Hydraulic Valve New Chamber Thickness

[Jimps]

I got a hydraulic pump rebuild kit with new chambers for my 52 8N. Once reassembled the pump is now too wide across the chambers to fit into the belly of the tractor. I know this has been discussed before, but I was not clear on whether to grind down the outside of the chambers slightly or try to grind off the inside edge of the tractor belly to allow the pump to install? What is the preferred method?

If I take the chambers to a machine shop how much should I ask them to remove from each chamber?

Would grinding the outside edge of the chambers slightly weaken them fatally?

Thanks,

Jimps in GA.

 

[rluscomb]

I had the same problem when I rebuilt mine. I was worried about grinding the new chambers or taking to a machine shop, caise if they take to much off then your done, another chunk of change to buy another kit.

What I done was place the punp on a small board and jacked it up to the point it enters into the belly, took a sharpy and outlined where I need to grind it so it will go into the tractor, then for saftey i took a popcicle stick and clamped into place and put JB weld where I grinded, probobly didnt need to do that but worked out ok, put some black sealant around the top and bottom of the gasket and it worked like a charm, no leaks , no nothing, may have to re-grind if I ever want to take it down again, i may have to remove the JB weld.

If someone has an easier way to do this I promise I will not et maad, i'll count to 10 and ask questions before I do something like that again

 

[Dean]

I once made the mistake of installing new aftermarket chambers, and it turned into an absolute NIGHTMARE.

I will not take the time to relate everything that I went through but suffice it to say that you will probably be MUCH better off using your old chambers or, if not possible, buying a pair of good used OEM chambers.

Dean

 

[Anonymous-0]

I once assembled a 9N pump and got the chambers turned around front to back, this made the pump wider in the narrower area of the rear axle housing and it would not fit. Turning the chambers around cured the problem.

 

[Anonymous-0]

I have ONLY oem parts to sell

 

[souNdguy]

how much clearance are we talking about? a few thousandths or alot.

IE.. is it a too thick of gaskets issue?

soundguy

 

[Dean]

It's not the gaskets.

The aftermarket chambers, regardless of manufacturer, are not made to the same dimensions as the OEM chambers.

I tried two different designs from different manufacturers. Both interfered and required machine work for installation.

I spent hours with a die grinder grinding (both chambers and differential case), test fitting, grinding, test fitting, etc., before I was able to install the pump, only to find out after reinstalling the lift cover and refilling with oil that the valve seats had not been machined rendering the pump totally non functional.

I ended up reinstalling the used OEM chambers, which, I found after close inspection, were a closer fit to the pistons, both 60 year old OEM and new aftermarket replacement, than either type of aftermarket chambers.

NEVER AGAIN!

Dean

 

[souNdguy]

only reason i mentione dit is I had seen an issue before with too thick of gaskets cause a slight interference fit before.

I wonder if you could put the chambers on a flat table lapping machine. how much are we talking 10 thousandths each maybee? or way more..

soundguy

 

[Jimps]

It's not very much at all, probably a few thousandths. I carried a bag of Hardee's biscuits to my local tractor shop this morning and told him my dillema. I bought the kit from him. He figured I would be back since he has run into this problem before. He suggested that I grind out the edge of the tractor belly where the chambers are hitting, but only a little. He said he has done this many times before and that I should not have to take off more than 3/16" total (3/32" from each side) in the shape of a 50 cent piece where the chamber bulges are hitting. I'm going to try that tonight and post back.

Thanks,

Jimps in GA.

 

[Jimps]

(quoted from post at 14:59:56 12/09/10)

I ended up reinstalling the used OEM chambers, which, I found after close inspection, were a closer fit to the pistons, both 60 year old OEM and new aftermarket replacement, than either type of aftermarket chambers.

Dean

Dean,

My chambers AND pistons were pretty well worn. A fair amount of slop. No strength in the lift. I took the old parts in to my local tractor guru and he surmised that the lift had too much back-flow from all the slop to be very effective. I already replaced the ram piston with a new NAA style last February when I had the whole thing apart for cleaning. That helped a little bit (it will pick up my landscape rake now) but it would not budge the harrows. My other 8N lifts them just fine. The PO rarely used the lift in 30 years, he just used the tractor to move boats around at his boat repair shop.

Thanks for the info. I HOPE that I don't have as much trouble with the new chambers as you did! I was at a point of having rings installed on my old pistons and having the old chambers nored out a bit to receive the re-worked pistons. That is still an option, though!

I'll post back with my results from tonight.

Thanks,

Jimps in GA.

 

[Jimps]

(quoted from post at 16:16:45 12/09/10) only reason i mentione dit is I had seen an issue before with too thick of gaskets cause a slight interference fit before.

I wonder if you could put the chambers on a flat table lapping machine. how much are we talking 10 thousandths each maybee? or way more..

soundguy

I was thinking about using my stationary belt sander, but I'm concerned that taking off any amount from the chambers might weaken them. They are pressurized, the sump is not. So I think I'll try some minimal grinding in the tractor belly first. As long as I have plenty of gasket surface for the pump to mate I should be fine. Trial and error tonight!

Thanks,

Jimps in GA.

 

[Hobo,NC]

I would take the parts back to'em,,, take the money and buy a live set up from Zane are TOH and never look back...

It will B the best money you could spend on the tractor...

 

[Jimps]

The pump almost goes in now, but I need to grind off a little more tomorrow. Ran out of time tonight (and beer!) :wink:

Jimps in GA.

 

[Dean]

Much more in some spots.

Dean

 

[Dean]

Again, I strongly recommend buying good used OEM chambers if you feel that you must replace yours.

More than likely, your problem is due to leaking valves.

Dean

 

[souNdguy]

ouch.. thick AND uneven... not good!

soundguy

 

[Dean]

Ford used unique castings for both left and right chambers.

To save expense, the aftermarket suppliers are attempting to use the same casting (machining in the case of A&I) with changeable port plugs for both left and right chambers.

These designs have proven marginal at best and unacceptable at worst.

Add to this the lack of meaningful QC, e.g., failure to cut valve seats, and one should expect lots of unhappy customers.

Dean

 

[souNdguy]

yep.. universal fit parts rarely do....


soundguy

 

[Jimps]

(quoted from post at 14:27:21 12/10/10)

To save expense, the aftermarket suppliers are attempting to use the same casting (machining in the case of A&I) with changeable port plugs for both left and right chambers.

Dean

I don't know about that, Dean. The chambers I got look like they were poured from different cast molds. I'm not an engineer but it looks like you could not use a left mold for a right chamber. They just seem to be too thick. Here are some pics:

New aftermarket chamber is just too thick!

Jimps in GA.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 22:18:48 12/10/10)

(quoted from post at 14:27:21 12/10/10)

To save expense, the aftermarket suppliers are attempting to use the same casting (machining in the case of A&I) with changeable port plugs for both left and right chambers.

Dean

I don't know about that, Dean. The chambers I got look like they were poured from different cast molds. I'm not an engineer but it looks like you could not use a left mold for a right chamber. They just seem to be too thick. Here are some pics:

New aftermarket chamber is just too thick!

Jimps in GA.

Great pictures. Looking down from above on that bottom picture where is the interference? Can you mark the picture and repost? The bolt flanges appear to have been left too thick by the finish machining process - pretty easy to remedy if you have access to a mill. I can see how that could be overlooked by someone without access to the prints casting replacements from an original if they did not know there was a clearance issue.

The walls on the valve bores look only slightly thicker. If they are scraping on the openeing I would dress them lightly with an angle grinder and sleep soundly.

TOH

 

[Jimps]

TOH,

I annotated the picture where the new chambers are interfering with the fit:

Jimps in GA.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 13:13:31 12/11/10) TOH,

I annotated the picture where the new chambers are interfering with the fit:

Jimps in GA.

Pretty much what I suspected. It is difficult to tell from the picture but it looks like the chamber wall thickness on the new ones is is a little greater than the OEM. The foundry was probably trying to err on the safe side in their allowance for shrinkage. I would grind that area flat along the outside length of the chamber until it was the same wall thickness as the OEM ones. If that doesn't clear then maybe a little circular relief off the inside of the center housing opening where they are hitting. Doesn't look like a big deal to me but then I am not there to see how much interference there actually is.

TOH

 

[Jimps]

Success! I got the whole thing to fit now. Once I got the pump to go up in the housing it would not slide forward. Lower bolt head on right chamber was hitting the pickup tube on the inside. Did not try to force it, of course! So I ground off the top of one of the bolts to match the clearance of the old chamber and it fits now. Below are a few shots of the modified right chamber. I had to grind off the left one the same way, just not the bolt head.

Jimps in GA

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 17:29:20 12/12/10)
Success! I got the whole thing to fit now. Once I got the pump to go up in the housing it would not slide forward. Lower bolt head on right chamber was hitting the pickup tube on the inside. Did not try to force it, of course! So I ground off the top of one of the bolts to match the clearance of the old chamber and it fits now. Below are a few shots of the modified right chamber. I had to grind off the left one the same way, just not the bolt head.

Jimps in GA

ow! Got any valve chamber wall thickness remaining?

 

[John Smith8N]

(quoted from post at 03:18:48 12/11/10)

(quoted from post at 14:27:21 12/10/10)

To save expense, the aftermarket suppliers are attempting to use the same casting (machining in the case of A&I) with changeable port plugs for both left and right chambers.

Dean

I don't know about that, Dean. The chambers I got look like they were poured from different cast molds. I'm not an engineer but it looks like you could not use a left mold for a right chamber. They just seem to be too thick. Here are some pics:

New aftermarket chamber is just too thick!

Jimps in GA.

Those castings are considerably thicker than originals and they look like they were cast in beach sand in some third world country. Thicker under the bolts as well as around the chambers. How can they keep selling junk like that? I would think sooner or later the complaints would do them in, but I've been hearing these same stories for a long time now. I just hope after all your trouble that the valve seats are finished well enough inside the chambers that they will work for you. Can you tell us if there is a brand name or distributor name on the kit you bought? Or, where you bought it? Hopefully nobody else has to face the same problems. I've always been fortunate enough to find good used originals. Thanks for the pictures.

 

[Jimps]

(quoted from post at 18:32:35 12/12/10)
Those castings are considerably thicker than originals and they look like they were cast in beach sand in some third world country. Thicker under the bolts as well as around the chambers. How can they keep selling junk like that? I would think sooner or later the complaints would do them in, but I've been hearing these same stories for a long time now. I just hope after all your trouble that the valve seats are finished well enough inside the chambers that they will work for you. Can you tell us if there is a brand name or distributor name on the kit you bought? Or, where you bought it? Hopefully nobody else has to face the same problems. I've always been fortunate enough to find good used originals. Thanks for the pictures.

John,

I got the kit from my local tractor repair shop. He said that he gets the kit from the same distributor who sells them to nnalert and this site. I think he said the chambers were cast in India. I'll try to find out some more from him this next week. I don't remember seeing a brand name on the box.

Jimps in GA.
Jimps in GA.