Lead Substitute, do you use it?

[redtom]

I started cleaning out my oil and chemical cabinet. I found about 20 bottles of the Gunk brand lead substitute that I accumulated probably in the 90's or early 2000's. I was putting it in my lawn tractor back then and probably a few tractors. Havent used any in years. Do you guys use it? I find many pro and con debates on the net. I haven't put any hardened valve seats in my tractors YET but if and when I do another overhaul I will. I most likely will send it to the local auction unless I'm persuaded to use it. I also found other obsolete lubes like straight Dexron atf and Dexcool which I will be getting rid of.

 

[rusty6]

(quoted from post at 17:27:41 10/18/22) I started cleaning out my oil and chemical cabinet. I found about 20 bottles of the Gunk brand lead substitute that I accumulated probably in the 90's or early 2000's. I was putting it in my lawn tractor back then and probably a few tractors. Havent used any in years. Do you guys use it? .

I have not used any of the lead substitute in probably 25 years and no ill effects yet in any of my engines.

 

[Philip d]

Dad used it in his 49 Oldsmobile. Not sure if it helped or not but it went in the tank every fill up.

 

[Janicholson]

There is no reason to use it at all. There has been no verified degradation in engine life or performance from using it. It may also damage catalytic converteJs. jim

 

[3LFarms]

This post was edited by 3LFarms on 10/18/2022 at 05:42 pm.

 

[Stephen Newell]

The lead substitute is made for vintage tractors and vehicles before the 1970's before catalytic converters.

 

[Northvale PA]

I put Marvel and Sta-bil in my tractor unleaded gas. All running well.

 

[moresmoke]

Most all gas tractors were never designed to need the lead. They were not fast revving and had relatively low valve spring pressure. The only ones I might worry about would be some of the last IH gas engines as they turned a bit faster than most.

Different story if we start talking about a performance V8 in your classic muscle car.

 

[caterpillar guy]

The ATF makes penetrating oil for rusty bolts so might want hold on to it. Or could use it for power steering oil or squirt can oil if you want to get rid of it.

 

[MarkB_MI]

Perhaps someone can explain how the so-called lead substitutes are supposed to work. Until them, my assumption is they're all snake oil and a waste of money. If an engine has ever been run on leaded gas, its valves already have enough lead. And if you want to give a lead treatment to a newly-overhauled engine, just run a tank or two of 100LL avgas through it.

Use that old Dexron in your oil squirt can. Why do you say Dex-Cool is 'obsolete'?

 

[Steve@Advance]

What I understand of it, lead was to protect the valves and seats. What it actually did I don't know.

It was mostly needed for engines that saw a lot of full throttle operation, like oversized trucks with undersized engines. But most of those had hardened seats and valves anyway.

If it is used as an additive, it would need to be added every time, it is not a residual treatment that solves a certain problem, but a preventive. You would not want to put it in anything with a catalytic converter.

 

[Butch(OH)]

Lead and its affect on valve seats is much over worried about and talked about. The only situation where one might see its affect would be on an engine that runs long hours, at high loadings, high rpms, narrow seats and high spring pressures. Otherwise there is no reason to even think about it.
Many moons ago I worked at a quarry where they were talked into switching to Dexcool under the quise that it would not ruin bearings if it got in the engine oil. Starting in about year 2 they were loosing radiators to rot as quick as I could get them recored which was a mystery until the guy at the radiator shop told me to get rid of the Dexcool. I wouldn't give Dexcool to an enemy.

 

[UncleTom]

Ive seen early 350 chevy engines that had the valves worn recessed down in to the head almost a 14 of an inch into the head. It never had hardened seats.

 

[MarkB_MI]

> Starting in about year 2 they were loosing radiators to rot as quick as I could get them recored which was a mystery until the guy at the radiator shop told me to get rid of the Dexcool. I wouldn't give Dexcool to an enemy.

Millions of GM cars on the road filled with Dex-Cool, many of them over twenty years old and with over 100K miles on them. Yet, surprisingly, nearly every radiator shop around me has closed for lack of business.

 

[Geo-TH,In]

Mark
You know I'm not a rocket scientist.
My mother didn't raise a dummy, well there is my brother.. He's not the sharpest tool in the tool shed.

I had a 1962 3.6L 6 cylinder with the highest compression heads.
I think they were 9.5:1 (not 100% sure).
It required 98 octane. When lead was removed the octane rating dropped 93 or 92.

Lead prevented pre-ingition, pinging, in high compression engines.

All I could do was retard the spark to prevent pinging.


I parked the car with intentions of doing a total rebuild when I retired.
The dana 411 was leaking oil on the rear rotors..

After Dr told me I needed L4-L5 fused. Dr told me to get rid of my car, Eldorado, and buy a Truck or SUV. Dr was right.
Getting in and out of my jab was extremely difficult and a back killer.

I sold my XKE and 650 triumph motorcycle.
No back fusion 19 years later.
There may come a time when pain meds stop working I may be rethinking fusion..

I think lead and lead substitutes boosted octane.
Again, I'm not a rocket scientist.
Not sure what damage pinging does to an engine.
Today's cars use an ultrasonic sensor to retard spark or does something to stop pinning.
The XKE has to be the best looking car ever made.
The XKE has be the most uncomfortable car I've ever driven.

 

[560Dennis]

I dont use it .
I do ,as engines in need of repair I have my engine builder put in steel valve seats as a standard procedure for me.

 

[jimg.allentown]

One of the best things that ever happened to engines was the elimination of lead in the gasoline.

Before the introduction of catalytic converters, I worked in a dealership in the heave mechanical department. Most of the work was various engine repairs, transmissions, clutches, rears, brakes, and enything that might get the boys' hands dirty in the ''tune-up'' department.

One of the things that I observed was that engines that had failed for one reason or another had gobs of gray sticky gook in all of the little corners and crevices of the engine. There would be gobs of it in the oil pan. It was a big pain in the butt to clean up.

With the introduction of unleaded gas and catalytic converters, I observed that major engine repairs became less frequent. Those that did require repairs were so much cleaner inside. No more pockets of gray gook all over! Could it be that the lead was actually harming engines? Well, that is MY opinion anyways.

Over the years, I have used unleaded gas in many older engines. I never had any issues caused by the absence of lead in the gas. Personally, I think that the whole objection to removing lead from the gas because of the valve seats was just an excuse and nothing more.

What to do with the lead substitute? My vote is to just get rid of it.

 

[rrlund]

I remember a big deal about it in the ag media when they took the lead out, but like so many other things we're supposed to loose sleep over, it turned out to be a big nothing.

 

[MarkB_MI]

> I think lead and lead substitutes boosted octane.

Tetraethyl lead is a cheap way to boost octane. But gasoline can be formulated to boost octane without using lead, it's just more expensive.

Newer cars are much more tolerant of low-octane fuels, due to technologies such as knock detection and fuel injection.

It sounds like you've owned a lot of interesting vehicles. Most folks sell their Jags because they get sick of the repair bills, not because they're uncomfortable.

Note that today's octane ratings are exactly comparable to those back in the sixties. Current pump ratings are an average of the Motor and Research octane ratings. Back in the day, I believe they used the Research rating because it is higher than Motor.

 

[DennisDW]

Is today's Lead Substitute actually Lead? It looks more like some kind of red oil similiar to Marvel Mystery Oil.

 

[onefarmer]

The way I see it the lead was to protect engines with the soft cast iron seats. Since the removal of lead all engines were made with hardened seats, any older engines with the soft seats have either been worked on or long since dead.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

(quoted from post at 06:50:21 10/19/22) Is today's Lead Substitute actually Lead? It looks more like some kind of red oil similiar to Marvel Mystery Oil.

Is it actually lead? No. It's a "substitute" for lead.

Probably the same thing as Marvel Mystery Oil. What's in Marvel Mystery Oil? Nobody knows. It's a mystery.

In the early days of lead substitute, at least the CenPeCo product was gray to make you think it was lead.

We had lots of problems with fouled spark plugs on our gas engine tractors when they finally took leaded gasoline off the market.

 

[Bill(Wis)]

The only reason tetra-ethyl lead was added to gasoline was it was the cheapest way known to increase the octane level of gasoline which the higher compression engines needed to prevent pre-ignition. It had nothing, NOTHING, to do with protecting valve seats. That might have been an advertising claim, but it was all about increasing octane. AMOCO sold theitr ''white gas'' which was a highly refined gasoline that was as clear as water, high octane, and no lead, but it was expensive. I understand that they're refining it again at their refineries in Texas and Virginia and it will soon be available at their midwest stations. I remember when a lot of the aircraft the military flew were powered by reciprocating gasoline engines. The military decided to go to one grade of fuel in everything. Because some of the big stuff required 115/145 avgas that became the gas used in everything. US government contracts go to the lowest bidder. Lowest bidder had to use lead to achieve 115 octane. That fuel had so much lead in it it would turn our fingers white when we took fuel samples. Which was every day. Some of the aircraft didn't need high octane. One of them was a Hiller helicopter that required 87 octane. That particular helicopter used engine oil to lubricate the transmission. The engine oil, after using the new 115 octane fuel, started leaving lead deposits in the transmission. The first thing that failed was the Borg-Warner over-running clutch, which made auto-rotation possible. The entire fleet of Hiller helicopters had to be grounded and a seperate transmission lubrication system installed. The lead deposits were fowling the clutches with a gray, gloppy substance. These old tractor engines came out when low octane fuels were the norm. They didn't need any lead then and they don't need any lead now.

 

[Geo-TH,In]

Mark.
I learned a long time ago if you want something done right you have to do yourself.
No one wanted to work on British iron
No dealer support
You have to know how to work on terramites.
No dealer support.

Dealer couldn't fix my idle problem on my Kawasaki 4010fuel injected mule.
I had to buy a shop manual and do a lot of reading and thinking before I found the problem.

I'm getting too old, so I only buy new from a reputable dealer.

I still do repairs on my Jubilee, Farmall and many riding mowers.

I used to repair furnace and ACs.

Not too many things.i won't take apart and attempt to repair.

 

[miangus]

Agree, lead and carburetors ruined a lot of engines. Sticking chokes and failing floats would wash down the rings, lead would gum up the valves and plugs.

 

[Janicholson]

Fortunately this is not true. With no flame, the gasoline tractors most commonly discussed here on YT have just head material as exhaust seat. There is far less buildup and fouling of the valves and sparkplugs now, and wear is un affected. Jim

 

[Jim in LA]

When I was kid I raced go karts(2 stroke McCullochs). We used Amoco white gas and Wynns friction proofing plus Valvoline 2 stroke oil in our engines. I dont remember the price per gallon) this was 1970-1973) but we only used the white gas in the kart engines. We had two Amoco stations in our little town at one time.