Is a Ford 172 the same as 192

[TinCan]

I am in need of a new cam, for a Ford 4000, with a diesel 172. They do not sell, new, or reground cams, for the diesel.

I have been trying to find out over on the "Ford" side, and have had no luck. I was told to ask you guy's in the tractor pullers.

So I have to but a used diesel cam, which is a "310377" with "diesel" stamped on it. I have a someone with a cam for a industrial 192 diesel, that I can buy. But I can not find out if they are the same engines Or cam.

Is there anyone here that can tell me, yes, or no.


Thanks, Pat

 

[MIKE FRENCH]

I dont know where you looked for a new camshaft but one of my suppliers shows new one in stock for 172 4 cyl diesel
part number FCONN6251A PM me if I can help

 

[VicS]

I am not a Ford expert. But I think a 192
is a 172 without sleeves. Google. Effingham
camshaft regrinders. Effingham Il. He will
grind a newer profile if you want.

 

[TinCan]

My problem is, that the PO messed up the key way in mine, so I can not have it fixed. I've called cam grinders and they tell me they don't fix key ways any more, and to fix the key way & regrind it, would cost more then to buy a new cam. Problem. Ford used the same pn# 310377 on both the gas, and the diesel engines, until '65, when he made both cams the same. Before that the are the same grind, except! the diesel timing was held to a exact timing. Because you can move a dist to anywhere you need it, to be right, but you can not with a injector pump.

All cams that are for sale with the factory part #, say "Not for a diesel" They don't grind them to the diesel spec's, only to the gas, which is to loose.

Which is what's wrong with my cam, the key slot is bad, which makes it 23 degs off, plus there is one lobe wore enough to have to replace, or regrind it.

Thanks, Pat

 

[VicS]

So you just need to degree the gas cam. Not
hard to do with a dial indicator and a 360
deg disk for the crank shaft. You can get
ofset keys. Should be same as a Ford car.

 

[TinCan]

No, It is not the Cam gears that is off, it the dist/pump drive gear made on the cam that is off. If I change the key, it changes the valve timing. Plus it's a press on gear, not a bolt on. Which would mean that you'd have to keep pressing it on, and off, till you got it right.

I just need a good used cam, or one that has a good pump gear, & keyway, & good bearing journals. Then I could have it reground, being it is a diesel cam.

Or to find out if the 192 cam is the same as the 172. Then I'll just buy this cam, install it and be done.

Thanks, Pat

 

[VicS]

Yes thats what you do. Why some motors run
better than others. The other gear would
make no difference at all. Just time your
pump when you are through.

 

[riveroadrat]

(quoted from post at 00:43:46 09/29/18)
No, It is not the Cam gears that is off, it the dist/pump drive gear made on the cam that is off. If I change the key, it changes the valve timing. Plus it's a press on gear, not a bolt on. Which would mean that you'd have to keep pressing it on, and off, till you got it right.

I just need a good used cam, or one that has a good pump gear, & keyway, & good bearing journals. Then I could have it reground, being it is a diesel cam.

Or to find out if the 192 cam is the same as the 172. Then I'll just buy this cam, install it and be done.

Thanks, Pat

I think I get your point now, they could start the distributor gear grinding anywhere on the gas cam but they had to start at a specific point on the diesel cams.

 

[VicS]

Thats what the slots are for in the diesel
pump.

 

[TinCan]

What do you mean by " the slots are for in the diesel
pump."

Pat

 

[VicS]

You time your diesel pump by getting no1
piston on compression stroke then getting
crank pulley set on like 10 deg before tdc.
Then look at marks in window of pump. If
not lined up twist pump till they are.
(Little plate with 2 screws on side of
pump)

 

[TinCan]

I know how to time a pump, I just didn't understand the "That's what the slots are for"
The timing is 23 degrees. The gear that drives the pump has 12 teeth, one every 30 degrees. If you at 15 degrees off, you can not move the pump near that, to match up the timing marks. With mine, with the bad key way, it was 23 degrees off, and I could not get the marks near timed right, even if I moved the gear a tooth either way. There is not that much movement in it, pump hit's the block.

That is why I need a diesel cam, and not a gas cam. They are the same profile, but the pump & dist gear are not in the same place (Timed to the lobes). You can use a diesel cam in a gas, but you can't use a gas cam, in a diesel. It won't time right. Ford fixed this problem in '65, Mines a '63.

I want the right cam, not have to make it work.

Pat

 

[VicS]

I give! But if there are just 10 teeth on
the cam. And they are just on there random.
It can't be off but 1/2 a tooth so that
makes 20. 20 divided into 360 is 18 degrees
off max. And if it has more teeth will be
off less. I think will work fine. Opinions
are like belly buttons, Everybody has one.
Have a good day Vic

 

[TinCan]

VicS,
I do thank you for trying to help with my cam.

I have been working all spring & summer, trying to find out why I could not get the timing marks to line up. I have had people tell me what they thought was the problem, and I tried, all of them, with no luck. I have had my injector pump apart, and sent parts of it cross country to have checked out, because they thought for sure it was my pump. But nope, it all checked out good. Everything to do with the pump timing checked out good. I now know more about a injector pump, then I thought I'd ever need to know, and how to adjust the pressures. I have had it apart more times then I can remember.

I had a guy that was a early Ford tractor mechanic come over and checked the pump, and the engine out. It came down to I had to pull the engine, because you can't pull the cam gear, and reinstall the gear with the cam in the engine. When I tried to get the gear of, which was much tighter then it should have been to press off with heat. Then I found that the engine was rebuilt, and the cam was reused with the key way bad.

That's when I found out that the cam's are different, and a bunch of Ford diesel mechanics have had trouble with the engines, found out you can't use a gas cam, it won't time to run right, IF you can get it to start, with it.

I have two long threads in the Ford section on here, about trying to fix it my tractor. I bought this tractor not running, and was told it ran good, that just been sitting for that past 15 years.

I normally don't believe anyone that say's it's a rebuilt engine, or it runs great, I just can't start it because the battery is dead. But I got it for a good price, and got it realizing that I had to work on it. But I never thought I was going to have this much trouble finding out what was wrong, to fix it.

That's why after working on it all spring, and summer, till now. I want the right cam, not something close, or one to make right. If I took the rear tires off right now, no one would know what it is.

Thanks, Pat

 

[Welding man]

I have got a 4000 in my shop right now that I feel I am going to have the same problem. It would not stay in time. I sent the pump and had it rebuilt and it runs great at idle and at full throttle but anywhere else it is terrible. We about gave up on it. One day I pulled the pump back off and checked the pump drive gear to camshaft backlash and low and behold it had a quarter of a turn. Pulled it out and the teeth on the cam gear are worn down to a knife edge. I'm also looking for a cam.

 

[VicS]

I understand your problem. Thanks for
explaining. But you can move the lines a
hole. But that would be 45 deg the other
way. Then would need new slots in pump. You
are talking to a guy who just looked at a
adapter to put a P inline pump on a Allis.
Vic

 

[VicS]

I understand your problem. Thanks for
explaining. But you can move the lines a
hole. But that would be 45 deg the other
way. Then would need new slots in pump. You
are talking to a guy who just looked at a
adapter to put a P inline pump on a Allis.
Vic

 

[TinCan]

You have me confused about the slots you keep talking about. Are you talking about the gear mesh between the cam, and the pump drive gear. Or the slot in the top of the drive gear shaft, that a dog on the bottom of the pump drive shaft, which drives the governor/ pressure pump in the injector pump? There is no slot that can be changed.

This a one fit only pump setup, it only is on a '58-'64 Ford 4cyl tractor, and it's their only vertical mount pump. All others are horizontal mounting, which is a whole different animal. It is a Stanadyne pump, which changed to Roosa-Master, type - DBVGCC429-4C

Pat

 

[TinCan]

Welding man,
Good luck in finding a good one, they are out there. I just bought one cheap, and I was told it does not need to ground. I will see about that, after I get it, I will mic it then to be sure. There is a guy over in the Ford section that told me he has a grindable cam. He did not say it had to be, he just has had sitting with his other parts.

I sent him a e-mail about it, but he has not replied to me yet. He posted with pictures of it, in my thread "Wanted to buy, used"

Pat