My dad was a Fireman on Pennsylvania Railroad .

[Geo-TH,In]

My dad was born in 1920 and in the early 1940's when in his early 20's he lived in Fort Wayne, In and worked on the Pennsylvania RR that ran into Chicago.
He would say the best way to make coal fire burn faster is to add steam.
AS a kid, I didn't understand. I thought adding steam, water, would put a fire out.
Adding steam to hot coal is actually producing hydrogen gas.

Who would have thunk the old steam engines were the engine of the future hydrogen powered? LOL

They claim that adding steam to any carbon fuel, including wood, would make hydrogen.

The chemistry of making hydrogen isn't simple one step process. All the same end result my dad was making hydrogen using coal and steam.

To produce hydrogen from coal, the process begins with partial oxidation, which means some air is added to the coal, which generates carbon dioxide gas through traditional combustion. Not enough is added, though, to completely burn the coal only enough to make some heat for the gasification reaction.

Carbon dioxide reacts with the rest of the carbon in the coal to form carbon monoxide (this is the endothermic gasification reaction, which needs heat input). No hydrogen yet. Carbon monoxide in the gas stream is now further reacted with steam, generating hydrogen and carbon dioxide. Now we are making some hydrogen.

Steam engines show up at festivals usually powering a sawmill.
Does any use steam to get the fire in the steam engine burning faster? I'm sure you have to work with a hot bed of coals for this to work.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

I doubt it. I'm not even sure they run the engines at full pressure. They don't need a real hot fire because they're just demonstrating for the public, not trying to meet a time table.

 

[M-MAN]

The problem I see is water. We have to have it to survive and many places in the world are already in short supply. Anything the gw folks come up with that consumes more is just going to multiply the problem. I'm sure the future will see war's over the water supply. It happened in our early days with farmers and ranchers. Next time it will be states and countries.

 

[DoubleO7]

="Geo-TH,In"](reply to post at 11:01:12 08/04/21)

In the other thread you started in tales, you eventually lamented "why are we even discussing hydrogen?" .

And here you are starting a thread in Ttalk discussing hydrogen again.

So are you gonna convert your tractor to burn hydrogen or what?

 

[cdmn]

We burn wood in ours. It was manufactured in 1914 to haul sugar beets. It got put to work
in WWI and WWII, because the military used the same gage of track. In the late 40's it was
used in Germany and Eastern France to clean up bomb damage. They served the same purpose as
dump trucks.

 

[Janicholson]

Please cite the sources for this hydrogen combustion claim. The hydrogen in water is already burnt. Un burning it takes thermal energy from the combustion of carbon/hydrogen from burning coal, or other carbon based fuel like diesel, or gasoline (hydrocarbons). Once the dissociated elements are free in the combusting fuel environment, their only avenue for adding heat is to re-oxidize (burn). This dissociation/reburning is more energy costly than energy producing. The water injectors on Locomotives are primarily used to maintain boiler water levels. From current research into every modern use of water/steam injection into the combustion reaction the purpose is to accomplish one of two things, or maybe both. Controlled water injection reduces flame temperature which increases knock resistance, and decreases Nitrous oxide production. (see gas turbine power generator research, Coal fluidized bed combustors, Rumely Oil Pull, and turbo charged piston aircraft engines). The second reason is to add power. Not from burning hydrogen, but by the effect of increased mass of the fuel, and its expansion in the super critical heat/pressure range. Fuel consumption increases, efficiency goes down a few %. but actual power output can increase above the level without the injection of water. Pulling harder, using more fuel same engine. Jim

 

[John T]

Not to worry, some all wise all knowing self appointed, always correct, Fact Checker will let us know the answer soon Im sure lol

John T NOT any hydrogen or steam expert, maybe an expert or at least some fine gent who has and takes the time to research it will educate us. Hope so. In the meantime, God Bless all here, be safe be kind, BE HAPPY

 

[racered57]

(quoted from post at 10:27:24 08/04/21) Not to worry, some all wise all knowing self appointed, always correct, Fact Checker will let us know the answer soon Im sure lol

John T NOT any hydrogen or steam expert, maybe an expert or at least some fine gent who has and takes the time to research it will educate us. Hope so. In the meantime, God Bless all here, be safe be kind, BE HAPPY

Well, sometime all wise all knowing self appointed, always correct, Fact Checker here at your service,,,
I was told by an old timer that steam was used to help increase the draft through the fire box when needed by sending it out the exhaust pipe, notice the exhaust has a venturi shape.
Seems plausible that a rapidly expanding gas above the pinch area would induce more scavenge? eh?
Good Day!

 

[John T]

Thanks, hey that sounds reasonable to me and agrees with many others I have heard around old steam tractor shows !!!!!

Nice chatting with you take care now

John T

 

[Steve@Advance]

racered57, yes, the locomotive engines, and any steam engine that displays the traditional 'puffing' out the stack is using the exhaust steam to induce scavenging through the fire box. Even when you se one stopped and an occasional burst of exhaust smoke, that's the steam powered air compressor cycling.

And they may very well have injected steam into the fire box. They never missed a trick to improve the efficiency of those old engines!

Makes sense that adding a little water to the combustion would give it a boost. Just like any hotrod will run noticeably better on a cold damp day.

There used to be an add-on contraption for gas engines, probably back in the 30's-60's that was a glass jar under the hood that metered in a small amount of water to the intake. Supposed to boost mileage and power. Must have been something to it, it was around for a long time! Never understood how it didn't freeze, maybe it used alcohol antifreeze.

And I've heard the early jet bombers used water injection on take off, when the black smoke was bellowing and the sound was deafening!

I don't know how it works, but would think it would have something to do with the water going crazy when the fire lights, multiplying the expansion!

 

[Geo-TH,In]

Chemistry 101.
Ways to make hydrogen gas.
making hydrogen 101

 

[MarkB_MI]

George, it sounds like the 'steam methane reforming' processs you brought up earlier for hydrogen production. I think it's a fairly big leap to assume that's what was happening in your dad's locomotive. For one thing, the steam used in methane reforming is far hotter than the steam in a locomotive boiler. (700°C is about 1300°F)
The other issue is that adding more fuel isn't going to generate much heat since there's already plenty of fuel in the firebox. It needs oxygen, not hydrogen to burn hotter. And the amount of hydrogen available in a shot of steam is going to be fairly small, since a little bit of water makes a lot of steam.

I don't claim to know how adding steam to the firebox worked for your dad. There are a lot of things going on here; for example the steam is going to release a huge amount of heat in the firebox that might somehow increase the heat transfer from the burning coal to the boiler.

I can't find any reference to adding steam to a locomotive firebox. I have found references to 'steam injectors', which were once used to add water to boilers, but not to the fire.

 

[Geo-TH,In]

What happens when steam is passed through red hot coke?
Ans: When steam is passed through red hot coke, carbon monoxide and hydrogen gases are obtained.
CO is also a fuel. In the steel mill coke ovens heated coal to make coke. CO was called coke oven gas and burned in the steel mill's power plant.
The second half of the reaction, CO can also combine with more steam forming CO2 and H2.

From a chemistry stand point hot coke, C, plus steam H2O forms CO plus H2
the second half of the equation.
CO plus steam H20 forms CO2 plus another H2
Chemists think of this as a two set reaction.

Ask a chemist if water and hot carbon can't be converted into 2H2 and CO2.

I'm going to take my dad's word that adding steam to hot coal really works.

You can believe what you want.

Water can be converted into Hydrogen.

I seriously doubt you can google any information about 80 year old steam engines and adding steam to fire boxes.

My dad passed 35 years ago.

Doubt if there are any Fireman still alive. It wasn't long after I was born, steam engines were replaced by diesel engines. I still remember seeing steam engines pulling grain cars to Chicago.

 

[DoubleO7]

="Geo-TH,In"](reply to post at 11:01:12 08/04/21)

"He would say the best way to make coal fire burn faster is to add steam."

Yes that is true, some of the steam, after going thru the engine drive cylinders was piped into the exhaust stack.
In a way that increased the venturi effect, thus increasing the draft flow. Which pulled more air into the firebox thru the bottom grates.
And so the coal fire burns hotter but faster.

Just like a blacksmiths forge fire does.

 

[GordoSD]

didn't Eustis on Mountain Men have a wood fired water steam truck?

 

[Crazy Horse]

MM ..... not sure if the water used in this example would really apply to the water shortage (or future shortage) issue BUT your comments about how important it is and what might happen in the future over it is 100% spot on. I think we are just starting to see the consequences of the decrease in the supply of fresh water.

 

[Billy NY]

Wood Gasification, it ran on wood chips. Eustace, is quite the character, I enjoyed the show from a learning perspective, always something interesting going on.

 

[Timmycornpicker]

Some locomotives had mechanical stokers, in which a steam jet was used to help spread the coal in the firebox as it came out of the stoker. It also helped the
fines in the coal 'stick' in the firebox where they burned instead of blowing out the flues as sparks. As said, cylinder exhaust steam was piped to the stack to
make draft, but on late steam-era 'super power' locomotives with their extremely large grate areas, there were also overfire steam jets in the firebox that
created even greater venturi effect to pull more oxygen up through the burning coal.

 

[MarkB_MI]

> I'm going to take my dad's word that adding steam to hot coal really works.

George, I'm not disputing what your father told you. I'm questioning your explanation of how it works. Is that the explanation Pops gave you back in the day, or is it a theory you came up with on the fly? Or did you get it from a reliable (or maybe not-so-reliable) source?

> Doubt if there are any Fireman still alive.

Probably very few survive from the glory days of steam. But there are plenty of steam locomotives still in operation, and the folks who operate them should be familiar with all their features. I visited the C&O Railway Heritage Center in Clifton Forge, VA last year, and was surprised to find one of its steam locomotives, <a href=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake_and_Ohio_614>614</a> was pulling coal trains as recently as 1985!

If you make it up to Michigan some time, be sure to visit the <a href=https://www.michigansteamtrain.com/>Steam Railroading Institute</a> in Owosso. They usually have one of their locomotives in the shop and you can take a close look at the insides of whatever they're working on. I'll bet those guys would know about adding steam to the firebox.

 

[MarkB_MI]

> As said, cylinder exhaust steam was piped to the stack to make draft, but on late steam-era 'super power' locomotives with their extremely large grate areas, there were also overfire steam jets in the firebox that created even greater venturi effect to pull more oxygen up through the burning coal.

That seems like a reasonable explanation. Here's a discussion about the overfire steam jets; apparently their main purpose was to reduce smoke while stopped.
Overfire steam jet discussion

 

[Geo-TH,In]

Timmycornpicker,

Thank you for confirming what my DAD said. If people here can't google the answer, then they conclude I was wrong.
STEAM was added to the firebox.

BTY, air pollution requirements went back to the 1940's.

Dad said he needed to have a head of steam before he got to Chicago. Chicago didn't want smoke coming from the exhaust. Then when he left Chicago he used steam to get the coal burning faster.

 

[DoubleO7]

(quoted from post at 19:05:16 08/04/21) MM ..... not sure if the water used in this example would really apply to the water shortage (or future shortage) issue BUT your comments about how important it is and what might happen in the future over it is 100% spot on. I think we are just starting to see the consequences of the decrease in the supply of fresh water.

But, but, but.....
Is water ever really destroyed or consumed???
The "Hydrologic (water) cycle" principle says no.

i.e. it just goes round and round, evaporating, condensing, falling back to earth. To be filtered and purified by earth over and over for eons.

About the only loss is by humans using modern technology to crack water into it's molecular components of hydrogen and oxygen.

 

[Ozlander]

(quoted from post at 05:54:59 08/05/21) &gt; As said, cylinder exhaust steam was piped to the stack to make draft, but on late steam-era 'super power' locomotives with their extremely large grate areas, there were also overfire steam jets in the firebox that created even greater venturi effect to pull more oxygen up through the burning coal.

That seems like a reasonable explanation. Here's a discussion about the overfire steam jets; apparently their main purpose was to reduce smoke while stopped.
Overfire steam jet discussion

Thanks, I learned something new today. Always good to do that.

 

[Geo-TH,In]

Mark
is it possible steam and hot CO combine to complete the conversion of carbon to hydrogen?
CO plus steam (H2O) yields CO2 plus H2???
I have a cousin that graduated form
Rose Hulman, pirvate engineering school. Google Rose Hulman.
He is the best combustion engineer I know.
He's been working for a boil company in Chicago for decades.

When I see him, I'll see what he thinks about adding steam to a coal fire.

 

[MarkB_MI]

> is it possible steam and hot CO combine to complete the conversion of carbon to hydrogen?
> CO plus steam (H2O) yields CO2 plus H2???

Well, sure, almost anything is possible. But I don't thing you really meant 'conversion of carbon to hydrogen'. You'd need to split a few atoms to pull that off.