Newly installed points do not close

[tractor gal]

The problems with points/distributor on the Ford N series seem to be endless, so bear with me if this issue has been addressed. I could not find anything.

My 2N is used for bush hogging. It was time for that job. However, the little sweetie wouldn't start...no spark. It has been idle since June this year. I was surprised with the no spark because it has run without problems for a while now...at least 1 1/2 years. My first thought was the distributor and coil. I purchase the whole shebangy and installed the points today. The old points didn't look bad but bad enough, I guess. ( The distributor is off the tractor...it is a 6V front mount distributor, by the way.) After installing the new points, I was having trouble getting the 0.015 gap set. It just wasn't cooperating. I finally got them set but in turning the tang, it just didn't seem right and worse still, the points were not fully closing! They would not touch regardless of what I tried with the adjustment screw.

When putting those points on, I noticed that it was really hard to get the half of the point set closest to the cam fully seated. I had to use quite a bit of pressure to get them down far enough so that both sides of the points would mate. I'm wondering if that post fit is so tight that those points won't easily move? I think I read somewhere that the distributor itself could be worn out although as I look at it, I'm not sure what I should notice. There is no wobble and the cams are easily visible. For a 1944 tractor, it's remarkable that it will run...once I get this issue fixed.

I have used the multimeter to verify all the continuity, etc., it's just that the points will not fully close. Any help or suggestion would be greatly appreciated. I do not know how to continue.

Tractor Gal

 

[Harry in Ky]

Classic example of what passes for "replacement" contact sets these days. NOBODY makes good, quality ignition parts any more. Some are better than others, but none are high quality. I suspect if you look closely at both this set and the old set you will see these are shaped differently somehow somewhere. Could be as simple as the rubbing block is too long and needs to have a little shaved off.

Personally, when I need points for something I go the the local NAPA store. They carry Blue Streak brand which has been fairly reasonable quality wise for me, plus if I don't like what I see it's an easy, no hassle return. With online suppliers that's a different story.

 

[old]

The problems with points/distributor on the Ford N series seem to be endless, so bear with me if this issue has been addressed. I could not find anything.

My 2N is used for bush hogging. It was time for that job. However, the little sweetie wouldn't start...no spark. It has been idle since June this year. I was surprised with the no spark because it has run without problems for a while now...at least 1 1/2 years. My first thought was the distributor and coil. I purchase the whole shebangy and installed the points today. The old points didn't look bad but bad enough, I guess. ( The distributor is off the tractor...it is a 6V front mount distributor, by the way.) After installing the new points, I was having trouble getting the 0.015 gap set. It just wasn't cooperating. I finally got them set but in turning the tang, it just didn't seem right and worse still, the points were not fully closing! They would not touch regardless of what I tried with the adjustment screw.

When putting those points on, I noticed that it was really hard to get the half of the point set closest to the cam fully seated. I had to use quite a bit of pressure to get them down far enough so that both sides of the points would mate. I'm wondering if that post fit is so tight that those points won't easily move? I think I read somewhere that the distributor itself could be worn out although as I look at it, I'm not sure what I should notice. There is no wobble and the cams are easily visible. For a 1944 tractor, it's remarkable that it will run...once I get this issue fixed.

I have used the multimeter to verify all the continuity, etc., it's just that the points will not fully close. Any help or suggestion would be greatly appreciated. I do not know how to continue.

Tractor Gal

Where did you buy the points from?? Good chance you have a set of points made in the land of almost right. I'd go to O'Reilly's or Napa and get new points

 

[Jim L WA]

The tractor sat since June in the heat of Summer. Did you check the battery voltage? If it isn't at least 6 volts, that could have been your no spark problem. If that's so, charge the battery and while it's charging, put the old points back in. In fact, I would put the old points back in anyway. Run a piece of brown paper bag through the contacts and try it again. Good Luck, and let us know.
Last year my '44 2N wouldn't start after sitting out the winter. No spark. Turned out to be the ignition switch.

 

[old]

The tractor sat since June in the heat of Summer. Did you check the battery voltage? If it isn't at least 6 volts, that could have been your no spark problem. If that's so, charge the battery and while it's charging, put the old points back in. In fact, I would put the old points back in anyway. Run a piece of brown paper bag through the contacts and try it again. Good Luck, and let us know.
Last year my '44 2N wouldn't start after sitting out the winter. No spark. Turned out to be the ignition switch.

I full charged 6 volt battery should read 6.3 volt to be at full charge. One at just 6 volts is at least 25% discharged

 

[DanielW]

Even the last set of Napa points I got for an N weren't perfect and had the same problem. The problem is how the steel is bent/formed at the factory (the bend circled in red in the picture below): Half the points for N's these days have this bend not quite square enough, with too large of a bend radius, or bent not quite at the correct angle to the base steel (they're still bent up 90 degrees, but facing a slightly incorrect angle). Usually you can make them workable by holding in a vice and prying/bending, and hammering with a flat-head screwdriver tip in the corner of the bend to make a more square bend. But best to just take a look at the points in the kit before you buy them - once you know what you're looking for you can spot bad sets pretty easily.

If you can't make the new ones work, I wouldn't worry about replacing them. The condensers go occasionally (but rarely), but the points typically last ages. Give the contact tips of your old set a quick stroke or two with a fine points file, re-set them, and you'll be golden. Some folks disagree with filing points, because some sets of new points have a hardened surface on them that you can scrub away if you file too vigorously. But folks got along fine filing their points for decades, and many folks (like me) still do. Just don't go too crazy - one or two light strokes to clean them up should suffice. Do that, put a good condenser on there, lube the cam slightly, and they should last years before you need to touch them again. But also be aware that new condensers can sometimes fail quickly: They just don't seem to make condensers that last anymore - even Blue Streak or other name brand ones can be hit-and-miss.

 

[Mad Farmer]

"I purchase the whole shebangy and installed the points today."

^^^^^ besides points what did that entail? Don't throw parts at a problem, especially cheap chi-com parts........

Cheap points are, cheap points. Even the "quality " ones are not what they were. I bought extra blue streaks last time just to have a spare.

ORielly's or NAPA should be still able to get a "quality" set of Standard/BlueStreak or Echlin. I think they are north of $20 now. As mentioned examine the new ones carefully. You might be able to NOS on places like Ebay.

In a pinch carefully dressing an old set of points so a feeler gauge so they will set flat when gapping, then setting timing with a meter will get you running OK in most cases for a while.

 

[tractor gal]

I purchased all the parts through Yesterday's Tractors...new coil, new distributor cap and gasket, new rotor, new point kit. These were all installed. I also purchased a new resistor but didn't install that yet. You'd think that would do it! The battery is new and tests at 6.35 so I know that is not the problem. There is not an ignition switch, per se, but just a flip up to turn on, but that may be something to check.

I'll give it some more checking tomorrow and maybe get a set of points from NAPA while I'm out today. Using the old points may be another option. We'll see but right now, I've got to get these points to close.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll report back but it will be a day or so.

Tractor Gal

 

[DanielW]

I purchased all the parts through Yesterday's Tractors...new coil, new distributor cap and gasket, new rotor, new point kit. These were all installed. I also purchased a new resistor but didn't install that yet. You'd think that would do it! The battery is new and tests at 6.35 so I know that is not the problem. There is not an ignition switch, per se, but just a flip up to turn on, but that may be something to check.

I'll give it some more checking tomorrow and maybe get a set of points from NAPA while I'm out today. Using the old points may be another option. We'll see but right now, I've got to get these points to close.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll report back but it will be a day or so.

Tractor Gal

I should have also added to my previous reply: If you do get the new points to close and work, new points these days come with a pretty tough anti-oxide coating that has to be scrubbed off before they'll conduct. Back in the day, you could just use a dollar bill or brown paper bag rubbed between them when closed to get rid of this coating. These days it seems like it's a lot tougher - often requiring a light file stroke or brush with some emery to get it off so they'll conduct.

And make sure your cap is on correctly and that you drop the coil on perfectly square so the spring makes contact with the brass screw (and only the brass screw) and doesn't ground out on the dizzy housing. It often takes a couple of attempts to get it to drop on correctly. And if the cap gasket isn't installed properly, it will hold the cap off the body just a smidge too far and your rotor will make erratic contact inside the cap.

 

[Tall T]

The problems with points/distributor on the Ford N series seem to be endless, so bear with me if this issue has been addressed. I could not find anything.

My 2N is used for bush hogging. It was time for that job. However, the little sweetie wouldn't start...no spark. It has been idle since June this year. I was surprised with the no spark because it has run without problems for a while now...at least 1 1/2 years. My first thought was the distributor and coil. I purchase the whole shebangy and installed the points today. The old points didn't look bad but bad enough, I guess. ( The distributor is off the tractor...it is a 6V front mount distributor, by the way.) After installing the new points, I was having trouble getting the 0.015 gap set. It just wasn't cooperating. I finally got them set but in turning the tang, it just didn't seem right and worse still, the points were not fully closing! They would not touch regardless of what I tried with the adjustment screw.

When putting those points on, I noticed that it was really hard to get the half of the point set closest to the cam fully seated. I had to use quite a bit of pressure to get them down far enough so that both sides of the points would mate. I'm wondering if that post fit is so tight that those points won't easily move? I think I read somewhere that the distributor itself could be worn out although as I look at it, I'm not sure what I should notice. There is no wobble and the cams are easily visible. For a 1944 tractor, it's remarkable that it will run...once I get this issue fixed.

I have used the multimeter to verify all the continuity, etc., it's just that the points will not fully close. Any help or suggestion would be greatly appreciated. I do not know how to continue.

Tractor Gal

Here's how I've always restored old points.
Take them out and take them apart. (don't necessarily have to take them apart - just swing them wide open))
Lay a piece of 400 emery (if pitted) on a truly flat surface and rub the face of the point squarely, back and forth on that.
Finish up the same way with 600 emery. Gets them looking like new.

If the points are installed and I want to brighten them up a little, I fold a narrow 2" strip of 600 emery in half.
Turn the engine until the points are closed.
Draw the folded strip of 600 between the points applying a little extra pressure with a screw driver bearing on the movable point arm.
Without any extra squeeze with the screw driver, you can go back and forth between the two points with the folded emery.

T

 

[Non-farmer]

There is not an ignition switch, per se, but just a flip up to turn on, but that may be something to check.

You definitely need to sort the points out, but also bear in mind that any switch can go bad. It's easy to bypass the switch. Run a jumper wire with alligator clips on both ends from the upper right of the three screw terminals on the OEM ballast resistor on the front side of the dash (assuming the wound resistor is at the top as it is mounted) to the stud on the top of the coil that the wire from the switch attaches to. Bear in mind that once the tractor starts with this jumper wire in place, you will need to disconnect one end of it to stop the tractor.

 

[used red MN]

I purchased all the parts through Yesterday's Tractors...new coil, new distributor cap and gasket, new rotor, new point kit. These were all installed. I also purchased a new resistor but didn't install that yet. You'd think that would do it! The battery is new and tests at 6.35 so I know that is not the problem. There is not an ignition switch, per se, but just a flip up to turn on, but that may be something to check.

I'll give it some more checking tomorrow and maybe get a set of points from NAPA while I'm out today. Using the old points may be another option. We'll see but right now, I've got to get these points to close.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll report back but it will be a day or so.

Tractor Gal

If you get back to this show us a photo of what is happening as to why the points won’t close.

 

[Jim.ME]

Are the screws hitting the ends of the adjustment slot before the points can be closed?

I seem to remember this happening and was posted about here, maybe a couple years ago. If I am remembering correctly a couple members said they had filed, the slots longer to get more adjustment travel. Anyone else remember that, or am I imagining this?

 

[DanielW]

Are the screws hitting the ends of the adjustment slot before the points can be closed?

I seem to remember this happening and was posted about here, maybe a couple years ago. If I am remembering correctly a couple members said they had filed, the slots longer to get more adjustment travel. Anyone else remember that, or am I imagining this?

You're correct - there have been a few of those same discussions on here regarding slot length. In my experience, the slot length seeming to be too short is more of a symptom rather than the cause, with the main cause being the arm bent up at the wrong spot. n the bad sets I've seen, you can see where the tab was supposed to be bent up, with the actual bend being slightly out of place. Either they're not setting it right in their bending die at the factory, or they're just mass-producing them with someone and a set of pliers quickly grabbing and bending them up, and not always being too accurate about it (probably because they're trying to produce them so fast).

 

[tractor gal]

Update on points and no spark. There is definitely a poor manufacture in these parts. It was quite a task to remove them even though I suspected that would happen since it was hard to get them seated. I contacted the Ag Parts that sold them and they suggested a return request which I have done.

Meanwhile, I re-installed the old points after giving them a little "touch up"...everything else was new...coil, distributor cap and gasket, rotor, condenser. Still no spark. I was almost ready to give up...almost...you can't get a good woman down! So, I looked at the wiring diagram in the repair book and was reminded about the starter switch interlock to prevent starting while in gear. In attempts to start all this time, I had depressed the clutch and wiggled the gear shift. It reacted as though it was in neutral. But, after seeing the interlock, I moved the gear shift to 2nd gear and then 3rd gear...click,,,I heard it. Even though it seemed the tractor was in neutral, apparently, it was not. The moment I hit the starter button, my little sweetie fired right up!

So, that's the story. Yes, the new points were awful but beyond that, it was the switch interlock. I never would've guessed it. Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I'm still surprised at the "hidden" problem. Never again; I'll always put it into and out of gear prior to hitting that button.

Tractor Gal

 

[Non-farmer]

If I am remembering correctly a couple members said they had filed, the slots longer to get more adjustment travel. Anyone else remember that, or am I imagining this?

I remember reading that too.

So, that's the story. Yes, the new points were awful but beyond that, it was the switch interlock. I never would've guessed it. Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I'm still surprised at the "hidden" problem. Never again; I'll always put it into and out of gear prior to hitting that button.

Well done, Gal! Take a bow. I don't know if I would ever have thought of that.

 

[used red MN]

Update on points and no spark. There is definitely a poor manufacture in these parts. It was quite a task to remove them even though I suspected that would happen since it was hard to get them seated. I contacted the Ag Parts that sold them and they suggested a return request which I have done.

Meanwhile, I re-installed the old points after giving them a little "touch up"...everything else was new...coil, distributor cap and gasket, rotor, condenser. Still no spark. I was almost ready to give up...almost...you can't get a good woman down! So, I looked at the wiring diagram in the repair book and was reminded about the starter switch interlock to prevent starting while in gear. In attempts to start all this time, I had depressed the clutch and wiggled the gear shift. It reacted as though it was in neutral. But, after seeing the interlock, I moved the gear shift to 2nd gear and then 3rd gear...click,,,I heard it. Even though it seemed the tractor was in neutral, apparently, it was not. The moment I hit the starter button, my little sweetie fired right up!

So, that's the story. Yes, the new points were awful but beyond that, it was the switch interlock. I never would've guessed it. Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I'm still surprised at the "hidden" problem. Never again; I'll always put it into and out of gear prior to hitting that button.

Tractor Gal

I am glad to hear it started and ran to your satisfaction. I do have several questions towards your terminology and explanation.
1) In your description is “spark” the jumping of highly charged electrons across a gap?
2) In terms of an engine, spark would be checked at the spark plug wire where it connects to the spark plug?
3) Hopefully we are on the same page that says an engine has to crank or be turned to produce a spark?
Most neutral start circuits on 8Ns only control the operation of the starter, as to whether the transmission shifter is in a proper position to allow safe starting. Especially if you are referring to a repair manual for this tractor which are generally only written to support operation in stock configuration. To me it seems like you are indicating that the function of the ignition may have been dependent on the position or proper operation of the neutral start switch. I would hope you know it is not. The only electrical commonality between them is they both rely on the battery for the proper voltage and power reserve to operate.
To be clear this is all about being able to help you more efficiently in your next quest. If all this time you have been directing us towards no spark when in fact your engine wasn’t being turned by the starter the diagnostic steps should have taken a far different path.
Onward to the slaying of greenery and other infestations at hand.

 

[tractor gal]

I am glad to hear it started and ran to your satisfaction. I do have several questions towards your terminology and explanation.
1) In your description is “spark” the jumping of highly charged electrons across a gap?
2) In terms of an engine, spark would be checked at the spark plug wire where it connects to the spark plug?
3) Hopefully we are on the same page that says an engine has to crank or be turned to produce a spark?
Most neutral start circuits on 8Ns only control the operation of the starter, as to whether the transmission shifter is in a proper position to allow safe starting. Especially if you are referring to a repair manual for this tractor which are generally only written to support operation in stock configuration. To me it seems like you are indicating that the function of the ignition may have been dependent on the position or proper operation of the neutral start switch. I would hope you know it is not. The only electrical commonality between them is they both rely on the battery for the proper voltage and power reserve to operate.
To be clear this is all about being able to help you more efficiently in your next quest. If all this time you have been directing us towards no spark when in fact your engine wasn’t being turned by the starter the diagnostic steps should have taken a far different path.
Onward to the slaying of greenery and other infestations at hand.

Here are answers:

#2 When I said "no spark," that is what I meant. With a spark tester between the spark plug and the spark plug wire, there was no spark.

#3 This is a 2N, not a 8N. The gear shift must be in the neutral position to start. Even though the gear shift "stick" was moving freely, the tractor was not in neutral.

According to you, "the diagnostic steps should have taken a far different path." It would be interesting to know what you would have done.

Tractor Gal

As an edit to this post, here is the description from the Ford shop manual:

From pages 18-19: Figure F042 on page 18. Quote from page 19 on starter motor and switch:

"Starter switch on 2N, 8N and 9N is provided with an interlock shown in Fig F042 which prevents starting the engine when the tractor is in gear."

This is what prompted me to check the neutral position of the tractor. The interlock is not electrical, only positional.

 

[olddavid]

Here are answers:

#2 When I said "no spark," that is what I meant. With a spark tester between the spark plug and the spark plug wire, there was no spark.

#3 This is a 2N, not a 8N. The gear shift must be in the neutral position to start. Even though the gear shift "stick" was moving freely, the tractor was not in neutral.

According to you, "the diagnostic steps should have taken a far different path." It would be interesting to know what you would have done. I doubt you would have resolved the issue. But, thanks for the query...as wrong as I think is is.

Tractor Gal

I think his point was (if not in the kindest of tones) that if the engine was rolling over when the start button was pushed the neutral safety switch was ok and that it doesn't affect the spark. I don't know about the 2N but most neutral safety switches just prevent the starter from turning and do not affect the ignition. When you tested the spark did you have the engine turning over or did you just make and break the points? I think his point was if the engine wouldn't turn over the problem was in the starter circuit not the ignition system. Glad you got it going.

 

[Eman85]

The neutral safety should have nothing to do with the ignition, 2 different systems. Ignition is controlled by the ignition switch only, nothing else.