got a log splitter with a new pump that requires a 22 hp motor to run it, thought about running off pto from my M, how would best way to gear up pump to same speed as what Id have from a smaller gas engine so I wouldnt have tractor running wide open, didnt think itd use alot of gas at half throttle or so. Chain drive was my thought? any ideas?
I would do some more checking, why 22 hp to run a splitter. you must be splitting saw logs.
I have an old (Brave Brand) splitter, 30+ years old, it runs fine on a 8 hp briggs and Stratton.
4" ram.
as I understand it: how a small engine can run a wood splitter:
The key to a wood splitter operation is the pump, it flows a high volume of oil to the ram with no load, but when the ram contacts the load there is a valve inside the pump that at a certain pressure buildup, the pump shifts and directs a low volume of oil, but at a much higher pressure, say like (1800 psi, example) and that is what allows a small engine to have enough power to bust wood.
again, that is only my understanding of how it works, my old machine has worked my little tale into the ground many a morning or afternoon, I will not lie and say I could work it all day.
be careful, these are dangerous machines.
I have an old (Brave Brand) splitter, 30+ years old, it runs fine on a 8 hp briggs and Stratton.
4" ram.
as I understand it: how a small engine can run a wood splitter:
The key to a wood splitter operation is the pump, it flows a high volume of oil to the ram with no load, but when the ram contacts the load there is a valve inside the pump that at a certain pressure buildup, the pump shifts and directs a low volume of oil, but at a much higher pressure, say like (1800 psi, example) and that is what allows a small engine to have enough power to bust wood.
again, that is only my understanding of how it works, my old machine has worked my little tale into the ground many a morning or afternoon, I will not lie and say I could work it all day.
be careful, these are dangerous machines.
A splitter needs at least 2000 PSI to be of much use unless it has a huge diameter cylinder. The power needed is about pressure needed versus flow rate.
Takes 24 horsepower to run 21 GPM 2 1500 PSI.
Takes 22 horsepower to run 13.5 GPM @ 2000 PSI.
Assuming you have a 13.5 GPM pump @ 3600 RPM - and you want to hook it to a 545 RPM PTO - you'd need to speed it up 6-7 times. Or you need a pump 6 times bigger.
It makes MUCH more sense to just get a PTO pump made for the job. PTO pumps are made huge and intended to run slow.
The pump you have now - if rated for 13 GPM at engine speeds (3000 RPM) is probably 1 cubic inch per revolution. A PTO pump made to flow the same oil at slow 545 RPM will be 5.7 cubic inches per rev I(almost 6 times bigger). You need a pump either 6 times bigger or it has to be run 6 times faster.
Takes 24 horsepower to run 21 GPM 2 1500 PSI.
Takes 22 horsepower to run 13.5 GPM @ 2000 PSI.
Assuming you have a 13.5 GPM pump @ 3600 RPM - and you want to hook it to a 545 RPM PTO - you'd need to speed it up 6-7 times. Or you need a pump 6 times bigger.
It makes MUCH more sense to just get a PTO pump made for the job. PTO pumps are made huge and intended to run slow.
The pump you have now - if rated for 13 GPM at engine speeds (3000 RPM) is probably 1 cubic inch per revolution. A PTO pump made to flow the same oil at slow 545 RPM will be 5.7 cubic inches per rev I(almost 6 times bigger). You need a pump either 6 times bigger or it has to be run 6 times faster.
Hydraulics are always interesting, given the discussion, the Speeco/Huskee, 28 ton for example has a 5 HP GC190 Honda engine, a 4.5" cylinder and a 11 GPM pump, performance wise, the motor is very fuel efficient, speed is fine, and the pump being 2 stage, I can put the toughest green elm crotch or twisted grain through it, sure its a little more work, but the toughest wood I have tried to split won't stop it, I think you'd bend the cylinder rod first.
The interesting part of this situation to me is, can you get a pto pump that will run low RPM, on the input side, and still get the same intended performance as is a typical splitter like the above, and still have the same fuel efficiency, I know some small compact diesels would seemingly work well given the fuel efficiency of these small diesels, it would seem that an older gasoline powered tractor would work fine but you would burn much more fuel, than a small engine or a late model small diesel. Just speculating, fun discussion for a novice with hydraulics LOL !
The interesting part of this situation to me is, can you get a pto pump that will run low RPM, on the input side, and still get the same intended performance as is a typical splitter like the above, and still have the same fuel efficiency, I know some small compact diesels would seemingly work well given the fuel efficiency of these small diesels, it would seem that an older gasoline powered tractor would work fine but you would burn much more fuel, than a small engine or a late model small diesel. Just speculating, fun discussion for a novice with hydraulics LOL !
If he has a "two stage" pump - he has two hydraulic
pumps in one unit. Stage 1 is the big pump for speed
and low PSI, and 2 is the small pump to make higher
PSI with less engine power and less speed.
Note the poster said he NEEDs 22 horsepower. If that
is true - he does not have a two-stage pump.
pumps in one unit. Stage 1 is the big pump for speed
and low PSI, and 2 is the small pump to make higher
PSI with less engine power and less speed.
Note the poster said he NEEDs 22 horsepower. If that
is true - he does not have a two-stage pump.
Maybe its not a two stage pump, how can I tell, dealer who ordered it for me few years ago knew it was for a splitter but who knows. I no old pump would shear a 8 inch pine log crossways with a ten horse and this pump was told id need a 22 horse briggs but was a bit cheapee than the same size I removed but even with a twelve horse motor I dont have power to run it in tougher peices
A diesel or gas tractor engine is going to run inefficient at a low power draw. If a 35 horse tractor is run all day making 2-7 horsepower -it's going to use more fuel then a small gas engine sized for the job. Now - a small maybe 12-15 horse compact diesel would probably do well.
I've got a 7 horse gas-powered log splitter that uses half the fuel - as compared to my John Deere 1020 diesel running a PTO pump. I prefer the latter though because it's so convenient. Three point hitch splitter allows me to drive to where the wood is.
That Husky 28 ton uses two pumps (in one box) that would be rated around 2.5 GPM and 10 GPM if rated at tractor engine speeds. They call the big pump 11 GPM because it's rated at 3600 RPM.
Pumps have no set GPM rating. It's all about their cubic inch displacement and how fast they are run. The Husky has .2 and .75 cubic-inch-per-rev pumps. PTO pumps are usually 6-9 cubic inches per rev which is huge.
I've got a 7 horse gas-powered log splitter that uses half the fuel - as compared to my John Deere 1020 diesel running a PTO pump. I prefer the latter though because it's so convenient. Three point hitch splitter allows me to drive to where the wood is.
That Husky 28 ton uses two pumps (in one box) that would be rated around 2.5 GPM and 10 GPM if rated at tractor engine speeds. They call the big pump 11 GPM because it's rated at 3600 RPM.
Pumps have no set GPM rating. It's all about their cubic inch displacement and how fast they are run. The Husky has .2 and .75 cubic-inch-per-rev pumps. PTO pumps are usually 6-9 cubic inches per rev which is huge.
If it stalls or labors a 12 horse engine - it's not a two-stage pump unless it's stuck in the high-flow stage. A two stage pump is long. Near twice as long as a one-stage. That because it's just two pumps bolted together. A small pump and a large pump with a pressure-activated valve that determines when one stage kicks out and the other kicks in.
The largest two-stage pump I've seen in my life required a 16 horsepower engine. 28 GPM on the low pressure stage and 7 GPM on the high pressure stage. I doubt anyone even makes a two-stage that requires 22 horsepower. 7/28 GPM uses 16 horse, 22/6 GPM needs 12 horse, 3/16 GPM requires 8 horse, 3/13 GPM needs 6.5 horse, and a 1.8/11 GPM needs a 5 horse engine.
The largest two-stage pump I've seen in my life required a 16 horsepower engine. 28 GPM on the low pressure stage and 7 GPM on the high pressure stage. I doubt anyone even makes a two-stage that requires 22 horsepower. 7/28 GPM uses 16 horse, 22/6 GPM needs 12 horse, 3/16 GPM requires 8 horse, 3/13 GPM needs 6.5 horse, and a 1.8/11 GPM needs a 5 horse engine.
Because tractor engines have governors and a preset max RPM. So they rate the pump at the gallons per minute it can make at that RPM IF they are being honest. Some companies lie a little and rate a pump at specs faster then the tractor can achieve. A pump company might rate a pump at 25 GPM @ 3600 and it gets put on a tractor that can only run 1800 RPM and flow 12.5 GPM.
GPM ratings for a pump are meaningless unless the RPMs are cited. Pump size is rated by cubic inches per rev (or a metric equiv).
GPM ratings for a pump are meaningless unless the RPMs are cited. Pump size is rated by cubic inches per rev (or a metric equiv).
I'd get a 2 stage pump and use a smaller engine. A 22 hp, measured the old way and not this new "maximum observed power" or however they say it, is going to mean a 2 cylinder engine running close to 2 grand new. The tractor isn't going to cut it unless you engineer a tranny into the mix or get a tractor PTO pump. Sell the single stage, find the right parts and you'll be farther ahead.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I eliminated the 8 hp gas engine on my lawn vac by using the rear PTO.
You need a 17" pulley (540 PTO side) and a 2.5" pulley (attached to the pump).
some drive shafts and bearings and your all set.
You need a 17" pulley (540 PTO side) and a 2.5" pulley (attached to the pump).
some drive shafts and bearings and your all set.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
If your heart is set on the M for power why not get a PTO pump to replace the current pump
Connect the one high pressure line and one suction line and the wrench/messy work is complete.
Then Connect the pump to the PTO and connect the torque chain and your ready to split wood.
Connect the one high pressure line and one suction line and the wrench/messy work is complete.
Then Connect the pump to the PTO and connect the torque chain and your ready to split wood.
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