Is it necessary to run lead additives in these old engin

[Poonie]

Had thought of dumping some of that lead additive in the fuel of my cub, since it was designed back when leaded fuel was used. Do you think it's really required? I've heard some old car guys say they don't use it as long as you're not driving all that much. Does this hold true with these old tractors as well? I do plan on using ethanol free gas as it's pretty easy to find around here.

This post was edited by Poonie on 10/30/2023 at 09:03 am.

 

[old]

No need for it and the stuff you can buy doesn't even have any lead in it any how

 

[Janicholson]

old is correct. Engines and sparkplugs last longer today because lead is gone. My tractors and 51 GMC and 57 CJ3b Jeep have done much better on no lead fuel. Jim

 

[redforlife]

I agree with old. The additives are
likewise lead free. Why buy a lead free
additive??

A lifelong farmer once told me that years
ago he began buying an additive for his gas
burning tractor. And one day he was reading
the label on the bottle, and learned that
the additive was mostly made up of diesel
fuel. After that, he quit buying the
additive and just put a squirt of diesel in
with gas when he filled the tank.

I don't use anything. Just go with the lead
free gas.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Not only do you not need the "lead additive," real lead wasn't even required on the old Farmalls. As I understand it they always had hardened valve seats.

Not only do you not need leaded gas, but unless you have a history of poor quality gas in your area, regular old 10% ethanol 87 octane is just fine in your Cub.

Just yesterday I pulled out the bedding chopper in the barn. It hasn't been run since about March 1st 2021. That's over 2-1/2 years for those playing along on the home game. Opened the gas tank expecting varnish. Smelled fine. Two pulls and the 390cc Honda was running. 87 octane, 10% ethanol.

 

[Tim in New York]

If I think of it, I sometimes add a bit of 2 cycle oil from an old quart bottle I have around for that purpose. Theory I read years ago, probably here, is that it will help lube the top end of the engine.

 

[the tractor vet]

In one word NO . all that stuff is SNAKE OIL . what is important is the octane rating . Run the good stuff not the cheap stuff . many on here disagree with me on this BUT NOT one of them is a mechanic / engine builder and made his living doing so . gas from back in the days when these tractor were NEW octane was higher burned COOLER and LONGER . Yes lead was added to boost octane back then as a cheap way of boosting octane . Ammaco did NOT use lead in there gas and it ran fine in what ever , mom's grocery getter or Jr. hot rod . Old reg gas at the stations was 95 octane high test was 105 or better elcheapo farm gas was 93 and that stuff would make and old Chevy 6 cylinder ping and knock . Gulf Tane and Sunoco 190 was the garbage gas of the day . Today lawn and garden, chain saws all recommend nothing less then 90 straight gas . Your Cub does not have electronic fuel injection nor the computer tied into knock detectors and adjust ing. timing and fuel delivery in micro seconds .

 

[the tractor vet]

back during my play days of hot cars and fast wimmen i either ran Sunnoc 240 in my road runner on the street that was minimum with no pre ing knock that one was a 10.5 to 1 my 61 Ford with the built 390 and the 13.5 -1 would run on the streets with the 250 but come Thursday evening the dial got flipped to the 260 for up coming friday night when we let it all hang out . That was the race fuel for the day . If ya needed more then ya flipped the dial to the blank spot when you were chasen the money that got you up over 112 . As becoming a Ford mechanic and getting suckered into med and heavy duty truck work back in the day you may find this hard to swallow but them OLD LOW compression Med and heavy gas trucks needed 105 or better gas . All but Sohio Boron with valve cleaner , it did a super fine job on exhaust valves used in the med and heavy gas trucks . I did a ton of valve jobs on the 391' 477 and 534 . one has never lived till ya pull the 477 and 534 heads off and N series by yourself . And at this Ford dealership all engine work was done in house , three of us also did the machine work every bit of it . doing this type of work you see the affects of fuel issues and oil related problems . The two drag cars they ran those engines started life as bare new blocks and heads that i put together . Yea i worked for Ford and drove a Plymouth . I did not run either the Road Runner nor the Duster more then one time down the strip just did it once with each to just see what they could do but i did drive them hard . the Duster was a 340 and it ran mostly on Ammaco hightest as they called it WHITE gas no lead it was 107 i put a 168000 miles on that 340 in short order the Road Runner got the bag run off it and it had 167 and change on it when i got talked into the Duster . I saw no real difference in plug life between the Road Runner and the Duster , they both got new plugs and points at around 10000 miles . Now today with hotter engine temps wider spark gaps hotter ing coils and better spark plugs and materials i can not say just the gas has anything to do with it . I know that the 03 Dodge durango with the OLD IRON BLOCK 360 if you don't change plugs sooner then 40000 miles she has a hissy fit and that happens all at once and ya limp it home and find NOTHING left of the plugs . While gas was more affordable it ran better on a better grade of gas then on the 87 and on the 87 it got 15 MPG while on the good stuff it would do 17 around town and 18.5 out on the road . The 88 F 350 4X4 cab and chassis i ran with the 460 five speed with 4.10's i ran hightest in it when gas was 85 cents a gallon and got decent gas mileage out if it due some tweaking . Most did not know that the 460 still ran the old cam grind they just layed back cam timing with the gears , change cam gears and change ing timing and bam more pony power and better gas mileage on the good stuff if ya want to call this good stuff. . Go look this up on what gas octane was required on the 460-560 gas tractor then into the 06-56 . old m's and such yea they will run on just about anything unless you start upping for more power . more power ya need a better energy drink .

 

[DeltaRed]

Snake oil;junk;garbage. A waste of money.If you are really concerned about 'lubrication' put a 'splash'(or even a shop glass full)of ATF;Marvel mystery;diesel,or even plain old motor oil in each tank.

 

[rustred]

This is a useless post , because whatever u do ,!add or
dont add stuff to the gas u will never know the actual
results. U need to take 2 engines exactly the same run
them exactly the same side by side put on exactly the
same hrs on each one then. Say maybe 3-4 thousand hrs.
Them tear them down and measure both engines
components. Valve stems, valve guides, valve seats,
valve faces, cylinder wear, piston wear , ring wear ,
basically everything that wears in the combustion area.
Plus use the exactly the same oil grade and brand. U
cant just sit in your chair and give a proper answer. Its
kind of a proven fact already that the more upper cylinder
lube u use the less wear on components. Plus on
automotive engines getting rid of carburators has
extended plug life just by that alone. Carburetor causes
engine wear also. Also some oils are better than other
oils. That makes a difference also. Using the proper
grade of oil makes a difference also.
Plus there is also the air cleaners and how often they are serviced. So if I are using marvel mystery oil or snake oil which are the same oils only different colors , its not a bad thing as that is what they are used for.

 

[Brendon-KS]

The octane rating of the fuel used for the Nebraska tests is right there in the reports, both the Research and the Motor numbers. The modern octane rating is the average of the two so it is easy to convert to the comparable number we see on the pump today. Here is the modern R+M/2 rating of the gasoline from several IH tractor reports: 1947 Cub - 74 (just this number since the R and M numbers weren't listed in the reports back then), 1956 Cub - 84.6, 1957 450 - 85.0, 1958 560 - 87.0, 1963 706 and 806 - 88.4, 1966 706 - 88.1, 1972 766 - 87.0. It should also be noted that these tests have always been run with company representatives present to ensure that their tractor is operating properly and that the correct fuels and oils are used. These are just the documented facts that nobody's opinions or beliefs can change.

 

[used red MN]

My question is how are you going to use the tractor?
Are you going to use it anywhere near what the original
farmer owner used it? Probably 1 - 8 hours a day 6
days of the week; probably at least used like that 100 -
150 plus days of the year doing whatever farming tasks
needed done. Unless you are the great exception, I
doubt you will come close. So bumping this off what
rustred said you will never come close to even being
able to tell if the wear on the valves etc. was because
you needed valve lube or not. And BTW, you do not
need any fancy gas for a Cub engine with 6.5 to 1
compression. Run the cheapest grade they have and
sleep well.

 

[the tractor vet]

Well i think you need to read in the OWNERS MANUAL as it is stated in there in plan english . 460-560 89 octane R+M=2 ad for 06 thru 56 93 . I can sow you a collection of new pistons that really did not like 87 and around here we still have a bunch of them still working . My one customer has the 460 gas his dad bought new and a whole file on repairs since new with all the burnt valves the loss of power the list goes on . I was the last to do the valve job and solved the age old problem , that was oh i don't know 15 years back solved his loss of power , that took some doing he complained that going down the hill with a full spreader it ran fine but coming back up the hill she would act like it was running out of gas back fire and die and not want to turn over for 15- 20 min. she was sorta locked up . Got him to up his gas and the problem went away They had the same problem while under the picker and they moved the picker over onto the 400 . Five years ago he complained about his new to him I H S model grain truck carrying on on the hills and again kept sayen running out of fuel , well parts for I H med. duty trucks are vary hard to come by and they do not make a fuel pump anymore and after market ones they clain for a 404 engine is wrong the pump lever will not even touch the fuel pump cam sooo we went with a electric same problem , did a tune up check timing redid the carb and again no listing for a carb kit . BUT that Holley carb is the same carb used on some Mopars and i got that fixed still loss of power on the hills got him to once again up the gas problem was gone . I have been at this game for probably longer then you have . And for the past what now 35 years worked on I H tractors . We have fought the gas issue since the mid 80's . like i said we still have a ton of gas tractors still running . I had issue with my Massey 300 gas combine with it running really hot just and old simple Chrysler 225 slant six , know that engine well from my days as a Chrysler mechanic with master certification . Did you know that the water pump used on and air conditioned car from back then moves more water . welp i changed that to a a/c car water pump No change still running hot had already done the rad . check timing nope that was not it , checked for head gskt leakage , nope that was not it . what brought the engine temp down was the gas . I ran all gas , why because i could buy them cheaper and for my hobby farming they were fine myself i never had and issue with my tractors because they got fed the same gas as my pick up and my pick up at the time was not factory stock as it came , the garbage 360 V8 lasted five days from new and was replaced with a new in the crate Ford 428 S./CJ . As one of the org. Frod Drag club member when Ford got out of racing they offered to member the ready to run engines made for racing and i bought a few of them . the 428 is of the FE FAMILY same as the 360 just a lot more getty up and go and as a 11 to 1 engine it wanted prime rib for gas and while filling the pick up with out the hassle of two pumps running when the truck was full the hose went into my nurse tank and my 460 and 706 drank from that tank . That was before i bought the combine and i had long since replaced the fun truck with a one with a 460 and i just put reg in it for a while and i was feeding the tractor with 93 and the truck with 89 . The combine i got cheap with and tried the 87 . While at a sale out west i bought two 110 gallon truck tanks and while i was fueling the truck i noticed a pump that read Farm gas and man it was cheap and that gas was oh wait 92 octane i got 220 gallon for the combine as i was just getting into corn on the first tank engine temp on a warm late sept day was in the low 80's the engine temp was no longer running 220 it was running 185 HUMM when that gas was gone i fed the massey 93 and now we are down to 180 . later on after spending money to a lab to test one gallon of gas out of a farm tank after a new engine with 30 plus hours on it melted and seized all 6 pistons and on inspection all the damage was done above the top rings where the piston dia. is at it's smallest by .019-.020 then the skirt area , then dd in the .004 skirt to wall the top of those pistons swelled more then .025 . I knew it was fuel related and to find out we had one gallon out of the farm tank tested , we never told the lab who's gas it was , they told us the told us what that 87 octane gas did at peak combustin , It super heated .and this egg head chemist explained the why toos and what fors . we change gas and got along just fine for a lot of years , till they changed the gas once again and on the first load to two farms two 706's went down in two days with the same problem melted pistons and scored liners .

 

[Poonie]

Thanks for the info fellas. I kind of figured the lead additives were nothing but a gimmick, but I wasn't exactly sure. I do still plan to run ethanol free gas as it is 89 octane and less prone to eat hoses and seals like ethanol gas. I could run 100 octane low lead AV gas, as I'm also a pilot and own my own aircraft and have access to it.. However, that stuff is over $6 bucks a gallon so doubt I'll be doing that. Thanks again for the info.

This post was edited by Poonie on 10/31/2023 at 08:42 am.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

This is a FARMALL CUB, with materials and compression more akin to H's and M's. A far cry from a 460, 560, 656, 706, 806 gas.

You do NOT need the high-octane "hot rod" or "airplane" gas as Cubs are not prone to detonation, pinging, or whatever, like the 6-cylinders.

 

[John M]

You should know by now that there are thos e here who believe that yo MUST run 93 octane in everything, car, truck, lawnmower, tractor, EVERYTHING, and that they
are the only mechanic on the face of the earth so you should listen and do exactly what they say. My favorite excuse was Youre not working it hard enough if you
havent burned up the engine already and a close second is By the book and then admits to tinkering with the timing.

 

[grandpa Love]

My goodness, tractor vet has provided an
hour of reading about anything and
everything except a FARMALL CUB.... which
is what the question was about. I actually
use Cubs, several of them, I use them a
lot. I use regular, cheap, ethanol blend
pump gas. I have zero issues. It's doesn't
eat up carbs and fuel lines. It doesn't
ping or run terrible. But do what ever
you want.

 

[grandpa Love]

Oh no! I actually agree with Rustred.... lol.

 

[Jim Becker]

Reading the Owner's Manual is a reasonable suggestion. A rambling reply based on not reading it is less helpful.

Cub Owner's Manuals prior to about '64 put more emphasis on using clean fuel and don't quote a specific octane. The '64 manual says:
"International Harvester gasoline burning
engines are specifically designed for use with
regular grade gasoline having a 90 minimum
octane rating - Research Method (approxi-
mately 84 Motor Method)."

As previously noted, that calculates to 87 as the pumps are labeled, the much-hated cheap stuff.

 

[560Dennis]

If you ever tear it open take block to machine shop for cleaning ,new freeze plugs,valve guides and new valve seats like these , you be set
for good.
Just what I suggest , put a link to a valve seat like what you want in future.
https://goodson.com/products/nickel-chrome-seats?_pos=1&_sid=66c04f6cc&_ss=r
Have fun