Live PTO

[robroy]

With which ford model was live pto standard equipment on all tractors?

 

[JDEM]

I assume any tractor made in 1959 with the Select-o-Speed transmission had what I call "live PTO."

 

[JDEM]

One example is the 1959 Ford 871 Gold Selecto-O-Matic.

 

[Larry NCKS]

Not prior to 1975 I wouldn't think. And by then many were independent instead of live. I'd guess "live PTO" never did really become standard equipment.

 

[Larry NCKS]

SOS transmissions had independent PIO.

 

[Larry NCKS]

(quoted from post at 16:51:43 06/21/20) One example is the 1959 Ford 871 Gold Selecto-O-Matic.

Ha! There was no such thing!

 

[Larry NCKS]

(quoted from post at 16:55:13 06/21/20)
SOS transmissions had independent PIO.

Oops! PTO

 

[Larry NCKS]

(quoted from post at 16:55:13 06/21/20)
SOS transmissions had independent PIO.

Oops! PTO

 

[Ultradog MN]

Interesting question.
I'm thinking you'd have to get pretty new
and pretty big.
Maybe a 5000 and larger? and those have
independent pto, not live pto.
All of the 4 cylinder machines from about
1955 to 64 had optional live pto but it
was by no means standard. Probably more
were built without live than with it.
They could have been ordered with No pto
too.
From 65 onward live pto in the 2/3000s
was still optional. Independent pto was
still an option on 4000s.
Even the 76-82 2600/3600s may have had
live pto as an option. Not sure on that.

 

[SEArk]

[I guess you are familiar with a over riding clutch or overrun coupler. they work great with a single clutch tractor. just keep them greased! see pto parts on 8N. quote="robroy"](reply to post at 20:45:03 06/21/20) [/quote]

 

[Larry NCKS]

[/quote]

I don't think that has anything to do with his question.

 

[JDEM]

There is no absolute rule at to what "live PTO" means. If you look at some of the first patents, titles were often about marketing. To me
(and many others) - live PTO means the PTO stays running even when you disengage your wheel travel. It can be an "independent",
"Continuous", etc. Different companies had different schemes and titles.

The Golden Jubilee option enabled you to disengage the PTO without disengaging the wheel travel. You could not, however, disengage the wheel
travel and still have the PTO turning.

Dual clutch tractors were one way of doing it (like in a Ferguson TO35 Deluxe). Having a separate "independent" clutch pack for the PTO was
another.

 

[Ultradog MN]

"You could not, however, disengage the wheel travel and still have the PTO turning."

JDEM,
Actually you could.
That add on clutch system disconnected the transmission output to the pinion shaft.
It replaced the usual splined coupler with a clutch pack.
Pulling the auxiliary handle back would stop the tractor but allow the pto to keep turning.

 

[Fordfarmer]

Correct... 5000 (and bigger) came standard with independent PTO, as did all tractors with a Select-O-Speed. And yes, the 26/3600 still had live PTO as an option.

 

[Bob N.Y.]

I am going to take issue with 2 things you said. The Golden Jubilee option was a dis connect between the transmission and differential. It allowed the operator to stop and start the ground travel without interrupting the PTO. You said just the opposite. However, it was not possible to shift gears without interrupting the PTO.
Issue 2: The American Society of Agricultural Engineers has defined "Live PTO" and "Independent PTO". Live PTO allows the operator to stop and start the ground travel without interrupting the PTO. Independent PTO allows the operator to stop and start the ground travel without interrupting the PTO but also allows the operator to start and stop the PTO without interrupting the ground travel. I will agree that what Cockshutt, Oliver and others advertised as Live PTO back in the 1940s & 50s is now considered to be Independent PTO and that does cause confusion.

 

[Bob N.Y.]

As was said down below, the Ford 660, 860, 960, 661, 861 and 961 all came with a 2 stage clutch which gives them Live PTO. If the middle number is a 7 or 8 the tractor would have the Select-O-Speed transmission and Independent PTO.

 

[JDEM]

Society of Ag Engineers can say what they want. So can the people who invented many of these things and applied for patents. Word usage (connotation and denotation) and meaning is not controlled by the American Society of Agricultural Engineers. As to the Dearborn "Live PTO" option # 23-12? Yes, I could of described it better.

 

[JDEM]

Words absolutely do not mean the same thing to all people, all times, in all places. Even when a person says tractor "model", it can mean
several things. With Fords, at least to me, it gets even more confusing. Take the 601 Workmaster. Some think of it as a "model" and
others as a "series of models." To be technical, with Ford word usage, a model 661 always came with a "Live PTO." A 641 never did.

And back to this "live PTO" versus "independent PTO" versus "continuous PTO" thing. We have no word police here in the USA yet (like France
does). Word meanings change when used, where used, how used. Connotation versus denotation. In fact, when words seem to get used "wrong"
long enough, they become regarded as correct.

When I call someone on the phone about a tractor for sale, and I say I am looking for a "live PTO", it only means one thing to me. I want a
PTO that stays "live" regardless of what I do with the wheel travel. I have read many of the early US Patents and different inventors used
different words - often to say near the same thing. When someone argues that an "independent PTO" is not a "live PTO", seems to be a case
of semantics to me. They both allow the PTO to keep turning, regardless if you stop moving, push in the clutch, etc. This is kind of like
arguing that a "turbocharger" is a totally different thing then a "supercharger." The reality is, a turbocharger is an exhaust-driven
supercharger. I am not sure if I am making myself clear here and I am sure some people do not agree. That said, I will take words for face
value unless I have strong reasons not to.

The most respected source for word origin and present meaning for English is the OED (Oxford English Dictionary). Note the people at the
OED only follow word usage and change, and report on it. Is there any such absolute word-authority when it comes to farm equipment? None
that I know of. I know there are agencies and organizations who try to standardize things - but words are still words.

When it comes to "Independent PTO", it seems to have first showed up as a marketing term. I suppose to indicate it was different then a
dual-clutch, two-stage pedal type "live PTO." I do know that when the word "independent" was used in some early patents, it referred to
the PTO drive being independent of the wheel drive. Now? It often seems to mean an "independent" clutch pack to drive the PTO.

The last tractor I bought, sight-unseen was a Ford 641. I was 800 miles away and the owner only knew it was a Ford Workmaster. I asked him
if it had a "live PTO" and he said yes. I asked him if it had the required 5 speed trans and he said "I think so." So I bought it and later
found out it did not have a live PTO. Seems the previous owner thought "live" simply meant it works when engage. And 5 speed trans? Yeah,
four speeds forward, and one speed backwards equals five. Oh well. I do not think the seller was a liar. Just his way of using words in a
non technical way.