Need help identifying my injection pump

[Bob Doss]

The attached pictures are the injection pump on my JD350. According to jdparts.com, it SHOULD be a John Deere AR69817 (Roosa-Master JDB331AL2732).

The id plate is missing, so I can't be sure what pump I really have.

It has the "mouse turds" in it that jdemaris describes in other postings, so I need to repair it somehow, but I need to know where to start.

1. Can anyone confirm what kind of pump it is?

2. Do I need to do a complete rebuild to solve the "mouse turds" problem, or can I just replace the damaged part(s)?

 

[Anonymous-0]

It is a Roosa Master

 

[Bob Doss]

Thanks, but can you say for sure whether it's a JDB series?

As I understand it, the JDB series is newer, and therefore rebuildable. If it's NOT a JDB, then the rebuild parts are no longer available, and my pump is junk.

(My understanding may be wrong, but I think I got it from other postings on this board).

 

[LJD]

It's a Stanadyne/Roosamaster D series pump. Early ones are model DB and later ones (on Deere) are JDB. Both are pretty much the same pumps and all parts are available.

It's the Stanadyne C series that no parts are available for.

The repair parts you need will be the same, regardless if a DB or a JDB.

Model 350 (not B or C) came with many CDC and CBC pumps. The D pumps on 350s are these:
DBGFC331-2DH (AT18035)
DBGFC331-13DH (AT21576)
DBGFC331-1AJ (AT21576)
JDB331AL2732 (AR69817)
JDB331MD2797 (AR49899)

 

[NCWayne]

Looks like a Roosa Master. If the ball check on top is getting clogged with "mouse turds" as you call them then it's because of a coupling inside coming apart. I see horror stories on here all the time about the engine running away, etc due to the coupling finally coming all the way apart but have never seen it happen. In reality I have knocked the check ball out of quite a few of them over the years to get the customer running "temporarily" and seen them run for years and years with no problems because the customer never took the time to get the pump repaired.

That said you can knock the ball out and take the chance or go ahead and pull the pump and have it rebuilt. To pull the pump remove the two coutersunk screwes in the rectangular plate right behind where the tag should be. There will be one fixed line visible in thew window and another that will rotate into view as the engine is turned over. Turn the engine until the two lines are aligned together. Remove all the lines from the outside of the pump and then remove the two nuts holding the pump to the engine. With the two nuts removed slowly pull the pump straight back and off the drive shaft. When you replace it go ahead and replace the two umbrella seals that you'll see on the drive shaft. You might want to get 4 of the seals instead of just two. The one that installs with the 'bottom' of the umbrella facing the pump is easy to mess up, so be very carefull going over it. Once you have the seals installed on the shaft give them a good coat of oil and then carefully work the pump back over the drive shaft, bolt it back up, install the lines, etc, etc. Hope this helps.

 

[NCWayne]

Almost forgot. Make sure before you pull the pump that you have a mark on both the pump flange and where it mounts to the engine. The mounting holes are slotted and if you don't put the pump back in the same spot it will throw it out of time. Often times there will be a fixed mark on either the back of the engine or a line on the pump but if not then go ahead and make your own mark on both.

Don't know where your located but if you can't find anyone to rebuild it, try Carolina Diesel Svc in Charlotte. Between Dad and myself we've been taking pumps to them for nearly 30 years and they always do quality work at a fair price. Their number is 704-376-8969. You'll probably talk to either Bobby, the owner, or Harold who has been there 'forever'. Both are very knowledgable and are always glad to help in any way they can.

 

[LJD]

To repair without upgrading - at the least you'll need a seal kit, pilot tube, housing pressure regulator, and a wrench to get the pump apart.

If you want to upgrade and eliminate that plastic ring, you need an upgraded dampener that will cost you an extra $50.

Stanadyne # 24371 or Spaco U24371 is the complete seal kit that comes with the new plastic dampener and all seals. Cost around $14.

JDB pilot tube (bronze bushing) - Stanadyne # 16320 - Spaco U16320 $6. This is the bronze bushing in the front of the pump. The two shaft umbrella seals ride against it and it WILL need replacing. The old bushing will have ridges worn into it that makes reinstalling new umbrella seals difficult, and sometimes impossible.

Housing-Pressure-regulator valve - # 15830. This is the fitting that screws into the pump cover, and has a steel flare fitting on it that hooks to the fuel-return line. This is the part that plugs and has the glass ball inside of it. It maintains 6 PSI pressure inside the pump. Costs around $7.
Obviously when the ball gets poked out of it to force a machine to run, it no longer regulates the housing pressure.

New EID setup is $55 and # 29111. This is the upgrade that eliminates the plastic dampener ring
forever. It's sold as an "EID" but it's not. It is solid aluminum and works fine.

You'll need one special wrench of some sort. It really calls for a 6 tooth Brisol wrench. Stanadyne # 15499. Costs around $8 when you can find it. Some people grind down a Torx T-45 and make it work. I don't recommend it, but many say it worked OK for them.

If you run that pump with a broken plastic ring, the governor cage is hammering steel against steel and sending metal flakes all through the pump. Eventually it will seize and at that point, can cost well over $1200 to fix. It's a foolish gamble not to fix, considering the prices on the major parts these days , IF you can find them. Just the input shaft alone is now well over $100 - and on some 350s it is no longer available. That shaft is designed to snap in two when the pump gets trouble and turns hard.

 

[Penn]

Dissconnect the battery,turn the engine by hand till the mark on the flywheel and the mark through the timing window on the pump line up,then remove the pump,do not move the engine till the pump is back on,take it to the fuel injection shop where they will clean it properly,replace worn parts,reseal and test it,line the marks in the pump up and fit it back on,bleed and start,that way you won"t have a runaway or a leg out of bed.
P

 

[LJD]

Anybody with mechanical skills and a manual can fix one of those pumps in a few hours. The people who work inside the "secret" walls of injection pump shops are not magicians and often know less about engines in general then the people who turn wrenches on them.

Granted that with the newer electronic systems a lot of high tech equipment is needed. NOT so with these little mechanical distributor pumps that were invented in the early 1950s.

If a person can't successfully pull apart a magneto, carb, tractor engine, OR injection pump - then I suspect mechanical skills are lacking OR money is no object and the person just lacks interest in fixing him/her self.

But since this is a forum where many DO have skills and use them, the repair is worth discussing. A typical shop charges $300 to $800 for what amounts to . . . 2 hours work and $50 in new parts.

 

[Bob Doss]

LJD,

Sounds like you've picked up the "pump shops charge too much" banner from jdemaris >)

I have the skills, but can't find a manual. Do you (or anyone else) know where to find the manual?

(preferably a free download, but I don't mind paying a reasonable price if I have to).

 

[LJD]

I AM jdemaris. Just had to change my username since I was having trouble logging in here.

Yes, I've got the manual in PDF but it's big and it will crash my satellite uplink if I try to send from here.

Probably easier to download it here if it's still working:

Go to this link and then click on "IP PDF" It is 214 megabytes so I hope you've got a good Internet connection.

http://www.getdieselpower.com/misc/tractors/JD310A/Injection_Pump/IP_Manual/

 

[Bob Doss]

YAYYYYY!

Welcome back! (you probably never left, but some people thought you did).

The link still works -- I just downloaded the manual successfully.

My goal is NOT necessarily to rebuild the entire pump, but just do the minimum work that makes good sense.

1. Since I'm going to disassemble the pump to get to the damaged retaining ring, what else would you recommend that I replace along the way?

2. Do I need ANY of the special tools to do just that minimum amount of work?

Thanks a lot for helping me now, and for all the help in your other postings over the years.

 

[LJD]

I think that manual is over $100 from Deere, so you got off cheap.

The list of part #s I already posted should be all you need. US Diesel sells and ships the parts to anyone. You only need one special tool as I already described. There is one bolt in the pump that has a Bristol head on it. That means you need a 6 tooth Bristol wrench to get it out. The wrench only costs $5-$10 if you can find it. Some people claim they took standard Torx T-45 bits, ground them down a bit and made them work. I've never tried so can't comment one way or the other.

The wrench is part # 15499 from Stanadyne or Deere (Deere stopped selling it).

It has six teeth, roughly 5/16" on the OD of the
splines (.312”), and 1/4" on the ID. Or 8 mm OD and 6.3 MM ID. The teeth are square cut.

Torx T-45 measures .306” OD and the teeth are rounded.

Torx DOES make a special IP series that looks almost identical to a Bristol Called a Torx T45IP.

Bristol still makes the wrenches also and sell a lot of hardware to the miltary.

This is a Bristol wrench . .

<a href="http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/jdemaris/?action=view&amp;current=Bristol1.jpg" target="_blank">

</a>

This is the Bristol wrench from Deere and Stanadyne . .

<a href="http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/jdemaris/?action=view&amp;current=Bristolwrench2.jpg" target="_blank">

</a>

This is a regular Torx with rounded teeth . .

<a href="http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/jdemaris/?action=view&amp;current=T45Torxbit.jpg" target="_blank">

</a>

This is a Torx IP series . . .

<a href="http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/jdemaris/?action=view&amp;current=Torx45IP.jpg" target="_blank">

</a>

<a href="http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m162/jdemaris/?action=view&amp;current=TorxplusIPserie.jpg" target="_blank">

</a>

 

[Bob Doss]

I'm planning to repair my pump the way LJD recommends, and will post any useful info I learn along the way.

It just started snowing here, though, so I don't know when I'll be able to work on it.

Meanwhile, for others following this thread I found a source for the Bristol wrench at www.mgs4u.com. I can't be sure until I get one and try it, but it looks like the correct one would be their P/N S-291-6 for $7.49 +s/h.

Thanks to everyone for helping me get started.

 

[steve n carol]

(quoted from post at 17:51:11 11/29/11) I'm planning to repair my pump the way LJD recommends, and will post any useful info I learn along the way.

It just started snowing here, though, so I don't know when I'll be able to work on it.

Meanwhile, for others following this thread I found a source for the Bristol wrench at www.mgs4u.com. I can't be sure until I get one and try it, but it looks like the correct one would be their P/N S-291-6 for $7.49 +s/h.

Thanks to everyone for helping me get started.

Very Good!!

JD,
in preparing to rebuild the pump on my CASE 450, I've been collecting your info for a while. Thank you.... and thank you for the link to the manual.

Bob, looking forward to our update.

 

[LJD]

I just had to do the pump on my Case 580CK backhoe and 310G crawler. 188D and a 207D. I'm sure same as what your 450 crawler has.