JD 4430 - Water Circulation Question

[Joe Stewart]

This 4430 has been sitting in the seller's yard for about the last 15 years without being started. The price was right so I bought it. The water pump was frozen, so I removed it for rebuild. I spun the motor by putting a pry bar on the ring gear. The turbo spins by hand. I have not attempted to start it yet. Today I took a pressure washer and sprayed into the thermostat manifold (upper red arrow). I expected the water to travel through the engine and exit at the port where the water pump bolts on (the lower red arrow).

I was never able to get any water to come out of the bottom (lower arrow).

Can anyone explain to me why I cannot get water to pass through this motor? It seems like there is an internal blockage. I do not want to re-assemble everything until I have solved this issue. Thanks

 

[Joe Stewart]

Photo

 

[Dieseltech]

Take that six bolt plate off the head front and try again, maybe the manifold ports are plugged for some reason.

 

[fdt860]

(quoted from post at 17:47:00 12/22/23)
<img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto169008.jpg>

This 4430 has been sitting in the seller's yard for about the last 15 years without being started. The price was right so I bought it. The water pump was frozen, so I removed it for rebuild. I spun the motor by putting a pry bar on the ring gear. The turbo spins by hand. I have not attempted to start it yet. Today I took a pressure washer and sprayed into the thermostat manifold (upper red arrow). I expected the water to travel through the engine and exit at the port where the water pump bolts on (the lower red arrow).

I was never able to get any water to come out of the bottom (lower arrow).

Can anyone explain to me why I cannot get water to pass through this motor? It seems like there is an internal blockage. I do not want to re-assemble everything until I have solved this issue. Thanks

Make sure the water does not go in the oil pan.

 

[used red MN]

Were you providing the pressure washer water out of a separate container or some type of a yard faucet? In other words do you know how much water you actually sprayed in it? A pressure washer delivers a small amount of gallons per minute but at a high pressure. So you may have not even added enough water to the block to get it to flow out, particularly if you are using a plug in 110 volt unit, their GPM is very low. As ftd it is a good idea to check that it is not in the oil pan. If it is you might want to start looking for the refund clause on your bill of sale.

 

[Joe Stewart]

Yes, I am using a 110volt plug in pressure washer. I kept spraying into the thermostat manifold until the water started backing up . But I never saw any water come out the bottom, even though I could not force any more into the top. Gravity should carry that water through there, but it seemed that I could not even force it with pressure (by trying to hold my hand over the inlet while spraying). I will re-try today. I will remove that six bolt plate before trying. I will check the oil pan. I will report back. Thank you for all of your replies.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

If you take the tip off the nozzle it wont take as long filling from the top. It says a 4430 is 8 gallon system with a so if you have everything else closed its probably 6 gallons to reach the water pump. On my 4 gallon a minute Hotsy with the tip out it would be at least 1.5 minutes filling to come out that hole. On OTR trucks we had good luck at caterpillar filling with water and using liquid cascade dish soap. Fill it up with in your case about one small bottle the 11 gallon trucks we used most of one big bottle. Then fill with garden hose and run truck till it hits operating temperature and then set a timer for 15 minutes 1200 rpm or so might take some management with piece of cardboard over radiator this time of year. Drain truck and do 2 clean water rinses in the same manner. You would be amazed how much oil came out and how nice and shiny stuff was when you were done.

 

[used red MN]

Then if it was open you have mice nests or something down in there. What was ..the right price.. for this machine?

 

[buickanddeere]

No stat in the housing ?

 

[Scott 730]

(quoted from post at 13:35:04 12/23/23)
No stat in the housing ?

The stat housing is removed from the water manifold in his picture.

 

[wore out]

Was the cooling system ''open'' when you got the tractor, so that mice or other vermin could have gotten in?

 

[fdt860]

(quoted from post at 11:12:05 12/23/23)
Was the cooling system ''open'' when you got the tractor, so that mice or other vermin could have gotten in?

The oil filter looks 40 years old, you need to change it before attempting to syart it,as well as changing oil. Even if it is to put oil you just drained from another good running tractor. That thing has not started for the last 25 or 30 years,not 15.

 

[Joe Stewart]

Thanks again for all the replies. We spent some more time on this tractor today.

There is no water in the oil pan thankfully.

We tried again to force water through the motor using the pressure washer and holding our hands over the hole to force the water through. Eventually, the water jacket fills and the water starts backing up around our hands and soaking our pants, however we cannot get any water to come out the bottom hole (where the water pump bolts on).

We removed that plate with six bolts on the front of the cylinder head, as suggested in an earlier reply (thanks). There is HEAVY CORROSION inside the water jacket of the cylinder head. We pointed the pressure washer wand in there and did our best (see photo), but it seems like not much oxidized material came out (Note: removing that plate only gives you limited access to the water jacket - you can't see much even under the best of conditions - but I can tell you, the rust is heavy in there!).

We removed the petcock on the side of the block and sprayed the pressure washer in there while blocking the lower hole (where the water pump bolts on...) with our hands. Eventually pressure will build up and water starts spraying out from around our hands, but no water will reach the cylinder head and water never appears up at the holes where the thermostats go......

Gentlemen, we have concluded that ALL OF THE HOLES CONNECTING THE WATER JACKET OF THE CYLINDER HEAD WITH THE WATER JACKET OF THE BLOCK ARE OCCLUDED WITH RUST.

We are planning on making a block off plate with a piece of flat stock to block the lower hole. Then we will fill the water jacket with as much vinegar as we can get in there and let it sit for a period of time before draining it out and then neutralizing it with baking soda. Then we will see what we have.

Bad idea?

 

[Joe Stewart]

Yes, the cooling system was closed when I bought the tractor. However there was no coolant left in the radiator. There was maybe a gallon of coolant in the block, and it was not extremely rusty (although some particles and dirty water started coming out when we pointed the pressure washer wand in there). It appeared that there was antifreeze mixed with the water that came out.

There WAS an eight (8) inch thick bird's nest in the muffler, however. Did I mention that this tractor sat (never started or used) for fifteen years?

Yes, the oil filter filter appears old (see above). We already bought a new one, but won't put it on until we have this water circulation problem sorted out. Thanks for pointing it out though!

Yes, I had removed the thermostat cover housing before I took the above photos - that is where we were pointing the pressure washer wand.
(Note, both thermostats were blocked with rust). I appreciate all replies!

PM me if you have any of the 4430 manuals in pdf! Thanks

 

[used red MN]

You need put that front plate back on. Then just spray your washer in the block drain, maybe even put some electric tape around it to make a good seal. I think you just do not get enough volume to force the water up and out of the block. I will admit it is odd if water does not go down in the water manifold on top of the head.

 

[Mark-Ia]

I think I'd be pulling the head. That much rust, the valves are going to be toast.

 

[wore out]

''I think I'd be pulling the head. That much rust, the valves are going to be toast.''

WHAT does rust in the cooling system have to do with the condition of the valves?

If the remaining antifreeze was NASTY I'd be FAR more concerned about the condition of the sleeves.

I wouldn't be surprised if the O.P. DOES get it flushed out and up and running that sleeve pitting will soon show up as coolant leaking into the crankcase.

 

[Mark-Ia]

15 or more years not running. Some of the valves will be open and stuck after drawing moisture for those 15 years. just as well to pull the head now, at least the valve cover for starters
.

 

[Joe Stewart]

Time for a follow up post.

I filled the water jacket with vinegar and let it sit for a week. Drained it and flushed. I finally was able to get some water to move from the cylinder head down into the block's water jacket. Then I filled the water jacket with "Evapo-Rust" and let it sit for 3 weeks. Drained that out and flushed as best I could.

I took the valve cover off. None of the valves are stuck.

I am now trying to see if I can get the engine to start and run. I put a new gear reduction starter on it. The fuel tank was previously removed from the tractor for cleaning, so I have rigged up a temporary marine tank and an electric fuel pump to push diesel into the fuel filters and injector pump.

I loosened all the high pressure lines at the injectors.

I can get the engine to start and run on ether. It will run as long as I spray ether into the turbo. But so far, I have only seen fuel at the number three injector. All the rest are dry.

I am starting to think that I am not pushing fuel at high enough pressure. The electric fuel pump I am using is 4 psi. Does anyone know what fuel pressure the OEM lift pump puts out?

 

[wore out]

Time for a follow up post.

I filled the water jacket with vinegar and let it sit for a week. Drained it and flushed. I finally was able to get some water to move from the cylinder head down into the block's water jacket. Then I filled the water jacket with "Evapo-Rust" and let it sit for 3 weeks. Drained that out and flushed as best I could.

I took the valve cover off. None of the valves are stuck.

I am now trying to see if I can get the engine to start and run. I put a new gear reduction starter on it. The fuel tank was previously removed from the tractor for cleaning, so I have rigged up a temporary marine tank and an electric fuel pump to push diesel into the fuel filters and injector pump.

I loosened all the high pressure lines at the injectors.

I can get the engine to start and run on ether. It will run as long as I spray ether into the turbo. But so far, I have only seen fuel at the number three injector. All the rest are dry.

I am starting to think that I am not pushing fuel at high enough pressure. The electric fuel pump I am using is 4 psi. Does anyone know what fuel pressure the OEM lift pump puts out?

The primary fuel pump on the side of the actual injection pump makes something like 12 psi.

If you are feeding that with an electric fuel pump vs. the lift pump lower down on the engine block that will be just fine.

Have you pumped the hand primer on the primary fuel pump enough that fuel is returning back to the tank from the fuel gallery in the injection pump?

The "rack" inside the injection pump MAY be stuck in the "no fuel" or near idle position, which is a GOOD thing vs. it being stuck at a high fuel rate that would cause the engine to "run away" and "grenade" at startup.

If even one of the plungers (or is it "barrels"?) is stuck, the "rack" won't be able to move itself, along with the units for the other cylinders to a higher fuel rate setting, or to the "STOP" position should it start.

Hopefully one of the diesel pump guys will be along and tell you what you can check with the I.P. on the tractor.

I would be cautious of further trying to start it without knowing what's going on with the I.P..

IF you crank it any more be SURE to have a board or something similar to slap over the air intake should it start and "run away"/"over rev".