IH 504, shut off while driving, spark?

leinhit

Member
This message is a reply to an archived post by old on April 14, 2017 at 08:10:00.
The original subject was "Re: IH 504 No spark out of coil".



I am reopening this old Post because it is exactly the same problem I"m having now.

international 504 tractor.

yesterday I was driving it through the yard and it just shut off.

Initially I thought maybe the key switch had bounced back to the off position as it has done so many times before. Currently it has a key switch to energize everything and a push button to turn the starter over.

Following the directions above to check for spark at the points, I initially believed there"s was no spark at the points, so I use sandpaper to clean them up a bit while it was still in the tractor.

not an easy thing to do.

And after cleaning them I had spark when I would open and close the points manually with the key on.

However it still will not start. I have tried starting fluid and nothing. It appears to be getting fuel.

any other suggestions?

I have not tried taking a spark plug out and cranking it over to see if any spark reaching it.

I did replace all the spark plug wires today with a used set that I had laying around however that used set was way better condition than the ones that were on it.

Thank you for all your input look forward to replies.

What to try next?
 
Sand paper or emery cloth leave behind grit that will let you see a spark but still not be good enough for you to have a spark that will run the engine. You need to remove that grit with a piece of cardboard like the flap from the box points come in
 
Thanks, I will try that next. Seemed like pretty good spark tho.

But I don't have much to compare it to, been long time since I dealt with points.
 
I'll check and report back, I have to use a mirror to see in there cause it is sideways tight against the motor. And use a screw driver to open the points without getting zapped.
 
After you try everything else, here's my method for finding the cause of no spark: No fancy tools required mostly just your eyes maybe a simple cheap 6/12 test light. If she sparks but stops ONLY AFTER she's good n hot but is okay after cool down, the condenser or coil may be at fault.

With the ignition on if you put a test light on the coils INPUT (from Ignition Switch) other lead to frame ground, it should be lit and stay lit as the switch feeds it hot battery voltage HOWEVER put the test light over on the coils OUTPUT (to distributor) its normally off when the engine isn't running and ignition on because the points are usually closed BUT if you rotate the engine the light should flash ON when points open but go OFF when they are closed. If you ALWAYS have voltage on the coils output to dist terminal (ignition on) the points aren't closing or are badly burned and corroded or the wires bad/open from coil to dist to points or points or dist isn't well grounded ALWAYS CHECK AND CLEAN AND GAP POINTS FIRST as that's a typical cause of no fire. If light gray oxide coated a dollar bill passed through them may get her going and if badly burned or pitted a points file dressing may get her going THEY HAVE TO CLOSE TO CONDUCT COIL CURRENT THEN BREAK OPEN TO FIRE THE COIL.

Heres my Ignition Troubleshooting Procedure if you need more in depth help. CHECK THE POINTS FIRST they have to be clean and closing fully to operate.

TROUBLESHOOTING A BATTERY POWERED EXTERNAL COIL TYPE IGNITION SYSTEM: PRELIMINARY CHECKS:
(A) To see if it happens to be a cap n rotor problem and to see if at least the coil is firing, remove the coil wire from the distributor (leave coil end intact) and place its bare end to within 1/8 inch from tractor iron, turn her on n crank her over, and see if she jumps that gap with a good visible blue spark?????? If so but the plug wire ends (from wire end to 1/8 inch to frame) or the plugs themselves don?t fire, its a cap n rotor or plug wire problem. If the coil wire isnt even sparking, see below.

(B) Next open the cap and see that the points are gapped correct and indeed opening and closing as the engine is cranked and the distributor shaft rotates and MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY !!!!!!!!!!!! If so, running a point file between them to clean them up might make her run again HOWEVER that?s only a temporary cure, so if that cleaning makes her spark, INSTALL N GAP NEW POINTS. In the event they appear good but only gray oxide coated, non abrasively clean/buff/polish them using say a dollar bill or shop cloth etc. and see what happens.
MORE TROUBLESHOOTING IF ALL THE ABOVE STILL FAILS TO MAKE HER SPARK

1) THE VERY FIRST THING YOU GOTTA HAVE is voltage to be present on the coils high supply (NOT to distributor) terminal when you turn the Ignition switch ON. If not she cant ever fire, but in the event the ignition switch or circuit/wire down to the coil or any Ballast Resistor is bad or open, you can HOT WIRE it by jumping a hot ungrounded battery voltage source to the coils high input supply (NOT to distributor) side n see if she runs then???? If she fires hot wired, you could have a bad ignition switch ((That can happen, when Ignition is on, the switches IGN terminal must turn hot)),,,,,,,or an open Ballast (if it has one) or a bad/open wire from switch to coil.

If the switch is good, if you turn the ignition switch on and place a test lamp on the coils high (NOT to distributor) terminal SHE MUST LIGHT UP. If not again, look for an open Ballast Resistor (if it has one, it should read around 1.25 to 2 ohms across its terminals) or bad/open wires from the switches IGN output down to the Ballast (if it has one) and distributor.

2a) When the Ignition switch is turned on, voltage should appear on the coils high input side. That would be 6 volts on a straight 6 volt system or 12 volts on a 12 volt non external ballasted system, or around 6 volts on a 12 volt system that used a 6 volt coil plus an external Ballast Resistor and the coil is good and the points are closed and they and ALL wiring is good.

2b) To insure the coils low voltage primary winding is not bad/open, use an ohmmeter and measure its DC resistance between its lil + and -terminals. If its an open circuit (no continuity) its bad/open and will NOT work. It should measure around 1.25 to 2 ohms or so if its a 6 volt coil and maybe 2.5 to 3.5 if its a 12 volt internally ballasted coil. NOTE CAUTION have all leads and any voltage source DISCONNECTED FROM the coil for this simple primary winding continuity test.

3) Next, place your voltmeter or test lamp over on the coils other low to distributor terminal side, turn her on and crank the engine over.

4) A test lamp there should flash ON (when points are open) and OFF (when points are closed) as the engine is cranked slowly.

5a) If the lamp never comes on there, the coils primary is bad/open,,,,,,,,,,or the points are never opening,,,,,,,,,or theres a shorted/bad condensor (remove its lead to points and see if lamp comes on, if so, bad shorted condensor or its wiring),,,,,,,,or the points wire is shorted,,,,,,,,or the distributors side pass thru stud is grounded (use ohm meter to test that),,,,,,,,,or the points may have a shorted spring.

5b) If the lamp never goes off as engines cranked, the points are not closing or are bad,,,,,,,,or the wire or circuit is missing from the distributor to the points,,,,,or the distributors not well grounded to the tractor.
She cant fire the coil unless its low side is getting a conductive ground return path via closed points and then the circuit is open when the points open.
Be sure the condensor or its wiring is NOT shorted out and see if the lite comes on (when points open) with the condensor disconnected. If removing the condensor makes her spark, replace the condensor.

SUMMARY
Be sure the points are closing fully and open on high cam and ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY,,,,,,,theres voltage present on distributors high side at all times when ignitions on (or its a bad switch or open ballast or bad wiring to col),,,,,,,voltage on coils low side flashes on and off as distributor is cranked,,,,,,,,,condensors not bad/shorted,,,,,,,,no shorts in wires to points and no shorts in pass thru side out distributor stud,,,,,,,,coil has continuituy.
You may luck out n just need a new set of points. If the coil wire fires (see above) and the plug wire ends to 1/8 from frame but NOT the plugs, they are badddddddddddd. Check them BOTH.

Good Luck n God Bless, post back any questions and your findings and any questions.

John T
 
John,

First thank you for the best walk through write up I ve seen in a long time! I took something from everyones reply and thank you all.

Pictures attached.

using your test procedure I found that I do have voltage to the battery side of the coil. However I tested the other side of the coil going to the distributor and found that I had constant voltage there as well. With my voltage test light on it and cranking it over the light would only vaguely dim but did not flash on and off.

There is no spark from the coil wire to the tractor frame from the coil side.

I then went inside the distributor. I had already put on a brand-new cap as I had one laying around. However I do not have points and a condenser laying around I will have to find where to order one.

As you can see in the pictures I believe the points looks fairly pitted and burned up. when I open them manually with the ignition switch on I do get a spark once in a while but it seems weak and inconsistent.

when I crank it over with the starter I do not see any spark at all. The points are visibly opening and closing.

I did use sandpaper to try to clean the points off the best I could however it's in a very awkward sideways position.

After some cleaning with sandpaper I put it all back together cranked it over and it started for 2 to 3 seconds before shutting off again.

At this point I believe I need new points and condenser just to be safe probably a rotor as well.

can you give me an easy to understand walkthrough of replacing the points and gapping them correctly? I do not know what the Gap is supposed to be.

I assume turn the motor over until the points are open and then using a feeler gauge loosen the screw adjust the gap to the right opening and then retighten. Does that sound correct?

it would be much simpler to take the rotor out to replace the points and condenser because as you can see it sideways in there however I am worried about messing up the timing or causing other issues for me to address so I will probably try to do it where it is in place.


cvphoto27115.jpg


cvphoto27116.jpg


cvphoto27117.jpg
 
Fixed !

New cap, rotor, and points. Gapped to about .020

Thank you all for the help.

I included a pic of the old points. I was surprised it would just stop running. I would have expected the bad points would just not let it start once I shut it off.
 

I had a case a year or two ago where my Super A just suddenly stopped right in the field. It had no spark and when I looked at the points, that feeler that rides along the cam on the distributor had broke. It was still attached but just barely and would no longer follow the cam and open and close the points.
 

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