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New Moline Head

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  • Thread starter Thread starter LW
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LW

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New moline heads will becoming available in the summer. Ports are laid out very well. Should work really good, looking forward too it.
 
I don't think so. Moline's are one of the most repressed brands in antique pulling. They have rules about all kinds of parts you can't use.
 
And why is that? It's because so many of the motor parts are interchangeable, like the 800 jugs. I don't have any sympathy for the repression you speak of. And don't get me started on the recast jugs!!
 
I am also very excited about these new heads and happy to be involved with the sales and marketing of them as they come available. They have met NATPA approval and I hope to have a sample available at Sigourney and Lincoln events for you midwest guys to see. On a side note, you can have a recast head and block for a two cyl JD as well as a recast 5 main block and the recast 450 head for an IHC along with a variety of other manifolds and parts available today. Original outside appearance is the key. Looking at the calendar, we are all the way to 2014 already. Things have came along way in the last 10-20 years. Sincerely, Jeff Gravert

Gravert Restoration
2045 21st Rd
Central City, NE 68826
308-940-0255
 
All I hear is " my brand isn't adequate so less control another", truly competitive people step up and work harder. Everything can be done with stock tractor parts it just cost more. No moline guys cried about 450 heads and JD blocks and heads... this is no different then many things in the world today...
 
The Super Farm Class has head limits within organizations. All other classes at the national level allow an aftermarket head of some sort.
 
I assume these heads will require either high RPMs OR substantial increase in displacement for full potential? And if other brands can use recast heads and blocks its only fair that all brands can...The big M engines had a long reign ousting the Olivers years ago...Whats in store for Oliver mods in the future? I like all brands but some more than others...more colors in the same class that competitive makes for a better show.
 
So now all that matters is original appearing? Why is there even an age limit on antiques if were developing these high performance recast motors for a 1957 or older tractor. I get along great with the Missouri 5 stars(Gary and Daryl) but nobody like the 88's and M's want to pull Div. 4 because they don't think they have a chance. The 400 cases are coming after them, with all legal "Case" parts!! Craig Harm.
 
A number of the Moline guys I know may not have cried about the Deere and Farmall parts, but they did cry about not being able to use tall jugs and 800HD heads. But as has been proven in NATPA div. 4, they can more than run with the other brands without these parts.
 
Jeff you say these heads have already met NATPA approval? Who makes these kind of decisions? I guess that doesn't have to be voted on by the membership. Craig
 
That may be, but I'm pretty sure when the Ole Black Magic and Midnight Screamer put recast heads on and running really good they had to take them off?
 
Or the solid cast iron jugs with the big pistons. This family of four and six cylinder engines were always the easiest engines to build huge cubic inches.
 
I don't really have a problem one way or the other with the heads, Hopefully someday someone will do the case heads that are so hard to find. I understand the molines are much more popular though.
 
I did a little research and you are right about recast JD and IH parts. Not sure if any of it should have ever been allowed. I guess it just comes down to who wants to spend the most money on recast parts.
 
Craig they should have them back on. With the Heims head, the hyper head and another head or two floating around out there the floodgate is open, especially in 4.1 and the Light Pro classes.
 
Case , are you pi$$ing and moaning because someone got off their dead butt and spent 20k and a year of research and came up with something original ?? Sure sounds like it. Why don't you do it, and right the world, since its so unfair.
 
Andy, I think you are being a little hard on Craig. I know both of you guys and some of Craigs comments have some merit like the NATPA approval question. When someone waves the bs flag on here they immediately get branded as a whiner or a crybaby and that isn't right.We all ought to be able to express our views right wrong or otherwise. None of us own this site. Maybe some recast 870 heads are needed to even the playing field. YT has plenty of jerks on here, don't lower yourself to their level. I do know that some of the people who hide behind their handles and ought to ask what happened to the last person that told me to FO at a tractor pull
 
Andy, be nice! Craig is talking about aluminum jugs witch are not approved by NATPA. Not all of the molines are using them but a couple are.
 
*big sigh* oooooook....Im sorry, CASE.

If they arent approved, they shouldnt be there.

But, it seems that the general complaint is that its "not fair" cause someone did their homework and came up with something good. Everybody thinks they are entitled these days..

It is the sanctioning bodys responsibility to enforce the rules. I dont mind them being bent,if they are bent for everyone equally.

BTW Gary, I put 25 miles on my bike today :)
 
I talked to NATPA tech when starting this project. I was told at that time that as long as it is available to anyone and it looks original on the outside that they would pass it to be legal....made from cast iron of course.

I'd like to build Case heads Farmall also, but does anyone care to guess how much work this is? How much money it costs? What to do when another problem arises?

If someone's serious about Case heads I'd help them, if their pockets are deep enough I'll get the ball rolling and get port / chamber development underway, get them a model head made, get the patterns started and in time everything will come together.

If anyone's seriously interested and wants to put their money where their mouth is, they could own the patterns for these Moline heads, there's money to be made selling heads or burn the patterns and keep them off the market. Give me $$,$$$ and I could care less what you do.

Talk is cheap, the reality is someone (me) went through the process to bring this idea to a reality. It's my project and there are a few people right for the job to move the product. Jeff And Lawrence will be selling the heads. They will set the price. I made the decision to give them each a finished head to have as a showpiece. I also am providing them with a set for use, R&D purposes and for some lucky pullers to be the first ones running them. It is just another added cost to the development process but necessary to sell them. I can't take peoples $$$$ and sell hot air and BS like a few here do.

I have expectations that this new head will be an advantage over anything else available. It should surpass the 800 heads and I hope that it becomes a part that is needed for a competitive edge with any association.
 
(quoted from post at 01:41:46 03/08/14) I talked to NATPA tech when starting this project. I was told at that time that as long as it is available to anyone and it looks original on the outside that they would pass it to be legal....made from cast iron of course.

I'd like to build Case heads Farmall also, but does anyone care to guess how much work this is? How much money it costs? What to do when another problem arises?

If someone's serious about Case heads I'd help them, if their pockets are deep enough I'll get the ball rolling and get port / chamber development underway, get them a model head made, get the patterns started and in time everything will come together.

If anyone's seriously interested and wants to put their money where their mouth is, they could own the patterns for these Moline heads, there's money to be made selling heads or burn the patterns and keep them off the market. Give me $$,$$$ and I could care less what you do.

Talk is cheap, the reality is someone (me) went through the process to bring this idea to a reality. It's my project and there are a few people right for the job to move the product. Jeff And Lawrence will be selling the heads. They will set the price. I made the decision to give them each a finished head to have as a showpiece. I also am providing them with a set for use, R&D purposes and for some lucky pullers to be the first ones running them. It is just another added cost to the development process but necessary to sell them. I can't take peoples $$$$ and sell hot air and BS like a few here do.

I have expectations that this new head will be an advantage over anything else available. It should surpass the 800 heads and I hope that it becomes a part that is needed for a competitive edge with any association.
Click to expand...
I would not worry about the ones crying they will always be out there. I am realy wanting to see these heads take off.
 
Oh I'm not worried. Not about the crybabies, or the product
taking off.
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a148371.jpg
 
Well apparently I don't understand the wording of NATPA Div.4 and 5 rule #10. Stock block(jug) and head or manufacturer's replacement. So Marty can develop these heads and Dieselbear the jugs in your shops and that is O.K.? Also on the Deeres all it says is Power Blocks, nothing about the big Murphy blocks?
 
very true /funny thjng is a 88 block can be made bigger than a 99 our 1100 block' just make rules so pullers with a budget cant compete,
 
Wow, there is alot here since yesterday. Let me see if I can help with a few of these topics:

Head design and useage: These heads are designed for a large displacement engine. Something in the 5.5"-6" bore range will cover the chamber best. Could they be used on a smaller bore, high RPM engine, sure, probably not as effectively as a large bore. I would see absolutely no reason to buy or use these heads on a stock engine.

Recast parts: Right or wrong they are here and not going away. It is way too late to put the lid back on that jar. It started along time ago M&W, Heisler, Johnson manifolds etc. The neat thing with NATPA is, if you dont want to compete against recast parts, there are divisions for that. Div 1 and 2. In those divisions, if you want to use a 450 LP head, it needs to be bolted to a true 450 LP tractor, not an M. If you want to use 800 MM heads, move to Div 5. they are perfectly legal there. Are aluminum jugs for MM available, Yes, are they NATPA legal, NO. I hope to see these heads available in aluminum also. Is that NATPA legal, NO. Is there ALOT of tractor pulling and a market way bigger than the NATPA, yes.

NATPA approval of these heads: In reading the NATPA general rules #25 it reads "All replacement parts must meet current board approval" I called the number for a rules question, explained my questions and concerns for these heads. A reasonable amount of time later I had a return phone call with a confirming answer. I dont know who or how many people are involved with that answer. I asked a question, I got an answer. There are several numbers listed on their website if anyone would like to chase it down any further.

Other brands: Guys,recasting these parts is a cyclical thing, first the JD's made some parts, then the IHC now the Molines. As Marty stated earlier, there is alot of time and money to bring such a product to the table. In this example, it is all his time and money, not mine, not the folks that are complaining. I would like to see a version of this head for a 4.81" bore MM engine. Then maybe a Case head. The Olivers need a boost. There is nothing sexier than a Fleetline Oliver. Gary Baker has made huge strides with his Case and I think that is awesome.

That is all I have time for since we are leaving to go pull in Norfolk in about 2 minutes. Jeff Gravert 308-940-0255
 
To prove your point why don't you take an F-20 and make it run with a 5 star? According to you all tractors can be made to compete with each other, all it takes is money and labor.
 
I'd like to but i'm not sure yet. Most of my money went into the shop I built. I'm waiting for a clutch disc which I hoped would be here Fri. It won't take long to put it back together If I get it Monday.
 
Yours always going to have people with deep pockets finding and spending money to take full advantage of very loose rules. Until rules get more tighter and tech rules are strengthen wide open is the way. Two secrets to making hp in a naturally aspirated engines . Is cubic inches and heads with larger csa to support higher cfm. Barney went to cast iron head sbc pulling. He found the old pro action 14 degree cast iron heads that came about when dirt track made a cast iron rule years ago thats no longer used in dirt track cause rule was lifted . Now everyone pulling against him due to the cast iron rules has made those heads valuable again. Until someone lifts cast iron rule or limits valve angle in that class it will continue to be the head to have . If they lift the cast iron and allow aluminum the 14 degree valve angle will still be the head to have in pulling cause the heads with less than 14 degree can make higher hp numbers its at the expense of torque. Just a anology for some to ponder.
 
My name is Bob DeBerg. I'm on the NATPA Board. Speaking for my self as far as I know we have not approved the MM heads at this time. Everyone has brought up great points and the pros and cons on this issue. We will meet on Friday March 27th at the Missouri pull and we will go over this and some other issues that need to be addressed. I'm going to contact Craig on this and get more input.

Thank You
 
I don"t think an F-20 is as good of a comparison as is an F-30/10-20/W-30 with center main. The one that Hutson built has showed up recently at Sigourney and has been impressive.

I have no dog"s in this hunt, but I agree with those who have issues with re-cast parts to a degree. I do look forward to having track side discussions about what should/should not be legal.
 
I guess if it is original appearing on the outside and is offered for sale to others the tech committee will allow parts to be used and does not have to be v oted on by the members.
 

So help me understand this. I'm a John Deere guy. Farm with all green, if I wanted to build a pulling tractor to compete in the NATPA and run around to the winter events I could buy a new head and a block, manifold, and show up with my new pulling tractor and be legal to get my butt spanked in Div 4.

So if my goal was to do as good as I could with a 2 cyl JD I would be legal per the NATPA rules.

What if my goal was to try and be competitive? I'd skip the 2 cyl and build a Farmall M. I could go buy a 5 main block. I could buy a dang nice cylinder head that is made with much improved porting and chamber. I would skip the re casted 450 heads, skip the Lemons head. I'd go right for a different one that I've seen with my very own eyes....it's a pretty nice piece of hardware. Expensive but better than any other option. I'd either be legal, or maybe I wouldn't, but no one would care. Would they even look at me or pay attention?

If I wanted to try and dominate, I'd build a Case. Superior to the Moline chassis, gearing selection and the engine is much stronger. The heads are better than the offerings for the Moline as to date. If I fill that Case head and port it correctly I can surpass the Moline heads if I were to do the same thing to the original castings. I'd leave the F20 in the shed. You wouldn't show up with a Waterloo Boy either.

So I want to build a Moline, they have this new head available the sheer size to be able to take advantage of it. Someone built this head, just as someone did the Farmall or the JD. Those parts are legal.

I've done some of the R&D on making a new Case head, but I have not pulled the trigger on the project yet. The wheels have been turning for some time. Would it cut the sales of the Moline? Would people not buy a Moline part if the Case were available? Would it increase the sales of the Moline head? You'll need one to keep up.

I did the Moline first, it's the quickest to sell enough to begin to brake even on the initial investment.

Weather or not it's NATPA legal probably won't make much difference on how many a guy sells. There's people who will buy it because they pull other places other then the NATPA. The'll just skip the NATPA events, or show up anyway and hope to not get caught. So now by not having a "legal" part, the NATPA just cut some time out of the show. I'm not dealing with a huge volume of parts here that will be strictly NATPA.

I talked to other people who have made re casted parts, they made them and were passed to be legal. They made a part to look OEM and made it for sale to be available for anyone. I talked to NATPA tech over a year ago and was told that it had to look OEM and be available to anyone, etc. No one said there'd be any problems. I talked to Gary Baker quite some time ago, not that he has any skin in the game, but I gave him a call to get his opinion.

If it's not legal, so be it. If it's legal, fine. If I've got the Case head wrapped up in another year, then what happens?
 
If it looks exactly like oem in outward appearance, I don't see how it can not be legal. Hows anybody going to know without tearing it down.
 
I did I took a Z Moline with a crank that goes in from the side a built 403 cid in it and 140hp... I have always will do what others say is not possible. Dynoed a V8 today that from 5800-6500 rpm was 100.2-100.3% volumetric efficient... You think the guys in that shop were questioning there skills when I pulled out the driveway???
I know they were when their customers were following me to my truck.
 
Im thinking about making the ride just to watch, if the weather looks promising. My little car gets good milage, Ive just been swamped this winter. There are a lot of people Id like to see and talk to for a while!
 
What"s the difference between a 6" bore recast jug and a stock jug with a sleeve welded in it? Quality and longevity is about it. The performance would be the same.
The head has the advantage of a better combustion chamber, but again, you can spend thousands to get moline heads the same way. Where is the advantage? Is it that no one is making heads or jugs for your brand, so no one can have them? Sounds a lot like Socialism to me.
 
Jon, My point is that not all tractors are created equal and have inherant limits to their full potential because of their designs and no matter how much work and money you invest you can not make everything equal once you hit the brick wall for that model and they all have one. As for building V8's anyone with a Summit or Jeg's catalog can do that.
 
THIS IS AWESOME! You want to know why I dont bring a tractor to any winter events? Its stuff like THIS RIGHT HERE.

" OMG 5 stars arent repressed, someone did alot of engineering on them and now they are like really hard to beat, and like ITS NOT FAIR"

Dont like it? Switch to a 5 star. Really dont like it? Do your homework, use the accepted rules, and make a better product for sale to the public. I stayed out of Div 4. Know why? I couldnt afford it. 350 Utilities get a whole lot of freaking RPMS. I cant compete with that at 2064. Guess Ill stick to Div3 or spend a bunch of money lightening up a D17. Do you hear me co plain? Nope. Such is life. Suck it up, dry it up.

"I run a case with all case parts" MEANING:" No one makes CRAP aftermarket for a case, or else id be running it." THATS YOUR DECISION.

Craig, Im sorry if I jumped down your throat in an earlier post. I dont know you. Im not picking on you. Even if I knew you, I wouldn't pick on you unless it was in fun. However, your comments are a perfect sum of what I see going on. You said them yourself, so dont be ashamed. They just happened to fit the picture im trying to develop. Yeah, I can see your point about alum blocks in a cast iron only class being a rules violation, but why all the hate over a mechanical advantage that someone else found? Maybe you can be the guy who develops something outstanding for your case. No one is stopping you. I bet you would want think it should be legal, too. (dont get me wrong, Im a closet case guy. Im FARMING this year with JI CASE.)

BUT...Remember the days when a person wanted to find something with an advantage? Nowadays, EVERYONE is awarded with a gold star JUST for competing. That way its fair for everyone. So, lets choose a brand, and make every other brand equal to it. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you weigh a beneficial side to a barren side, the beneficial side always looses by comparison. So, now that we've effectively lowered everyone else's standard so that you can compete, we also open the standard up to entitlement. "I want to pull my JD in Div 4, and its just not gonna be competitive! ITS NOT FAIR!" Oops time to limit EVERYONE ELSE, so that we dont offend anyone. How bout this..if you dont like it, switch brands or pull where your machine fits. Parity kills like a poison.

Its a nice thought to make it even for everyone, but as things evolve and get more competitive, you can throw that thought out the window. You have to if you want to make it TRULY FAIR for everyone. Andrew Curry 269 921 4686
 
I guess the easy thing to do it make sure they look factory on the outside. Then who"s gonna know if you keep your mouth shut? I"ll be damned if I tare down a motor just to suit a rules committee. They can get lost and I"ll go pull somewhere else if it comes to it.
Also, if someone is using these parts to pull div 1 2 or 3 they need to get a life and leave the little guy alone. These parts are built for those who want the baddest thing around and want to pay for it. What"s wrong with that?
 
Oh yeah go ahead and pull all those weight classes so you drive every small tractor back to division I, Great idea. Think about the other people who pull too, not just yourself.
 
Thanks Andy for coming out of the closet!!! lol
I heard today of someone building a 1200ci engine. I was a little concerned my 5 star would not keep up... Then they said it was a JD G and I started laughing... :wink: :wink: :P :twisted: :twisted: :evil: :evil:
 
Brand is inadequate? Gary's 400 is competing with or beating some of the baddest 5 stars out there with NO recast parts and 200 less cubic inches. Whose inadequate?
 
(reply to post at 17:10:14 03/09/14)
Click to expand...

Exactly, you fellas need to get it beat into your heads that cubes aren't everything. Airflow is alwayse more important than size.

All I ever read on here is how someone wants XXX hp and the reply is alwayse to add displacement. Only a few are bright enough to feed it first.

"it's a good thing the muel has blinders on, "cause we're about to load the wagon"

These heads are an advantage, but you're still going to need carb and manifolding or they're going to be useless. If you think you're goung to buy these and put them on a div 3 tractor, hold the throttle back and drive it, you're likely going to be disappointed to a certain extent.

I just hope we can load the wagon on the Div 4 and 5 tractors and the outlaw tractors.

I just hope someone brings one of those construction site magnets on wheels and a few bags of floor dry. If someone gets the setup right there may be parts on the track.
 
My comment was based on being competitive not winning, but twist it or take it as you will
 
Perfect post Andrew!

If I spend $10,000 grand, dominate for a year, then someone comes and starts consistently beating me, I don't whine about them beating me or even see how they are cheating. I just spend more money and beat them. It's the way it works. I don't understand being satisfied with a certain power level either. As a competitor I'm always looking to get more horsepower, go faster, etc. it's what hot ridding, tractor pulling and all motorsports are about. Jason McCann
 
Sounds to me like your whinning Andy! I have NEVER complained about aftermarket parts. Sence some of these tractors are 60+ years old, new parts for some brands are a must. MM heads at best are really bad. So are most tractor heads, so it only makes sence if going to all the trouble having heads remade why not try to make them better? I'm all for it!
Gary
 
I've never pulled or witnessed a high speed mph class ( 8-10-12??). Youll have to tell me what its like. Does it regulate well ? Is it hard to run up on the horn with all that momentum?
 
Me whine? Neverrrrrrrrrrrrr ;). But you also know that I'm not going to hold back or back down. I am simply stating that parity isnt the answer . I think it's great people are taking steps to make new stuff. It makes life sooooo much easier. I never said you complained. You of all people know how beneficial new parts are and how much time it saves. I'd like to see case heads developed because apperantly there is a ton of potential in a 400. The 5 star was ignored until the U's couldn't keep up with the M's you built. It's really not a better chassis that a U but the 200 more rpm make all the difference, since they are the same engines and components.

For the life of me I just can't see how people would dislike new blood putting new effort into these old machines. Even it it isn't your brand, every little bit helps keep life in the sport. Yeah it's not gonna fair for everyone. No matter what, someone will not be happy. But like I said , making everyone even is the most unfair to everyone, because someone is gonna suffer more.
 
If it"s decided to allow these heads I submit it"s time to change the rules for div. 2T, 3 & 4 and allow Olivers to use the Super 99 and 1600/1650 . They may not hold a candle to the new Moline heads, but they might close the gap until someone redesigns and produces a new Oliver head. They do have the "advantage" of being factory heads.
 
They should be allowed because other makes are already doing it. I don't pull NATPA, but would like to, but I don't know how you can let one make use after market pieces and say another can not.
 
I pulled some 8 mph classes at Tunica. There they give you almost half track before the cone so that wasn't to bad. I pulled a 6 mph jackpot class at Norfolk on Saturday and 75 foot comes awfully quick.
 
Yeah, 75 feet? Wayyyy to short! Half track would be better and plus would probably let more actual pulls complete because there would be less chance of a beep, and things wouldnt be so touchy. USAP seems to have good luck with it, I think.
 
How many times have you been to a pull and certain tractors either are running bad or air pressure is so low the rims are almost touching the ground or a number of other problems and this person is complaining about another tractor always winning. "Must be cheating they say" but that is usually the person that works everyday between pulls to make their winning tractor even better. The complainers never fix their own problems, just want others to come down to their level.
 
(quoted from post at 20:03:09 03/12/14) How many times have you been to a pull and certain tractors either are running bad or air pressure is so low the rims are almost touching the ground or a number of other problems and this person is complaining about another tractor always winning. "Must be cheating they say" but that is usually the person that works everyday between pulls to make their winning tractor even better. The complainers never fix their own problems, just want others to come down to their level.
Click to expand...

Tim is exactly right you can have the biggest baddest motor out there and if you can't set it up or read the track it won't do you any good, it may make it a little easier though
 

I got a good look at this head yesterday at the pull. The ports are awesome. Boy did MLpankey sure miss the boat on this one. He could have been the go to guy for them when Wi offered him the chance to prove himself.
 
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