JD M Clutch Grinding

[matttractor]

Hey all,

I inherited a JD M from my dad and the clutch has some issue going on. It'll grind when disengaged 90% of the time. Sometimes it'll act right.

I've adjusted the clutch pedal for 1.5" free travel. That didn't help. Figured I needed to get in to it and see what's going on, so I split the tractor. I don't have any experience with tractor repair etc but got the service manual to know exactly what it is I am looking at. From what I've read online the issue may be the throw out bearing. Any ideas or suggestions looking at my pics? If I can get away with just replacing the bearing that'd be great. A full kit that I was looking at runs about $320 (https://www.external_link/JDS3013-Clutch-Kit-Engine-).

By the way, if I am replacing the throw out bearing how do I pull the dang thing off and press a new one on?

 

[used red MN]

(Edit adding per woreouts reply, First before the other first, is grinding gear teeth grinding or just some noise being heard like a bearing?) First let’s make sure we are all on the same page and using proper terminology. I believe this tractor has a pedal, so disengaging is when you push the pedal down is this what you mean? If so then the most probable cause is the throwout bearing. If you hold pressure against it and rotate it back and forth does it feel rough? The second thing could be the pilot bearing. Is it a bearing or a bushing? If it is a bearing an initial check can be done with a socket on an extension. Hopefully you can choose a socket that the rounded edge will rest in the ID of the bearing. Then again see if it feel rough turning it with pressure on it. I will leave it to a Deere guy to tell you how to remove the TO bearing.

 

[wore out]

Hey all,

I inherited a JD M from my dad and the clutch has some issue going on. It'll grind when disengaged 90% of the time. Sometimes it'll act right.

I've adjusted the clutch pedal for 1.5" free travel. That didn't help. Figured I needed to get in to it and see what's going on, so I split the tractor. I don't have any experience with tractor repair etc but got the service manual to know exactly what it is I am looking at. From what I've read online the issue may be the throw out bearing. Any ideas or suggestions looking at my pics? If I can get away with just replacing the bearing that'd be great. A full kit that I was looking at runs about $320 (https://www.external_link/JDS3013-Clutch-Kit-Engine-).

By the way, if I am replacing the throw out bearing how do I pull the dang thing off and press a new one on?

Throwout bearings don't "come and go"/work sometimes and not work and then work the next time you step on the clutch pedal.

Unless it's been making lots of noise while the clutch is depressed or is terribly worn and "sloppy" it is fine. (Most T.O. bearings have at least SOME axial "play".)


What is more likely is that the lined disc splines and the pilot shaft splines are gummy, sticky, rusty or that there is a "ledge" in the splines any or all of which don't always allow the lined disc to slide rearwards a little when the pedal is depressed and the pressure plate moves rearwards.

If the lined plate doesn't back off a little the lining on the front of the plate drags against the flywheel and makes it hard to shift/gears grind.

 

[matttractor]

(Edit adding per woreouts reply, First before the other first, is grinding gear teeth grinding or just some noise being heard like a bearing?) First let’s make sure we are all on the same page and using proper terminology. I believe this tractor has a pedal, so disengaging is when you push the pedal down is this what you mean? If so then the most probable cause is the throwout bearing. If you hold pressure against it and rotate it back and forth does it feel rough? The second thing could be the pilot bearing. Is it a bearing or a bushing? If it is a bearing an initial check can be done with a socket on an extension. Hopefully you can choose a socket that the rounded edge will rest in the ID of the bearing. Then again see if it feel rough turning it with pressure on it. I will leave it to a Deere guy to tell you how to remove the TO bearing.

I'll share a video I took of what happens when depressing the clutch pedal to disengage the clutch. The grinding is coming from the center frame bellhousing.

I can depress the clutch pedal over and over again and very rarely does it seem to 'catch' and operate as intended without the grinding.

 

[wore out]

(Edit adding per woreouts reply, First before the other first, is grinding gear teeth grinding or just some noise being heard like a bearing?) First let’s make sure we are all on the same page and using proper terminology. I believe this tractor has a pedal, so disengaging is when you push the pedal down is this what you mean? If so then the most probable cause is the throwout bearing. If you hold pressure against it and rotate it back and forth does it feel rough? The second thing could be the pilot bearing. Is it a bearing or a bushing? If it is a bearing an initial check can be done with a socket on an extension. Hopefully you can choose a socket that the rounded edge will rest in the ID of the bearing. Then again see if it feel rough turning it with pressure on it. I will leave it to a Deere guy to tell you how to remove the TO bearing.

To R.R. and the original poster, I just did what I told another fellow to do and re-read the original post.

IF it is making that noise without you attempting to shift gears, YES the problem is likely in the throwout bearing.

STRANGE that you say it doesn't happen each and every time the clutch pedal is depressed tho?

As you were told, if you put force against the T.O. bearing as you manually turn it it should feel very rough if it is the source of all that noise.

If that is true, you have solved you problem, and I hope that's what it is, a simple fix to replace the T.O. bearing. It is a light press fit on it's "carrier", you can easily yank it off if you have a slide hammer puller with long jaws or tap it forward and off with a brass hammer.

Should that NOT turn out to be the problem, other things to check, be sure nothing in the clutch release mechanism is out of place and contacting the pressure plate and and the crankshaft thrust bearing hasn't failed allowing for excessive endplay that allows the crank and flywheel to be forced forward causing it to contact stationary parts.

Let us know what you find with the condition of the T.O. bearing.

 

[used red MN]

What wore out has explained does not apply to your problem at least the part after “What is more likely…” Did you spin the throwout bearing with pressure on it as I suggested. If it feels like it has a bunch of sand inside making it feel rough when turning that is your problem. No matter you will want to pull the clutch off the flywheel and check the condition. Take a hammer and center punch or chisel and put two marks next to one of the bolts on the clutch plate. Then two corresponding marks on the flywheel surface. This way if you return it to use you will reinstall it in the same position. I will stick my neck out because I have not worked on one of those, this is how I see the TO bearing coming out. Take some pictures of this before you start to pull it. Take the pin out of the top of the mechanism. Then disconnect the springs. It looks like where the bottom pivots it has a clip to remove to slide it off that pivot. Then the whole thing will slide off. The bearing is likely just installed with a light interference or press fit. Find a socket that the holder part that slides on the tube in the tractor will be supported on when you set it on it. Yet the inside of the bearing will pass over it. Pound against the back side of the bearing to drive it off the carrier. It may dent the tin of the bearing but that is fine you are replacing it. You will likely have to tap one side then the other to drive it off even. To install it lay a short 2x4 board on it with the carrier on something solid like a concrete floor and pound the board to drive it on. You will need to obtain a clutch alignment tool to center the clutch plate to reinstall the pressure plate. Forgot to say both loosen and tighten the pressure plate evenly working in an X or side to side pattern.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

You are definitely not going to want to just do that bearing if it’s apart. Throw out bearing, pilot bearing,clutch springs clutch disk, possibly resurface the flywheel. Adjust correctly before reinstalling. Grab that transmission input shaft and see how much it moves back and forth

 

[used red MN]

To R.R. and the original poster, I just did what I told another fellow to do and re-read the original post.

IF it is making that noise without you attempting to shift gears, YES the problem is likely in the throwout bearing.

STRANGE that you say it doesn't happen each and every time the clutch pedal is depressed tho?

As you were told, if you put force against the T.O. bearing as you manually turn it it should feel very rough if it is the source of all that noise.

If that is true, you have solved you problem, and I hope that's what it is, a simple fix to replace the T.O. bearing. It is a light press fit on it's "carrier", you can easily yank it off if you have a slide hammer puller with long jaws or tap it forward and off with a brass hammer.

Should that NOT turn out to be the problem, other things to check, be sure nothing in the clutch release mechanism is out of place and contacting the pressure plate and and the crankshaft thrust bearing hasn't failed allowing for excessive endplay that allows the crank and flywheel to be forced forward causing it to contact stationary parts.

Let us know what you find with the condition of the T.O. bearing.

You are definitely not going to want to just do that bearing if it’s apart. Throw out bearing, pilot bearing,clutch springs clutch disk, possibly resurface the flywheel. Adjust correctly before reinstalling. Grab that transmission input shaft and see how much it moves back and forth

And some people, have money coming out of their ears. Not sure of his financial situation maybe he does want to throw money at it. In my book if it does not look like it’s down to near the rivets on the lining I would put it back together. Definitely check the pilot bearing. To me I am not going to say, you got to do this and that like Tim D would do, throw the whole 8N bible at him. I should go easy on him, I guess he is having some health issues. That tractor is not that hard to split. Now a 30 or 4020 or more, that is a little more involved not as easy to do again. In that case things would be given more consideration. Also next spring he won’t be taking it out in the field and working it every day 3 - 4 weeks in a row.

 

[M-MAN]

Thanks for the video. It makes a difference. I was convinced you had a bad throw throwout bearing too but that grinding sounds like more is going on. I've heard a lot of bad ones in my time but nothing like that.

Pull the pressure plate and clutch and have something underneath to catch something should it fall out. I think you have something loose inside the assembly. Might be part of the clutch and might be part of an old starter drive but I'm convinced there's something. Your pilot is completely dry also.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

And some people, have money coming out of their ears. Not sure of his financial situation maybe he does want to throw money at it. In my book if it does not look like it’s down to near the rivets on the lining I would put it back together. Definitely check the pilot bearing. To me I am not going to say, you got to do this and that like Tim D would do, throw the whole 8N bible at him. I should go easy on him, I guess he is having some health issues. That tractor is not that hard to split. Now a 30 or 4020 or more, that is a little more involved not as easy to do again. In that case things would be given more consideration. Also next spring he won’t be taking it out in the field and working it every day 3 - 4 weeks in a row.

we are talking 750 dollars here worst case scenario for all of that even if he pays the machinist. Grab whatever a rear main seal for an m is too while you are at it. Im just saying don't skimp rework isn't my idea of a good time that's how a fun old tractor gets to sitting for 10 15 years or sold. Maybe if he checks the disks and flywheel they are good great. But if he's using that pedal and making that kind of noise and the throw out is in one piece not terribly dry feeling like in the video I'm betting going a bit farther he's going to find an obvious problem like m-man wrote and not have to do this twice. The suggestion is more while you are in it rebuilding the clutch it's also a good idea to replace the bearings.

 

[matttractor]

Haven’t had much time to dig in to it. May get the flywheel off today and the clutch assembly in the bell housing.

I tested the throw out bearing. It gives resistance when rotating l. If I apply pressure and turn it then it rotates more freely and felt smooth and quiet.

Pulled the pressure plate and clutch disk. Disk doesn’t seem worn down to the rivets and no obvious damage to it. There are some gold flakes that I’m not quite sure what to make of it.

 

[wore out]

Haven’t had much time to dig in to it. May get the flywheel off today and the clutch assembly in the bell housing.

I tested the throw out bearing. It gives resistance when rotating l. If I apply pressure and turn it then it rotates more freely and felt smooth and quiet.

Pulled the pressure plate and clutch disk. Disk doesn’t seem worn down to the rivets and no obvious damage to it. There are some gold flakes that I’m not quite sure what to make of it.

"There are some gold flakes that I’m not quite sure what to make of it."

The "gold flakes" are what's left of your pilot bearing/bushing!

It's absence would allow the pilot shaft and lined plate to flop around when the clutch pedal is depressed.

 

[wore out]

"There are some gold flakes that I’m not quite sure what to make of it."

The "gold flakes" are what's left of your pilot bearing/bushing!

It's absence would allow the pilot shaft and lined plate to flop around when the clutch pedal is depressed.

More info, bronze bushing and grease retainer, AM1597T were used though Serial Number 44474, parts were updated and ball bearing JD8511T was used from #44475 and after.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

yes if you look at the flywheel you can see part of the race I believe. It would appear someone did put a new disk in not long ago to me. So can he use the ball bearing one? a bushing seems like a bad idea to me there I suppose that's not a race then

 

[used red MN]

Incase you don’t know the pilot bearing (really bushing) in this case is in the middle of the 4 bolts in the flywheel. Ideal clearance between the inside diameter of the bushing and the outside diameter of the shoulder on the input shaft should be around 0.008 to 0.012” roughly 2 sheets of paper. For the sake of exaggeration, you could probably sling a cat through the clearance you have the way it is ground out. I believe the ball bearing woreout posted should fit and be an update improvement for you. Post a photo of the stub on the end of the trans shaft. The bushing was made of “oilite” bronze which is oil impregnated, sometimes they just decide to go south. If what fixing farmer suggest is true that someone recently replaced the clutch they made have “dinged” the ID of the bushing bore. That may have caused a local hot spot there initiating the failure.

 

[matttractor]

More info, bronze bushing and grease retainer, AM1597T were used though Serial Number 44474, parts were updated and ball bearing JD8511T was used from #44475 and after.

My serial number is 29367 so it has the older bronze bushing and grease retainer installed. I’m assuming I could use updated parts interchangeably?

 

[matttractor]

Incase you don’t know the pilot bearing (really bushing) in this case is in the middle of the 4 bolts in the flywheel. Ideal clearance between the inside diameter of the bushing and the outside diameter of the shoulder on the input shaft should be around 0.008 to 0.012” roughly 2 sheets of paper. For the sake of exaggeration, you could probably sling a cat through the clearance you have the way it is ground out. I believe the ball bearing woreout posted should fit and be an update improvement for you. Post a photo of the stub on the end of the trans shaft. The bushing was made of “oilite” bronze which is oil impregnated, sometimes they just decide to go south. If what fixing farmer suggest is true that someone recently replaced the clutch they made have “dinged” the ID of the bushing bore. That may have caused a local hot spot there initiating the failure.

 

[used red MN]

That shaft looks fine.YT has the bearing but they “slice and dice you” on shipping in my opinion. Probably can source one locally. I think they show the ID incorrectly; 0.591” is what I found other vendor show, 1.378” OD.
YT Pilot brg.

 

[wore out]

My serial number is 29367 so it has the older bronze bushing and grease retainer installed. I’m assuming I could use updated parts interchangeably?

Looks like the DEERE part number has been updated to JD10107, $7.11 at the dealership.

Looks like a part most dealerships would have in stock.

I can't say for sure the bearing is a direct swap for the bushing, there's an "adapter" that can be pulled out of the flywheel, but I don't know for sure if the pilot shaft diameter changed at the update.

For $7.11 you may have to get a bearing and see if it will work.

Also, it looks like the industry bearing number is 6202.

 

[used red MN]

That shaft looks fine.YT has the bearing but they “slice and dice you” on shipping in my opinion. Probably can source one locally. I think they show the ID incorrectly; 0.591” is what I found other vendor show, 1.378” OD.
YT Pilot brg.

If you pull the flywheel I am not 100 percent sure if it may go on multiple ways. I like to mark them to reinstall them in the same position. Take a center punch and punch once inside the hole above the center drilling in the crank. Then another one on the flywheel at 12 o’clock between the bolts. The noise was the shaft “chattering” inside the ID of the hole due to the extra clearance mentioned above moving rapidly in an “elliptical” motion. The occasions when it made no noise for some reason the chattering did not start.