IH 504 Utility Problems

[Theodore51]

Hey all,
I've been doing tractor stuff for a while now, but until recently I thought I knew what I was doing. I bought an International 504 utility model with these options:

Power steering
Rear and front remote hydraulics
Independent PTO
Live hydraulics
3pt
Torque Amplifier

I bought it for my dad who has always wanted a tractor with these options. The only problem is that this one quit when we were trying to fix the headlights. I tore into it a few days ago, after I ordered a new Pertronix ignition kit and the coil to go with it because I thought the coil was the problem (the kit and coil haven't arrived yet). Turns out the spring holding the points open in the distributor was broken. I put a coil spring in to see if the tractor would fire and it started up, even with the year-old gas in it. I drove it for a while and it died again, and after cranking on it, the cranking motor decided it didn't want to crank anymore and whenever I pushed the button for the starter nothing happened. The wiring in the tractor is a mess and even tapping the solenoid and messing with the wiring now does nothing. I realize the wiring should all be redone but I can't find any wiring harnesses for sale for an IH 504. Thoughts on this?
Also, sometimes while trying to start the tractor the starter will grind and I have to wait for it to spin down before I can try again. I hope it isn't the ring gear...

If you're still reading after that whole mess, I thank and applaud your perseverance in my dilemma.
The other glaring issue is the fact that even when the tractor starts, I have the choice between two speeds of the engine: 1)barely idling or 2)full throttle. The linkage is loose and rubs on the power steering lines which are steel, it's even wearing a gouge into it and I'd like to remedy this because I really don't want to have to replace a hydraulic line. I really detest IH and Farmall's design of their hand throttles, since they run down along the side of the engine, stop at another linkage in the front, and travel up the other side of the engine. Does anyone know how I can adjust this linkage so that I can have full range of my throttle instead of painfully slow and Evel Knievel fast?

After all that, and word on clutch adjustment? Mine doesn't release until about the last inch or so of travel in the pedal.

The carburetor needs to be gone through as well, and I have horrible luck with the tractor not starting after I take apart the carb. Any cleaning or adjustments I can do to help it run more smoothly while it is in one piece?

Thanks so much to anyone who took the time to read this horribly long post, I really do appreciate it. If anyone has any ideas at all, please let me know!

Theo

 

[mkirsch]

It might be more helpful to tackle things individually, rather than laying out all your various issues in one really long post.

When the starter does something, then stops, it's usually one of the battery connections. With all the other problems, a corroded battery cable or connection somewhere is likely. Don't just "look" at the connections. You can't tell anything by "look." Even if they seems fine when you "look" take them apart and shine them up. Bad connections will make the lights light, but won't pass enough current to make the starter turn.

Fixing the battery connections may also cure the starter grinding problem. If the starter is getting low voltage due to a bad connection it may not spin fast enough to engage the Bendix in the ring gear.

If the starter still grinds, you will need to pull it and see what's going on. Maybe a new Bendix on the starter is all it needs, along with a little touch-up of the ring gear teeth with a file.

You may be stuck making your own wiring harness. The 504 isn't a common tractor like the A, B, C, H, M etc. so there's limited aftermarket. I don't see a current part number listed for the 504 wiring harness on the CaseIH online parts store either... Some CaseIH dealers can/will check "the parts depot" for NOS leftovers. It may be worth asking.

 

[RC Brooks]

Theo,

You've found a good place. Many here have answers. I can help some, but I'm hardly a guru... though many here are.

1) So first... your wiring

http://external_link/wiring_diagrams/IH%20404-2404-504-2504.pdf

Start there. It's very gracious of them to offer these.

That said, if you cranked too long, you may have fried your starter or starter relay (don't have a 504. Closest is an 806 so I'm just using general mechanical knowledge). Try jumping the starter directly. If it doesn't move... then it's fried. Have it rebuild. If it does move after directly jumping it, then it's in your wiring (I'd look at the starter switch). At least when you say you tried starting it, nothing happens... I'm assuming it's not turning over at all.

2) Engine speed. If you slowly open the butterfly by hand, does the engine slowly gain speed or suddenly jump once you get so far? If the engine speeds up smoothly, then yes... it's your linkage. Again, not being familiar with the 504, your linkage might be linked with pins. If the pins are worn, replace them. If the rods themselves are worn too (not entirely uncommon) you could weld them back up and redrill the pin. Or, you could also just move to a larger pin (depending on how wobbled out they are).

If it jumps suddenly, even manually operating the carb, its the carb. See 4)

3) Clutch. ALL the clutches I've seen are adjustable in some manner. You might buy a manual. They are cheap enough online for pdf versions.Typically, there's a threaded portion where you can adjust clutch engagement.

4) Carb.... so did you already have it apart once? This might be your problem with 2) if it's not the linkage. I'd say you need to get back into the carb. Did you rebuild it? If you did, how did you clean it? Did you dip the carb? What all did you inspect/replace?

Hang in there, I would like to get a 504 or a 544 one of these days. I've heard lots of positives about them.

 

[RC Brooks]

(quoted from post at 13:31:27 08/13/13) Fixing the battery connections may also cure the starter grinding problem. If the starter is getting low voltage due to a bad connection it may not spin fast enough to engage the Bendix in the ring gear.

True, I didn't think to recommend cleaning the battery terminals. Also check the ground strap. (Assuming the 504 is a negative ground)

 

[Theodore51]

I didn't replace the carb, I haven't even had it apart yet. And I didn't think to try and move the butterfly valve by hand, I will do that.

As for the starter and such, I suspect faulty wiring is the issue. When I bought the tractor I had to replace the push button starter switch and new wires on that front, so I know that isn't the issue. I was trying to get a general sense of what others know about issues with these tractors.

I do have a manual with wiring diagrams and things about the carburetor, but they aren't very specific on anything really, just general things. It does have how to adjust the T/A and clutch, so I think I can make it on that front.

Thank you for your reply! I will definitely try things that were suggested!!

 

[RC Brooks]

I wouldn't buy a new carb, just rebuild the one you have. AND if it hasn't been rebuilt, that'd be a first stop for me. It's relatively cheap and easy. So often crud gets built up. A carb dip works, but recently I've been boiling in a lemon juice solution that works better than the carb dip (at least in my experiences).

Try jumping the starter to see if it moves. It's a quick way to eliminate it as a problem. Assuming it's fine, just grab an ohm meter, start at your ignition and move to the starter relay. At least 3 out of 4 times it's been ground issues for me. You should be able to ohm out all the connections in under an hour. Chances are, you can get them ohmed out in under 30 minutes.

If you aren't familiar with ohm meters and resistance, it's very easy. An internet search will likely yield many tutorials.

 

[TomA in CA]

Are you sure the battery is fully charged? From what you say it sounds like it has run down. With any tractor there is no reason to assume the charging system works.

 

[Theodore51]

I did recharge the battery, and I'm about to go try it again. Hopefully a hot battery and some fresh fuel will help.

 

[mkirsch]

Work on getting the starter to turn the engine over first. Once you get that worked out then you can start fiddling with other things.

 

[Theodore51]

I was able to get the tractor to start and run, and was able to move it a few feet. It will run fine, but after about a minute or two of running it will sputter and die. I don't think it's the ignition system, I suspect the fuel system is to blame. Whenever I try to restart the tractor, the carburetor starts dripping fuel, so I tapped it with a screwdriver handle because I thought it was the float getting stuck, but that does nothing. Am I looking to take the carburetor completely apart and clean it? Will that solve the problem?
Sometimes it will try and start and it will sputter as if it's firing only every few cylinders and then it will die. It's probably the fuel system.

 

[farmallboy15]

Ok if you know you have bad gas in the tractor, drain it, rinse out the tank without the sediment bowl, clean the sediment bowl and lines and rebuild the carb.

 

[RC Brooks]

I would encourage you to rebuild the carb as well. It's a good maintenance item. Even if the float isn't stuck, it could be the float pin/pin seat. For as cheap as they are, I find a carb rebuild is a good investment.

As another thought, we were having trouble starting our 480 case. It would crank but not fire. It had spark, so I assumed it was fuel as it would hit on ether. Anyhow, in the end out of frustration I swapped in a coil from my truck. Fired right up.

 

[Theodore51]

(quoted from post at 18:12:30 08/13/13) I wouldn't buy a new carb, just rebuild the one you have. AND if it hasn't been rebuilt, that'd be a first stop for me. It's relatively cheap and easy. So often crud gets built up. A carb dip works, but recently I've been boiling in a lemon juice solution that works better than the carb dip (at least in my experiences).

Try jumping the starter to see if it moves. It's a quick way to eliminate it as a problem. Assuming it's fine, just grab an ohm meter, start at your ignition and move to the starter relay. At least 3 out of 4 times it's been ground issues for me. You should be able to ohm out all the connections in under an hour. Chances are, you can get them ohmed out in under 30 minutes.

If you aren't familiar with ohm meters and resistance, it's very easy. An internet search will likely yield many tutorials.

I just put a new Pertronix ignition kit in the tractor, and even though I drained all the fuel out through the sediment bowl and cleaned the bowl itself, the tractor still ran with the help of ether. Although now I gave myself another problem, fuel is leaking out of the sediment bowl like nuts. Guess I'll need another gasket kit. If that doesn't fix the tractor running problem, I'll buy a gasket kit and rebuild the carb. The engine seemed to idle a lot smoother this time around, don't know why.