JD 40 6v

[alc609]

Need help, I have a JD 40 that I like to use. But ever time I go to use it the 6v system just makes it hard to crank and worse in the winter. It's a + ground. Other than lights and coil, would I have to change the generator? Been told by a couple people that the generator will still produce enough power to keep battery charged. And would I hook 12v battery + ground? Or can that be changed?

 

[bill mart]

I don't think a 6 volt generator as it came from the factory will keep the 12 volt battery charged.
past article on this

 

[K Effective]

Keep the 6v system. Check, fill and charge the battery. Upgrade all of the cables to VERY large ones-my local JD shop made mine (zero gauge) while I waited. Make sure the ground is super clean to the block. Fresh tank of gas this time of year. Mine starts fine in any temps now.

 

[Lee B]

Old 6 volt generator will make 12 volts, but will struggle to do so. It only made 7 to 9 amps to begin with at 6 volts, expect a bit less at 12 volts like 5 to 7. It will take a good deal of running time (an hour minimum) in order to charge back up with either system and maybe this is the actual problem? One can upgrade the field coils and armature to 12 volts but you are still at 7 to 9 amps even with this pricey approach. I don't have a source for these upgrade parts, only read about it in another forum.

You will need a 12 volt regulator though. Delco remy 1118779 seems to have a good number of hits at eBay and other sites and is a bolt on 12 volt replacement for your 6 volt one now which is Delco remy 1118303 for general information and comparison price shopping.

Generators with matching voltage regulators for same just don't care about which grounding system you have or want to use - you only need to be sure to polarize the generator just BEFORE you start it up. This is the method that will change the generator to charge the system you actually have, the regulator just doesn't care in either case. I see one seller on eBay has printed on the regulator cover 'positive ground' and that particular issue is not valid what so ever. Mechanical regulators have NEVER been sensitive to positive or negative ground issue - why is this guy mislabeling his stock?

In changing voltage you will need to change lights, but don't need a new coil if you buy a ballast resistor and install it in the hot wire between the key and the coil. I can recommend the 3 ohm, 12 volt pertronix flame thrower coil sold at this site Part No 40511 and this would be a drop in replacement that doesn't need the above ballast resistor, it does pack a bit more spark than stock coils do. Night and day difference in my experience.
<a href="http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/40511_Coil-High-Performance-Black-12-Volt-Oil-Filled_1502.htm" target="_new">3 ohm, 12 volt, Pertronix Flame thrower coil</a>

You should reverse the leads on the coil and ammeter if you go with negative ground system. And you can have it any way you want it, but first you have make up your mind and say what that is, so advice can be correct for the grounding system you want to run with. It's not really an important issue at the end of the day, us being on the same page as you are is much more important.

Going with today's standard negative ground 12 volt alternator is pretty cheap compared to even just a new regulator for 12 volts on your generator. $70 will get it done for a rebuilt Delco Si-10 alternator with built in regulator at almost any parts store and you will have 55 amps of charging current. $40 will get you the 12 volt regulator for your current generator which will always be struggling to keep the battery charged. Some won't go here because they want to keep it original as if the tractor itself is 'needle in a haystack' rare and or otherwise forever more ruined by addons like an alternator.

Using 12 volts to start your tractor will make a noticeable difference in how fast the engine cranks over. The starter can take it fine if you keep cranking time within reason, just as you also need to do with 6 volts.

Please charge your batteries first before polarizing and/or starting the tractor. This lessens the load put on the charging system - no one would start a cold engine and mash the throttle to the floorboard, why is it OK to do the same thing to a charging system? It isn't OK and never was. Failing to charge a healthy battery first can and does weld cutout points on new regulators. New batteries should be charged first in any event.

 

[RLA]

I agree with K Effective.. Go through your system. Clean connections,& Grounds, check & update if needed your
6 V generator charging system don't go pickup up a automotive replacement 12V battery cable to use 6v system.
Make sure the bushing in the starting motor are not loose. I own M, B & Old Model A, that will start below Zero
ALWAYS. All are still the Factory 6V system. All have working lights & all 3 have a High Charge position on the
on the Light switch. Install a 12V battery will lead to starter & starter drive issues down the road.

 

[teddy52food]

Regulators are polarity sensitive because of the material used in the points. They will work either way but won't last as long if wrong. A generator is made to charge the battery. The regulator is there to protect both the battery and the generator. It is not necessary to charge the battery first.

 

[buickanddeere]

As previously stated the 40 won't start because of a fault in the engine , ignition system or fuel system. 12V is a bandaid fix on the symptom instead of repairing the cause .
One 10F Cbristmas Day we were trying out the new hand crank for Dad's 40. He was on the seat watching . As I inserted the crank to check for engagement, clearance and to avoid scraping off the fresh paint.
Towards the end of just one very slow rotation there was a sudden and startling pop and snort with the 40 firing up. Father had thought that I was trying to start the engine so he turned on the ignition and pulled the choke .
It doesn't take a whole lot to start a gas Dubuque if it has air fuel and spark.

 

[Mike M]

I even had a 440 crawler loader that started fine in the cold on 6 volt. It even had to turn a very large front mounted hydraulic pump. Everything has to be in good shape. Make sure your starter is good too. Only draw back I had with 6 volt batteries was a short life. After about 3 years I'd have to replace them in the crawler. I could then use it for a few more in something that turned over easier like a H or B.

 

[Lee B]

Nonsense to first point. Please enlighten me to the name of said material that is polarity sensitive found in relay points and I'll find it in an AC relay for you. Not even remotely possible in other words. Second point, it's only advise, high current flow will weld the cutout relay points together leading to repeats of same event even when current is no longer excessive. If you don't believe it or care about that, that's fine with me. Never did I suggest it was necessary to charge the battery first, it's only the smart and safe thing to do.

 

[M-MAN]

You done went and opened a can of worm's! lol

First off in MY opinion 6v systems are crap. That was true 50 years ago when I was pushing, pulling, and rolling them to crank and it's still true today. No matter what folks tell you there's a good reason 6v went away decades ago. EVERYTHING has to be PERFECT for it to work. The real world ain't that way.

Now that that's out of the way I'll try to answer your post. The generator on there will not handle a 12v battery. It barely handled a 6v. A generator shop can convert it to 12v but it will be expensive. You can leave it + ground or change it but the regulator you buy has to be for the ground you want to use. Some will work either way. I prefer a 12v coil with no ballast required but you can use your's with an external ballast. Any old Delco 12v genny you can put on there will work if there's a junkyard close by. An alternator would be much cheaper but you lose the look.

BTW - The reason a 6v Dubuque will crank so easy with a hand crank is the coil voltage is staying at 6v instead of dropping to 4.5v like it does when you pull the starter knob. Anything below 5 is hit and miss.

 

[teddy52food]

I don't know how old you are, but 40 - 50 years ago the regulators were all marked for + or - ground. The cut-out points are designed to handle the current the regulator is set for. Should be no welding of the contacts.

 

[buickanddeere]

Probably closer to 6.5V. With too low/too small battery, too small cables, high resistance connections and the ground anywhere than on a starter mounting bolt . The tractor is going to have VD and not have enough spark to jump the plug gap.

 

[Rusty wheel]

I converted my 40 to 12 volt Neg Grd using a one wire alternator and I'm very glad I did. Very simple to do. 12 volt bulbs in lights and volt meter in dash instead of amp gauge. Twelve volt batteries are a lot easier to find. Tractor starts great without choke. Starter will be fine unless U have to crank on the tractor a long time to start it.

 

[LarrySTN]

Lee, you are right, there is nothing inside the regulator that cares what the polarity is.

 

[teddy52food]

Field control points have different materials to cut down pitting on one side & build up on the other. The old regulators were marked for polarity & lasted a long time. Maybe that is why the new ones don't last long.

 

[buckeye al]

Agreed. The field current control points are by design and function constantly arcing just like a tiny welding arc! They are constantly vibrating or "pulsing" more or less field current to raise or lower the generator's output current as they work to maintain the voltage standard for the charging system. Often their failure is the result of the shunt resistor being open. When the shunt resistor fails, current in the arc across the regulator points increases. Most of us do or have handled the stinger of an arc welder & if you have, you know what happens when you increase the arc current. More arc current means more heat! Well that shunt resistor lowers the "NORMAL" current through the regulator points which makes them run cooler because the arc is less intense. This greatly extends the life of the points/regulator and increases the stability of the charging system voltage and current.

Anybody ever see a tractor's ammeter constantly jumping up and down waving back and forth? They usually calm down when you slow the engine or turn on the lights don't they. Sometimes this is caused by "parts switching" where the generator & the regulator are not designed for each other and are not compatible. Sometimes this waving ammeter condition is caused by an open shunt resistor. That's the thing on the bottom of the regulator that looks like a match stick with fine wire wound on it. What you're seeing on the ammeter is the solid opening and closing of the regulator points as they work overtime with a higher than normal current to control the system voltage. The points are likely burned, dirty and sticking because they've been at this "pulsing" task with too high a current for some time & that regulator (even if it's the correct one for the generator) is likely in it's death throes.

As to the metalugical aspect mentioned...... Some regulators were (and some still are) very definitely polarity sensitive! Otherws don't care. It all has to do with the metals used in these breaker points. Some (not all) are designed to handle current in only one direction! They're designed just like the nonconsummable electrodes used on plasma cutters and the rods used for DC arc welder cutting. If you ever used a DC arc welder, you know straight or reverse makes a HUGE difference depending on the electrode's metallic makeup! Some metals just don't like to have electrons leave their surfaces. Some metals don't care. All this is exactly why some regulators ARE sensitive to the direction of the current through them and some are not.

Soooo, this is one of those discussions where nobody's really wrong.

Old John T has said on this site many times... "the genny don't care which polarity she's hooked to".

Hope that helps.

Later.

 

[Lee B]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Larry, I know full well I'm dead right here.

No, no, and no. The reason they don't last as long anymore is because back then they put enough platinum into the point contact alloy to outlast the paint job. Today it's all about making the part just barely good enough to not have to replace it outright. That's why they don't last anymore. Bean counters want to use cheaper semi-precious metals (nickel) in their point contact alloys instead of the pricey but proven real deal. There is no maybe to it at all, built in obsolescence is a fact of life today.

Build up on one side and pit on the other is an issue that exists only on ignition points when the capacitor used does not match the inductance of the coil. A build up on one side is an indication that more capacitance is needed. A pit developed on that same side then means there is too much capacitance being used. This does not apply when there is no capacitor at all and polarity isn't the issue in the first place. Another fabrication of yours to sound smart when you don't know electronics in the first place. I do, since very young too. Computer assembly language is just one of many hobbies of mine just to show who you are knocking heads with here.

It's a complete fabrication to suggest that all voltage regulators back then were marked as to positive ground or negative ground. I was there at the cusp of that age and would have seen at least one come in for work on it, you do not have a leg to stand on here. You will have to provide proof instead of gassing on about another fabrication.

I was using relays as toys over 50 years ago at the age of 9. Been spinning wrenches all my adult life since the mid 70s and have only seen the eBay fool putting positive ground on his regulators with a green ink hand stamp and had to mention what a fool he was running off half of his own customers (the negative ground crowd) with that misinformation. [b:654c4848f0]NO[/b:654c4848f0] one else is so stupid as to do this as far as I have [b:654c4848f0]EVER[/b:654c4848f0] known about.

The contacts used are identical in material because to use two different materials would mean extra care religiously taken as to separation of the two contact types from the point of manufacture thru the entire assembly process and this alone would add such a tremendous overhead cost and tragic risk to the entire process as to be tossed in the trash can every time it was ever suggested. Since even your theory that existing contact materials that will last if only the polarity is correct for them is a complete fabrication too, the option for doing the above simply doesn't exist in the first place. Since they are [b:654c4848f0]ALWAYS[/b:654c4848f0] exactly the same material (whatever it is being used at that time) - there is no polarity issue to them and NEVER has been nor ever will be the case.

 

[M-MAN]

Guy's we need to step back take a breath and remember we all all human. We make mistakes and disagree even with ourself's(at least I do). Please don't take offence.

Here's a page from an original Delco Remy service manual. Wish I could post it all.

 

[teddy52food]

Thanks for the info. I knew I was right all along.

 

[Lee B]

Thanks for the attempt M-Man but a salesman's diatribe just won't cut the mustard for me. No one is mad or offended first off, I just find it too silly to believe hogwash and in general I'm never in the mood to suffer that for long. I wonder what kind of armatures the ones made for either service have since this part of the subject was completely disregarded. And I'm the only one to notice that omission?

And by that glaring omission then, this is proof (somehow) that it's only the two ways possible always and never can it be that the either option exists? Nonsense.

Voltage regulators are never grouped into two types or even three as they should be according to the silliness found in this service bulletin. You ask for one and you get one - ONE. One serves all, they do not provide versions of the same regulator for positive ground nor negative ground, nor BOTH at any location other than the rare eBay fool. And it simply can't be both ways people, use your brains. You can't say it is this way and then the entire world doesn't have a manufacturing thru sales system in place to allow that way to function. The contacts are the exact same material, they always will be and they always have been. The material itself is changed depending on the quality factor, but the two sides are always the same. Polarity simply doesn't matter then with a mechanical regulator.

No other relay contact is polarity sensitive either and these outnumber voltage regulators by unimaginable numbers. No similar attempts at such polarity silliness in those applications leads me to believe this subject is pure hogwash. Were you ever offered the choice for positive ground or negative ground points when you asked for a set of ignition points before? I thought not. Because it just doesn't matter and never did.

If they were polarity sensitive, the world would be overrun with such choices and one would think a link to one could easily be produced and yet we have nothing but continuous hogwash. The one off eBay fool's link doesn't count - I'm the one that told you. It's your turn to show me a delco remy that says it's positive ground only. Put up or shut up. Rubber stamps and sharpie scrawlings will be laughed at.

One service bulletin proves nothing except that these service bulletins are written by know nothing salesmen that are not in charge of anything other than a printer. Show me this aspect on the sales side of Delco remy where the money is made. You can't - in the real world where dollars do the talking it's nothing but vaporware. The issue is plain as day non-existent, how you can ignore this reality is beyond all common sense. They don't sell them this way - they just DON'T. Engvall would say then at this point - 'Here's your sign'.

You have a rare find there M-Man, thanks again for that. I'd like to know if any repeats of the hogwash can be found again. I have seen such nonsense suggestions issued from a company before in it's service bulletins though it's usually just one instance and that guy gets 'promoted' to another job real quick like. Wico has one that suggests that the 'new' Alinco5 rotors are so strong it never needs to be remagnetized, while everybody else is selling and using Alinco5 remagnetizers to welcome and grateful customers. It's a laughable situation in all manner of ways. In the real world, Alinco5 magnetos (xh1042 for just one example that you might know) respond quite well to remagetization to the delight of the owner and contact points are never polarity sensitive.

 

[M-MAN]

Lee, If you won't believe the manufacturer I can't help you. They invented them decades ago so I think they knew their products better than us. I do have other Delco Remy service manuals. The same info can be found in old Ford and Deere service manuals as well. I reckon they were all snookered. This pic is of an old delco remy voltage regulator.

 

[teddy52food]

I have some NOS regulators in the cabinet from years past. The 6 volt Ford tractor one is marked for positive ground. The 12 volt Ford is marked for negative ground, as is the 12 volt mopar. There is one marked for + or - ground & one that is not marked at all but it is a rebuilt regulator.

 

[Bob]

WOW, LeeB!

Delco was well known for their service documentation and serviceman training and you declare it "hogwash".

The info about contact point material was put forth in MANY service manuals of that "golden age of mechanical regulators" and you are better informed than the official manufacturers' documentation.

WOW, just WOW!

 

[souNdguy]

Bob, I agree.

I have the Bulletin after that one. 1R116, and it says the same thing, to prevent point arc/erosion / deposition, make sure you get the regulator matched to the polarity it is meant to be used upon.. etc.

I can post it as well, but the paragraph reads much the same as the one above.

 

[JMOR]

Another bit of factual support info for those of you actually in the know vs the one and only almighty know it all, eat up with himself computer programmer who relegates all others to the world of ignorant.

 

[Lee B]

It's not quite like that at all JMOR, it seems one voice of common sense is up against the crowd of stubborn exaggerators and outright fabricators of reality as I see it. Just WOW that if one can without taking it to a personal insult level. I'll call a fabrication a fabrication, I won't insult anything but your exaggerations here. Put another way, you won't get me to wallow in your slop with you.

P or N ehh? That wouldn't be there just for additional informational purposes would it? It's now a requirement instead of just general information of intended use. It's required use now just because you have redefined the very reason they put such stuff on there. I have to buy it first and then find out what I gots, gee what other nonsense does that remind me of? I have never been asked if I want that regulator in positive ground flavor or negative ground flavor since they only come in one flavor to begin with. Just like ignition points.

No one seems to object to the wrong information presented in these documents as if they came to us from on high. Hows come?

You see the fuse? It's correctly shown as 'Fuse Assembly'. They incorrectly refer to the inboard screw as being connected to the base when it's actually connected to the standard output terminal as would be there on a non-fused regulator. The fuse assembly is then an add on device to a standard regulator terminal. They don't seem to know this much about their own product and that's OK with you? Base screw doesn't exist. Why are they calling it 'the other screw on the base'? It does kinda look like maybe it's connected to the base - could it be that they have only the picture to go by and don't really know up from down about their own product?

I'm thinking their basic level of understanding of voltage regulator internals is on par with the receptionist. You see it in print (with pictures) and text, ignore that entirely, and can only make up personal stuff about me as if that's a valid argument point.

In this document and the other they mention that cutout relay points vibrate. They do not ever, they either don't move at all (defective generator) or they close once to only (maybe) release as the generator slows down at engine shut down. Another fallacy in print by the house of Delco remy and yet no complaints? You seriously buy that nonsense with zero input from your own common sense side that is the only reality? I'm talking about your experience here - you ever seen a cutout relay do anything other than just close at start up and open at shut down? What vibrate are they talking about? It doesn't exist. It's the OTHER set of points that do any vibrating and they do plenty. Just FYI there, wish I could tell these people too - they don't seem to know this much.

I'm so glad someone at Delco remy stamps an N or a P on the base of the regulator and then prevents me from knowing which is there before I buy it. Just curious what they stamp in the base of the regulator for those that work either way? Seems we have some missing information here to me. Again this issue is ignored entirely in this paper too.

It's as if they want to pretend that voltage regulators don't operate with long life with either polarity. And they do - this is the reality. The argument originally stems entirely around this issue of longer life in one polarity VS the other. I contend that this difference in length of life is a fabrication - reality is the only proof I need. They don't make or sell two and/or three versions of the same regulator people. The issue then doesn't really exist beyond a lot of hot air. I just won't worship a lot of hot air, and ya can't make me either. It seems you and the creators of such documents have misinterpreted general informational data as to be a
'carved in stone' requirement for the most part. I'm going to suggest that it just isn't so.

What is the color of the sky in the world you live in? I'm about done with this lunacy people, you can go pretend it's your way if you want, I know better and you all know good and well my stance in the issue by now. A fabrication will always be a fabrication.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 15:17:03 11/03/15) It's not quite like that at all JMOR, it seems one voice of common sense is up against the crowd of stubborn exaggerators and outright fabricators of reality as I see it. Just WOW that if one can without taking it to a personal insult level. I'll call a fabrication a fabrication, I won't insult anything but your exaggerations here. Put another way, you won't get me to wallow in your slop with you.

P or N ehh? That wouldn't be there just for additional informational purposes would it? It's now a requirement instead of just general information of intended use. It's required use now just because you have redefined the very reason they put such stuff on there. I have to buy it first and then find out what I gots, gee what other nonsense does that remind me of? I have never been asked if I want that regulator in positive ground flavor or negative ground flavor since they only come in one flavor to begin with. Just like ignition points.

No one seems to object to the wrong information presented in these documents as if they came to us from on high. Hows come?

You see the fuse? It's correctly shown as 'Fuse Assembly'. They incorrectly refer to the inboard screw as being connected to the base when it's actually connected to the standard output terminal as would be there on a non-fused regulator. The fuse assembly is then an add on device to a standard regulator terminal. They don't seem to know this much about their own product and that's OK with you? Base screw doesn't exist. Why are they calling it 'the other screw on the base'? It does kinda look like maybe it's connected to the base - could it be that they have only the picture to go by and don't really know up from down about their own product?

I'm thinking their basic level of understanding of voltage regulator internals is on par with the receptionist. You see it in print (with pictures) and text, ignore that entirely, and can only make up personal stuff about me as if that's a valid argument point.

In this document and the other they mention that cutout relay points vibrate. They do not ever, they either don't move at all (defective generator) or they close once to only (maybe) release as the generator slows down at engine shut down. Another fallacy in print by the house of Delco remy and yet no complaints? You seriously buy that nonsense with zero input from your own common sense side that is the only reality? I'm talking about your experience here - you ever seen a cutout relay do anything other than just close at start up and open at shut down? What vibrate are they talking about? It doesn't exist. It's the OTHER set of points that do any vibrating and they do plenty. Just FYI there, wish I could tell these people too - they don't seem to know this much.

I'm so glad someone at Delco remy stamps an N or a P on the base of the regulator and then prevents me from knowing which is there before I buy it. Just curious what they stamp in the base of the regulator for those that work either way? Seems we have some missing information here to me. Again this issue is ignored entirely in this paper too.

It's as if they want to pretend that voltage regulators don't operate with long life with either polarity. And they do - this is the reality. The argument originally stems entirely around this issue of longer life in one polarity VS the other. I contend that this difference in length of life is a fabrication - reality is the only proof I need. They don't make or sell two and/or three versions of the same regulator people. The issue then doesn't really exist beyond a lot of hot air. I just won't worship a lot of hot air, and ya can't make me either. It seems you and the creators of such documents have misinterpreted general informational data as to be a
'carved in stone' requirement for the most part. I'm going to suggest that it just isn't so.

What is the color of the sky in the world you live in? I'm about done with this lunacy people, you can go pretend it's your way if you want, I know better and you all know good and well my stance in the issue by now. A fabrication will always be a fabrication.

unny, Lee Boy, that while others present facts/evidence, that all you have is blah, blah, blather. No supporting evidence at all! None whatsoever!! You need to do a little research, but being that you are apparently incapable of learning or receiving input, only spouting your own highly self regarded opinions, we all give up as as the illustration shows, throw up our hands. I do compliment your dress, though.

 

[nlastovi]

I'll paraphrase Sayre's law here as it seems that this level of passion over a voltage regulator astonishing.

"The emotions are so high because the stakes are so small".

If bickering has to happen (and perhaps it is important that it does; I don't know), surely we can find something every so slightly more important? Like the best oil, or spark plug, or paint color?