it around all you want with a regular license (class D in my state). Same with a 18 wheeler.


CDL regulations only apply when the vehicle is used for commercial use, or for profit. Hence why you see some vehicles driving around with the "Not for hire" pasted on the side of the door.
Click to expand...

I do not know what state you live in, but if you are driving that 80,000# rig in Iowa without a CDL, you will get a free ride to jail, and you will have to hire someone WITH a CDL to bring the truck home. It makes absolutley NO difference that you own the truck and you are hauling your own equipment or products, or if you are hauling for hire. The law applies the same in both instances.
 
what state does that? here in nm, if the vehicle designed as a comercial truck or has air brakes you cannot obtain a regular plate for it period, the only exception is bus type motorhomes or heavy truck chassis used as motorhomes and registared as such, these vehicles are limited to towing to 10,000 lbs no more, regardless of vehicle type unless the operator of the vehicle holds a class A cdl, the state is also considering legislation that would require all motorhomes heavier than 26,000 lbs to be operated by a cdl holder, a class B minimum , but it hasnt passed yet
 
Hate to have to chime in again, but in my state you can get a CDL exemption up to 80,000# if the vehicle has farm plates and is used to haul farm products or machinery (tractors) to or from a farm. 150 mile radius. I have a truck licensed for 35,000# with farm tags and air brakes.Don't need a CDL. The exemption is only good for over 26,001, is issued for 5 years and best of all it's FREE.
 
(quoted from post at 12:45:01 10/18/09)
(quoted from post at 03:00:25 10/16/09) You are all forgetting one major point. You are all referring to CDL in the commercial sense.

Buy an 80,000lb triaxle dump and register it as a personal use vehicle (read no commercial license plates) and you can drive it around all you want with a regular license (class D in my state). Same with a 18 wheeler.


CDL regulations only apply when the vehicle is used for commercial use, or for profit. Hence why you see some vehicles driving around with the "Not for hire" pasted on the side of the door.
Click to expand...

I do not know what state you live in, but if you are driving that 80,000# rig in Iowa without a CDL, you will get a free ride to jail, and you will have to hire someone WITH a CDL to bring the truck home. It makes absolutley NO difference that you own the truck and you are hauling your own equipment or products, or if you are hauling for hire. The law applies the same in both instances.
Click to expand...


The following are the exemptions in Michigan: Read the last line about individuals.

Are There CDL Exemptions?
The following people do NOT need a Commercial Driver License (CDL):
�� ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY: Operating military vehicles with military licenses (includes National Guard).
�� POLICE AND FIREFIGHTERS: Operating authorized emergency vehicles.
�� FARMERS: Operating vehicles within a 150 mile radius of their farm.
• An F-endorsement is needed by farmers operating combination vehicles whose towing vehicle has a
GVWR of 26,001 pounds or more. A knowledge test, but no skills test, is required to obtain the Fendorsement.
The F-endorsement is NOT a CDL.
• Farmers who carry hazardous materials in amounts requiring placards while operating combination
vehicles whose towing vehicle has a GVWR of 26,001 pounds or more, or a single vehicle with a GVWR
of 26,001 pounds or more, need a CDL with a hazardous materials endorsement.
�� INDIVIDUALS: Operating motor homes or other vehicles used exclusively to transport personal possessions
 
I stand corrected. I will ask the next cop I meet to see which standard he goes by. Around here I have farmer customers that were nailed for a trailer over 10,000 and the combined weight would have been under 26,001. It will be interesting to hear their answer. Have a good week.
 
(quoted from post at 10:34:48 10/20/09) The way some of you intrepid or read what you want to hear into CDL and DOT laws is just amazing.

The best part is you are so stuck in your beliefs that no one can explain to you where you are wrong.
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Not sure who you are talking to. I posted the Michigan exemptions. I have seen that some states have a different system than the federal. The whole CDL thing is screwed up. If you are a CDL type then it should be uniform in all 50 states. Motor homes or whatever should all have the driver qualification.

The issue is defining commercial. If commercial and over 10,000 you are wanting to be DOT compliant. So every lawn jockey and pickem up towing a trailer as a business has to have a chauffers here and be DOT compliant.

At our company we have 2 trucks between 10,000 & 26,000 so we need chauffer, all DOT and such. We have 20 more under 10,000 which are fine untill we hook a small trailer then we are over the 10,000.

If over the magic 26,000 then we have to be fully CDL and DOT compliant. Some of the exemptions we see are only for one part of the law. In Michigan we have an exemption for service people hauling tools and part for thier job, however they must still have a med card and vehicle inspection, etc, so what good is the chauffer exemtion? We just have to have the shop haul the trailers or we would need everyone with med cards, etc.
 
The length of this thread speaks to how confusing the CDL laws are.
There are 48 states on this continent. Just go pull down the state CDL rules from a few states and look how different they are.
In order to avoid a ticket and fine, even when you have a great demeanor, you must be in compliance will not only the state that you are stopped in, but the state that you are from, not to leave out all of the Federal laws ruling CDL's.
One main problem is that they are supposed to be geared toward "commerce" moving for hire. But the laws include weight restrictions which apply to whomever, farmer, private hauler, you name your excuse and they can find a way to fine you.
To add insult to injury, the weight and CDL laws do not apply when pappy is aiming a large heavy motor home down the asphalt.
Since it is difficult to determine what is really commerce for hire and what is personal "stuff" on a trailer, they just take the easy way out and fine you as it you were an 80,000 LB semi hauling wahtever for hire.
To close, if your rig is in an accident, your fault or not, you best have about 1 million in insurance or you may not have anything to haul nor a place to haul it from or to.
 
Larry, call the DOT in Des Moines. There are a lot of answers given, but only a few are correct. I asked several DOT officers at the St Fair last August and what they said is it's different between being "Commercial" and "Private". Your truck will need to be licensed for the weight of the truck itself along with the weight the trailer tongue adds to the truck and NOT the total weight.
Iowa uses the Federal regulations for intrastate regulation. When you cross a state line, the federal regulations apply. If you are "private", the vehicle you're driving is registered in your name and not "John Smith Farms INC, you are not hauling for pay, you aren't hauling your tractors somewhere to do work for pay, you aren't going to an event where you will be entering a contest that pays prize money, you don't have a sponsor helping to pay any expenses. If any of the above does apply to you, you're commercial and the regulations get a bunch more strict. You will need a DOT number, log book, daily inspection book, CDL, just to name a few. The best thing you can do, is call the DOT. They will explain what you need to be legal.
 
Larry, call the DOT in Des Moines. There are a lot of answers given, but only a few are correct. I asked several DOT officers at the St Fair last August and what they said is it's different between being "Commercial" and "Private". Your truck will need to be licensed for the weight of the truck itself along with the weight the trailer tongue adds to the truck and NOT the total weight.
Iowa uses the Federal regulations for intrastate regulation. When you cross a state line, the federal regulations apply. If you are "private", the vehicle you're driving is registered in your name and not "John Smith Farms INC, you are not hauling for pay, you aren't hauling your tractors somewhere to do work for pay, you aren't going to an event where you will be entering a contest that pays prize money, you don't have a sponsor helping to pay any expenses. If any of the above does apply to you, you're commercial and the regulations get a bunch more strict. You will need a DOT number, log book, daily inspection book, CDL, just to name a few. The best thing you can do, is call the DOT. They will explain what you need to be legal.
 
CDL laws are confusing just by the lawyer talk they are written in. Trying to find a loop hole makes it worse.

From other post you have made on this site you sound well informed to what the rules are but mad because they pertain to you in your "personal" truck.

Where most get confused is DOT laws (only commercial) and CDL laws (everyone).

CDL law is federal and states have very few rights in changing them. They were mandated to try and stop drivers from having multipliable drivers licenses.

What you have to consider is these laws were written when 1 ton trucks and bigger were owned by a business only. Now every soccer mom trying to keep up with the Joneses has a one ton pickup.

For me CDL laws are to lax. I feel if you drive a rig that weighs 26000 lbs you should have training to do so. A CDL only proves this training. That rig could be a RV; a 1 ton with your hobby tractor; or a business. Each one will hurt my family the same when you hit us because you did not have the right training to drive such a rig.

So welcome to the future of trucks. They have made laws to where you can not do electrical; plumbing; or HVAC work on your own house. You need a licensed contractor. About time the trucking industry came out of the stone age where any Joe off the street corner could barrel down the highway with 80,000 lbs reeking havoc on our highway system.

As a side not try this test……
Any time you hear anyone complaining about CDL laws ask them if they think the DOT should crack down on crazy truck drivers and their own the road attitude. You do know you can not have it both ways…… RIGHT.
 
(quoted from post at 00:47:23 10/22/09)

Where most get confused is DOT laws (only commercial) and CDL laws (everyone).

CDL law is federal and states have very few rights in changing them. They were mandated to try and stop drivers from having multipliable drivers licenses.
Click to expand...

If CDL applied to everyone then there would not be exemptions for police, firefighter, farmers, and personal use.

I do however agree that it should apply to anyone operating a vehicle in the CDL class, but CDL does mean Comercial Drivers License.

Since CDL starts 26,001 and trailers over 10,001 here in Michigan we have a chauffer license for the 10,001 to 26,001 range. If personal an operator license is fine, but if comercial then the DOT and chauffer apply.

See the exemption I posted above. Every one can read Michigan CDL on the state website.
 
John,

Not sure if you addressed the "mad" part at me or someone else.
I am not mad, I am disguised with the dychotomy in the system.
To your point and the one that I made, "pappy" in a big heavy motor home can wrek just as much havok as a "farmer" pulling his stuff to a show.
I think the laws need a total rewrite for many reasons. I am passionate about this, but not mad.
I would have been happy to be tested on any facet of handling and understanding my dually and goose neck trailer.
But you have to understand, where there is revenue involved, the Feds and the States are not going to back up. There is no revenue for them if they allow hobby farmers to drive safe and trusted rigs for personal use just like they do folks pushing a motor home down the highway with a Hummer in tow but CDL required.(In most cases, the dually and trailer are much safer)
It is the same way I feel about speeding laws. Imagine how many people have been stopped and fined, and look how highway accidents and speeding have actually increased. They know that the laws are not working, but the "piggybank" is getting stroked, that is the driving force to keep the laws as they are.
Still not mad, just a proud American, born and raised, that knows we could be doing so much better in many areas.
 
One thing I am happy about here... they did away with exemptions of any kind for driver licencing about 30 years ago. We're strictly on a class system. Class 5 for your everyday car/truck up to 14000 KG registered weight. Heavy trailer endorsement required for trailers over 4500 KG.
Class 4 required to drive taxi/sped bus up to 20 passengers or so. Class 3 for straight trucks over 14000 KG WITH an endorsement for trailers over 4500 KG. Class 2 for motor coach... and yeah, that includes gramps with his false teeth that can't back up (I guess he can if he passed the test)... and Class 1 for semi/tractor trailer. There are no exceptions for anyone. Medicals required on 5 year renewal for everyone (above class 5) and more frequent after I think age 60.
The only real exceptions that were made was for those who were driving at the time the Class system came into effect. Naturally there were a lot that swore they 'always' drove a semi... and they signed the paper, or had their employer sign the paper stating that they were infact driving... so they got grandfathered in. Most could drive OK anyway... but there's still a few of them out there.
I think this licence system is a reasonable idea. It takes the ambiguity out of it and makes sure that everyone is qualified.
On the other hand, the compliance end of the DOT up here can be just as much of a mess as you describe... There's a lot of things that are enforced at ossifer's discretion.. and that's different, ossifer by ossifer, minute by minute and there isn't much that you or I can do about it.

Rod
 
"Mad" may have been a bad choice of words.
Disgusted over how the system works may have been better.

You can bet your bottom dollar many pockets were filled to get the RV exemption.

The feds answer to changing the laws as they sit reflect the fact that they can not please everyone. Change it to fit one group and five minutes later someone else is wondering why they were not included.
 
Same here.I'm sick of all the DOT and CDL crap! Getting a CDL is a nightmare.All the tests and drivers liscense requirements in the world wont eliminate stupid drivers. I see that daily.

Its not the pickups and trailers causing problems in my area,its mostly the OTR truckers.Recently one ran a stop sign and pulled out of the local truck stop without even looking and I about slid my car under his trailer.
 
(quoted from post at 05:39:54 10/22/09)


If CDL applied to everyone then there would not be exemptions for police, firefighter, farmers, and personal use.

I do however agree that it should apply to anyone operating a vehicle in the CDL class, but CDL does mean Comercial Drivers License..
Click to expand...

In Taxconsin, Firefighters need a CDL to drive the truck. The plow guy salting the road needs a CDL (unless there is NO-ONE else available), etc.

As John in LA put it, there are laws that keep you from doing work on your own house. Soon to be laws that you can't transport your own property.

I STRONGLY disagree with those laws as they were written to protect unions. Not to protect the home owners or the public at large. Why else can't a home owner wire up his house and have it inspected unless a union guy did it? The inspection would either fail it or pass it. Plenty (PLENTY!!) of union guys get failed by the inspectors and plenty more should. Yet I know of several non-union guys that know the regs and do far better work than was ever done by a union guy. (Wire's strung thru the joists with holes 5/8", all wires stapled exactly on 16" spacings, all wires stapled with the printing showing, all wires flat with no twists, no spices - straight run only, wires in the circuit box spaced 3/16" inch with plastic wire looms (he made the looms), no wires in the box crossing any other wire, etc. I told him he should use see thru sheet rock so the art behind the walls was visible!

Sorry for the OT rant, but I think Big Government needs to get chopped down by about 97.38%.

jb
 
One of many points is the "26,001 LBS" was established years ago. It is an old number. It needs to be raised in some cases, and other classes of private and hobby driver licenses need to be established.
Modern trucks and trailers are built much better and safer than those of days gone by.
Once again, what is "safe" about "pappy",
or anyone for that matter, aiming a 40,000 LB plus motorhome down the highway? Aren't the laws established and enforced to protect us?
In the case of DOT and CDL, they are now used to raise much needed revenues in most states. That does not make anyone any safer, now does it?
 
(quoted from post at 10:05:01 10/26/09)
(quoted from post at 15:42:52 10/25/09) Police and fire fighters in Iowa are not exempt from CDL licensing if the vehicle requires a CDL.
Click to expand...

CORRECT!! And thank goodness for that requirement.
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I do not know how Michigan can grant exeptions to the federal requirements but it is clear in the Michigan CDL guide, see my prior post where I inserted it as coppied from the state website.

Anyone can read Michigans law at michigan.gov/sos but it is easier to google "michigan cdl"
 
[i:654c4848f0]I do not know how Michigan can grant exeptions to the federal requirements but it is clear in the Michigan CDL guide[/i:654c4848f0]

Michigan can grant exemptions to the federal law because the exemption is written into the federal law allowing them to do so.

Federal DOT law Part 383 defines CDL laws.
§383.3 covers applicability
§383.3(c) says each state MUST exempt operators of CMV’s for military purposes. It goes on to outline who is specifically covered.
This is the only people a state MUST exempt. All others are state discretion because the word used is MAY.
§383.3(d) covers farmers, firefighters, emergency response vehicle drivers; and drivers removing snow and ice. It says states MAY exempt these people if it wants to.
It outlines just who is exempt and under what conditions.
If you read the law word for word you will see that drivers that remove snow and ice are NOT exempt and they must have a CDL in all states.
The only exemption for snow and ice removal is if a snow or ice emergency exists that requires additional assistance; or the regular CDL driver is unable to operate the vehicle.
In other words EXTRA help does not need a CDL but the regular driver needs a CDL.

Like I said before..........
EVERYONE that drives a truck meeting CDL rules falls under the law. The only way around it is to have a exemption.
In fact the old law use to list a exemption for RV's. The law has changed and by the new wording it now only applies to CMV's. The problem most of you have is defining what a CMV is.
 
John you seem to know a great deal about DOT regs, what is your take on exemtion 390.3(f)(3).for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation etc.I talked to a DOT man in my state the other day and he told me if I was only using my truck and trailer to haul my tractors to tractor pulls, I was not commercial and did not need a DOT number or a CDL. The problem is the people out there trying to enforce the laws don't know the laws themselves.
 
I use a DOT compliance company at work for our fleet of small trucks with biggest being about 16k GVW.

They say that so long as it is non business use you are exempt. They further state that a non DOT employee can use one of the trucks to move to a new house and he would be exempt as personal.

If he drove the truck to a jobsite for business then he would be in violation.

They define commercial as any business purpose where the vehicle is rated in excess of 10,000#. This includes a pick up with tandem trailer attached as we would be about 13,000#.

In this area they have been citing the lawn people. Many of them now have tie downs on the mowers and DOT numbers. (about time)
Click to expand...
 
"MY TAKE" is you are walking a fine line and one DOT officer may not see it as another does. Compensation does not have to be cash.

So let me ask. Are you truly going to tractor pulls with no notion of winning anything.
I really do not know how tractor pulls work or if there is any prize money at stake but I assume there is.. SO....

For me a tractors used in pulls is the same thing as a race car. The race car guys are not exempt but many are getting around the law by pulling their trailer with a RV.

Try this example.......
I have a pickup and goose neck trailer hauling a sickle bar used to cut hay. DOT stops me and ask where I am going. I tell him I am going to cut hay on land I own for my 5 cows. I never have and never will sell any hay I cut so there is no compensation. I feel I am exempt because this is nothing more than a personal hobby. But the DOT starts writing tickets anyway. I am puzzled until he ask....
Have you ever sold a cow????????
All of a sudden the word compensation shows its ugly head.
 
John, I personally have never won 1 red cent at a tractor pull. If I am lucky enough to win I get a $10.00 plastic trophy to set up and collect dust. You can take one of these and a dollar and buy a small cup of coffee about anywhere, so is this for profit?
 
I would be very tempted to go to work tomorrow and fire that DOT compliance company if I were you.

It is true a non DOT compliant driver can use a truck and trailer in the 16K range for personal use. The problem with your statement is they are using a company truck not their personal truck.

Lets do it this way........
You are the DOT officer........
A non DOT driver pulls out of the yard in a company truck (shown on registration) pulling a company trailer. This would be easy to spot by the way from the company name on the door. You stop him and he tells you he is headed for his house to move his personal belonging to a new house.

Do you believe him or write him a ticket?????
Remember he is in a company owned truck and may be just telling you this to get out of a ticket.

Anyone that thinks this driver is walking away with no ticket needs to read DOT laws again including your DOT compliance company.

Not only will the driver get a ticket but the company will get several tickets for not having a DOT drivers file on the guy.

You better understand and take the position that a company truck is a company truck when ever it leaves your yard. It can not be used for personal use EVER.
Now if the truck is in your name; you have magnetic signs on the door you can remove; and you want to lend it to a employee on Saturday to move; then that is a different story. It can not be traced as a business truck (during the week) because it is in your personal name.

Like I said.........
The problem most of you have is defining what a CMV is.
 
While I personally feel this is not for compensation I really do not want to tell you that and you get into trouble.
By the way "Profit" does not matter “compensation” does.

I feel your biggest problem is going to be convincing a DOT officer on the side of the road that you have put this much money into a tractor with no offer of compensation should you win.
Remember the DOT officer knows nothing about tractor pulls and if there is a prize awarded.

Then there are those that would say your $10 trinket is a prize and therefore is compensation.

So I am sorry but I would rather not answer because I still feel you are walking a fine line.
 
John, you are correct but that is why we have judges and court systems to decide issues like this,but the problem is most people won't buck the system, they would rather take the easy way out, that exemption was put in the regs for a reason and if I get stopped I intend to find out why it was put there. If the judge rules against me I will pay the fine and move on from there. A piece of paper doesn't make a truck driver, my wife has a CDL , but she is not a good truckdriver, I've been driving trucks since I was 16 years old and have never had any kind of accident, but according to the law she is legal and I'm not.I am not trying to put you on the spot in any way and thanks for your input.
 
Again, John, state laws will vary. Maine specifically excludes token compensation from condideration in determining commercial use that might require a DOT number. So that any ribbon or trophy I might win at a tractor show, or that neat little medallion all entrants get that they can stick on their tractors or their tool chest doesn't count.

And selling a cow???? Perhaps but not always. There still exists in law the concept of a private transaction. Yeah, I've sold a tractor, too. Can I never again, on the basis of that one sale, haul another another tractor, or even just an implement for one without a DOT number? Yes, I can, it was a private transaction, not part of any business or commercial enterprise.

Closer to your case --- a 4-H kid raises a heifer. It becomes something of a family pet, but they think they'd like to milk her and they decide to keep the heifer. They breed her and sell the calf. Their answer to your DOT guy has to be "Yes, I've sold a cow." That was a private transaction and is not grounds for requiring a DOT number, either for hauling bought hay home or transporting equipment to make hay.

Take it to the extreme. Have I ever sold a vehicle? Yes. By that DOT officer's logic, I would require a DOT number to operate a dually rated for 11,200#, because I've sold other vehicles. But those were private transactions, not commercial.

There's a certain sickness driving enforcement these days. Their tickets are for civil offenses, and do not fall under the same innocent-until-proven-guilty protections afforded to those accused of criminal offenses. Police forces hire consultants to come in and train officers to develop some very far-fetched cases for defining commerce. All those officers have to do is accuse you of operating commercially and write up a stack of tickets. It is then up to the person cited to prove that they aren't engaged in commerce. A fresh-faced lawyer two weeks past his bar exam and a diploma from a fly-by-night law school could beat a ticket of that kind by merely citing the transaction the officer used as evidence of commerce as being a private transaction. If the officers were required to do the work to investigate a transaction of that type to provide solid evidence rather than suspicion that it was commercial, there'd be a lot less in the way of citations written.

It's revenue driven, it's absurd, and it's an abuse of police powers.
 
"Remember the DOT officer knows nothing about tractor pulls and if there is a prize awarded."

This goes to the core of your discussion with welding man and reinforces what I said in my long-winded post up above.

He knows nothing about it, but starts writing citations on an assumption that there must be some tortous, strained definition of compensation involved. Heaven forbid he would go to the event and investigate before issuing a citation.

I don't know which is worse. He could write one $500 ticket, or a stack of the worth three grand, either one of which would cost a thousand dollars to go to court and beat. And Lord protect us from the scofflaws in uniform that would impound the trailer or the entire rig on such a sketchy assumption!

The departments pursuing revenue in this manner are out of control renegades.
 
I think you missed the point I was trying to make on the cow.

I have 5 cows. I sell 5 calves a year. I do not make a dime. In fact most years I am in the red because of fence; feed; hay baling cost.
This is just a hobby to me but the DOT calls it a business because I am compensated each year from the sale of the calves.

Remember the DOT uses compensation in their wording; not profit.

The same thing goes for your tractor or a vehicle.
Just because you sold one in the past does not make you commercial. But buying one tractor a year; fixing it up and reselling it does. The difference is you intended from the day you bought the tractor to resell it and only bought it for that purpose.
 
Sounds to me like if the DOT has that much authority, they are either working for the IRS or the tax accessor. I can't see where that has one thing to do with motor vehicle safety. It's all about the money.
 
This became an interesting topic.I personally have a CDL as we have hauled seed for hire.Pesonally I have always went by the scales with my 1ton truck and trailer when hauling tractors but not sure as sign reads 10,000 or over and pickup weighs 7500# or more.Question still remains if I can haul two of my own tractors Thanks for replying sounds like Im fine till I get FINED
 
"The difference is you intended from the day you bought the tractor to resell it and only bought it for that purpose."

That's an erroneous assumption. You never asked that and I never said it, but you've got the citation book open and ready to start writing. No, I did not buy the tractor with the intention of fixing it up and re-selling it. I used it for several years and sold it to buy something bigger and bettter suited to my needs. But if an honest "yes" answer to the roadside query, "Ever sell a tractor (or a cow)?" leads to a stack of citations based on commercial operation, the officer and the department are not doing their jobs adequately or in good faith. That one question is woefully insufficient to make that kind of determination.
 
Kevin, you should check with the DOT in your state. The Iowa DOT provides compliance assistance at no cost. The officer shows up at your place of business, will conduct a seminar for your drivers based on the nature of your business, and check your fleet to ensure you're properly registered, etc. They don't show up with a ticket book to write fines.
You're throwing money away paying an outside company that may or may not know the regulations.
 
Weldingman, it's not "Profit", the DOT will call that $10 trophy "compensation". Compensation doesn't necessarily cover all costs involved. It's almost a trick statement. Think of it like this, how many times have you fixed something that by fair market rates should have cost $25 but because the customer is a friend or family member you say give me $5 and we'll call it even?
 
State congressman Kerry Burt who also is or was a fireman in Waterloo recently got a DUI and lost his license which was a CDL. It was all over the news here that he could no longer drive vehicles for the fire dept.
 
For what its worth, this discussion made me think about what I have been doing here in southern Missouri and whether I am crossing any imaginary lines in my comings and goings. So I did a search and came up with the following from the MO State Highway Patrol website.

"Commercial Driver’s License (CDL) – The CDL is required if you transport hazardous materials that require placarding; transport 16 or more passengers including the driver; drive a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) or registered gross weight of 26,001 or more pounds; or drive combination vehicles with a gross combinaton weight rating (GWCR) or a registered gross weight of 26,001 or more pounds, provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds."

Sounds pretty straightforward to me. However, I can see that it would be pretty easy to have a trailer weighing more than 10k.

Christopher
 
Again, you make the points that are worth noting. There is so much rumor about DOT rules and CDL requirements.
A trailer with a 14,000 LB GVWR being pulled by a vehicle with a GVWR of 12,001 or more requires a CDL because the [u:c294eb5afe]gross vehicle weight rating [/u:c294eb5afe](GVWR) is over that magic 26,000 LBS. If you are empty, you need a CDL.
If you pull a 14k trailer, look at the GVWR of your turck and see what it is. This is BEFORE you place one ounce of "load' on that trailer.
Then, you can also not be above the GCWR (gross combined weight rating).
I'll bet many of you need a CDL and did not feel that you did.
What makes me wonder about how realistic these rules are is this. If 26,000 LBS is such a magic threshold number in needing a CDL or not, why are the huge motorhomes not included? They carry the same momentum and potential safety issues as a truck and trailer that requires a CDL.
Here are full descriptions and keep in mind that you are out of bounds if you exceed just one of these parameters in anyway. This is why it is so easy for the DOTers to issue fines.

GVWR: Gross Vehicle Weight Rating
The MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE WEIGHT of the fully loaded vehicle, including liquids, passengers, cargo, [u:c294eb5afe]and the tongue weight of any towed vehicle[/u:c294eb5afe].

GAWR: Gross Axle Weight Rating
The MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE WEIGHT [u:c294eb5afe]each axle assembly [/u:c294eb5afe]is designed to carry, as measured at the tires, therefore including the weight of the axle assembly itself. GAWR is established by considering the rating of each of its components (tires, wheels, springs, axle), and rating the axle on its weakest link. The GAWR assumes that the LOAD IS EQUAL ON EACH SIDE.

GCWR: Gross Combination Weight Rating
The MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE COMBINED WEIGHT of the [u:c294eb5afe]tow vehicle and the attached towed vehicle[/u:c294eb5afe]. GCWR assumes that both vehicles have functioning brakes, with exceptions in some cases for very light towed vehicles, normally less than 1,500 pounds. (Check your chassis manual or towing guide.)
 
it is all in the type of truck and trailer registration you have and what you do with your truck and trailer combination when on the road! it also has to do with the truck and trailer towing capacity as well! even if over 26,000 total combination, you are still a recreation vehicle and therefore do not have to comply with the CDL requirements! i haul tractors and equipment, all my own property, and have never had any issues with DOT from any state! i have been stopped many times! i merely explain that i am engaged in a recreational activity, like someone who is driving a dualie pickup with a 40' gooseneck camper, hauling my own property, and, not for hire, to and from a tractor show or tractor/equipment purchase! it also helps to have documents in hand showing the items on the trailer are yours through bills of sale, etc, i case you need to prove this to the inspector! all this and no attitude goes a long way! i know some will argue my post but it has worked for me for over 10 years now! and the gov't is no closer to rewriting the laws to make it clear that there should be other classes of drivers hauling their tractors, etc, who should be exempt from the CDL requirements! just my two cents!
 
the camping world has a very strong lobby in washington which will do whatever it has to to keep the gov't from requiring special licensing (CDL) on the huge motorhomes and fifth wheel/gooseneck type trailers pulled by pickups! it is in this vein that i slide into and create a position for myself that i am involved in a recreational activity and therefore do not have to get a CDL license! i made the arguement to my own state DOT inspectors as well as many other states i have been stopped in! it is priceless when you make an arguement to an inspector and he or she has no rebuttal to you as you get back into your truck and trailer and drive away! again, i do it without attitude which seems to work!
 
(quoted from post at 10:38:40 11/09/09) the camping world has a very strong lobby in washington which will do whatever it has to to keep the gov't from requiring special licensing (CDL) on the huge motorhomes and fifth wheel/gooseneck type trailers pulled by pickups! it is in this vein that i slide into and create a position for myself that i am involved in a recreational activity and therefore do not have to get a CDL license! i made the arguement to my own state DOT inspectors as well as many other states i have been stopped in! it is priceless when you make an arguement to an inspector and he or she has no rebuttal to you as you get back into your truck and trailer and drive away! again, i do it without attitude which seems to work!
Click to expand...

If that method works for you, that is just simply great, but I think you are trucking on borrowed time. I may be wrong, and I hope I am, but you might want to dig into your states definition of a "recreational" vehicle.
 

I am in favor and agreement with most of what you are saying. However, there are two outstanding issues.
If you have a wreck, your fault or not, you may be in for a surprise.
The other issue is this. Do you want to be on the highway with a person hauling "recreational" tractors that is not worthy or trained on handling the rig?
You and I know how to handle the rigs, but does everyone?
 
A piece of paper don't make a truck driver, I know several guys that never took a CDL test,they were driving when the CDL system came in and were grandfathered. One I know can hardly read and write but he's the best truck driver I have ever seen when it comes to handling a rig. Just because you don't have a piece of paper that says you can drive, don't necessarly mean you can't. I also know a couple that have CDL's that Can't Drive A Lick.
 
To a point I agree with you... but if there was a stringent test program in place, the ones that can drive would get a licence and those that can't, won't.
Reading and writing doesn't have much bearing on one's ability to get a licence. At least around here it doesn't. DMV can make provision for that, and I beleive they are required to make provision for that... but you still have to demonstrate an ability to operate safely. I'm thinking in terms of people who don't read very well but have some ability.

I think CDL standards and testing should apply to everyone tho. I've spent more than one Sunday afternoon at my buddie's campground... and let me tell you. When he gets a caravan of 40 coaches come in... it's scary. Then there's the old guys with the 3/4 ton and a big gooseneck. Half can't use a mirror to save their life let alone back up the trailer. There's a reason why campgrounds try to have as many pull through lots as possible.
It wouldn't bother me one bit if every one of them were forced to undergo a full CDL road test. They should, and fail if they can't do it.

Rod
 
no mater what you think the rules mean as applyies to your operation and weather your hauling for hire or hauling your personal stuff a few things always apply the 'rules' as written may not nessessarly be the rules as understood by the individual law enforcement officer that has you stopped at the time, and it is always cheaper to just go get the cdl, and the dot number than it is to 'fly by night' and have to pay the ticket , the court costs, the fines, the jail time, the wrecker to haul your rig to the impound yard, the storage fees, and whatever else is incured as "handeling charges" when you find out what you read or heard was wrong
 
My neighbor annd I have had that same discussion several times. (He drives truck for a living and I've watched him put a 53' spread axle right here he wants it every time, but can he back his pickup straight into his garage????) I haul as a hobbyist, (16' box trailer and a car hauler, both 7k tandems, and a 20+5 24k gooseneck) and take my responsibilities in putting them on the road seriously.

We both agree that there ought to be a written and road test to haul any trailer over something like a 1500# snowmobile trailer.

We're in Maine, and between the local wrecks on the road and the campers coming in from out of state it's a wonder more aren't killed. Honestly folks, your little Coleman pop-up isn't that heavy, but if you had ever in the five years you've owned itchecked the air in your tires, or had a look at them, then perhaps they wouldn't have blown out sending you, and your family off the road, taking out the motorist beside you aong the way, wrecking your car, your camper and your vacation. And honestly, Pops, I don't care if your 32' motor home has a Cummins in it. All by itself, you want plenty of room when pulling into or across traffic. It's not as spritely a your Buick. Oh, yes, that Buick on the towbar behind you, you'll need extra room and even more time for that.

No test is going to cover it all. Many states require hunters to show that they've passed a hunter safety course before they'll issue them a license and I'll just hazard that more people are killed in wrecks involving non-commercial trailer hauling than are killed in the woods each year. It seems a small leap to require a license endorsement for pulling a trailer. Qualifying for that endorsement, could involve a school or not, but it should certainly involve a separate written and road test.
 
My question is what ever happened to good old common sense? A license for everything is not the answer.I have a drivers license,a hunting license, a fishing license, a business license, a license to work on air brakes, a license to work on air conditioning,a fork lift operators license, a license to carry a concealed weapon,a license to drive a farm vehicle, an expired student pilots license and enough welding certification papers to fill an average briefcase, and Oh yes A DOT number .Does any of these make me better at what I do? No, but they are great revenue generators for our federal and state Govts.
 
It was a good idea to have folks pass test to prove that they understand the workings of a particular vehicle or piece of equipment. However, as our government has been doing for years, they are crafty enough to see these as revenue generators instead of for what they were intended.
I still contend that the stiff fines that are levied for speeding do not work. It is a gravy bowl of money for the States, but look at how many speeding related accidents we continue to have.
I managed quality for the company that I worked with, and results are the bottom line as to how well something is or is not working.
Speeding fines have now hit all time highs since the States are desparate for money, but is it truly making us any safer? The results do not indicate that it works.
Here's what really strikes a nerve. I am not going to reveal too many details, but, in the middle of our country, north of Mexico, some of those guys were driving up through the middle of the States and hauling used farn equipment back. I know for a fact that some of them did not have CDLs, some of them did not even have a Driver's License. The cops basically would turn their heads unless something was really dangerous looking. Why? Well for one, the guys that hired these cheap drivers were paying off the cops. And the other thing is the cops knew that the Mexicans would not have any money, never show up for court, etc.
Again, the driving forces of many of these "regulations" is money, not safety.
The 26,000 LB thing is way old and needs to be adjusted. They are not about to do that because it would cut in to their revenues.
 
(quoted from post at 19:55:49 11/09/09) A piece of paper don't make a truck driver, I know several guys that never took a CDL test,they were driving when the CDL system came in and were grandfathered. One I know can hardly read and write but he's the best truck driver I have ever seen when it comes to handling a rig. Just because you don't have a piece of paper that says you can drive, don't necessarly mean you can't. I also know a couple that have CDL's that Can't Drive A Lick.
Click to expand...

Those of us that were "grandfathered in" still had to do a lot of studying in order to pass the required and very lengthy written exam. Anyone who could not read or write and could not pass that test did not recieve a CDL.
 
I will add my 2 cents for what it is worth. I drove snow plow trucks for the county for years and had to have a CDL. Trucks used to maintain a highway system are considered part of commerce.

I have Tanker and Hazmat endorsement and what a pain in the BUTT to renew the hazmat. Take the written test every 4 years and get finger printed every 4 years. I don't know why you have to get finger printed each time.

Been in the fire service for 32 years and don't totally agree with the fire truck driver exemption. The fire chief is allowed to grant the drivers of the trucks the CDL exemption. Sometimes this is done with the driver having very little training.
 
I totally repsect the folks that serve in our fire departments.
But like most groups, you typically have one or two bad apples.
I have a two lane road behind my home that is posted 25 MPH. The local fire department uses this road as a short cut to get to the main road where they go to lunch, etc.
It is one thing that they are going over 25 MPH but it is much harder to stop a big firetruck.
There is a 4 way stop just down the road, and of course these same drivers that speed, also have to play with the jake brake.
Maybe it gets boring hanging around the fire station waiting for something to happen, but this is what they choose to do.
No one can get them to stop because when you report them, it gets lost in the politics.
The local police do the same thing. Non emergency, just maybe going home, or going to eat.
It is just as dangerous for an emergency vehicle to speed as it is any other.
 
I know several farmers driving tri axle grain trucks with no CDL. They get stopped occasionally by the cops. As long as they are hauling their own stuff, it's legal. They do need a fuel permit, my uncle found out thar the hard way. This is in KY and IN.
 

Excellent conversation ! As 730d points out, it is A LOT about the money.

One point worth mentioning (that hasn't been mentioned in 5 pages of dialogue). The fee schedule (at least here in Michigan) for Commercial Vehicle tickets is substancially different (higher) than for private vehicles.

A simple burned-out tail light can be as much as $500 vs whatever it is for a personal vehicle. A friend got a $500 ticket because his low air buzzer wasn't working even tho the gage was working.

This is a cash cow for local municipalities. 1 Motor Carrier cop can generate probably 10 times the revenue of your average Traffic cop.

It is my opinion you should do whatever you can do to keep yourself from being classified "Commercial" if you can possibly get away with it. One of the clubs I have pulled with for years has a non-profit 501(c)(3) status.

It would seem to me if questioned by the DOT (on a road side stop), the mention of non-profit status, and the fact that any proceeds from the club you are pulling with go to charity- and that there is absolutely nothing in it for you personally- should go a long way to proving personal/ non commercial status.




Mark
 
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