no spark at plugs,

Anonymous-0

Well-known Member
My 8N is front mounted dist. 6 volt, positive ground,,,, have spark at coil wire with key off,, when key is on no spark, and no spark at plugs, switch is wired right, the whole tractor is hot, electrical, because it is + ground, but why do I loose ground, when key is turned on,,tractor will not start,because of this,
 
" the whole tractor is hot, electrical, because it is + ground, "

Well..........kinda hard to give you a course in basic automotive electronics so lets just jump right into solving the problem and leave the theory alone. Other than to ask what would you expect if it was negative ground?

Before you check anything else, make sure you have the correct voltage at the top of the coil. It should be battery voltage w/ the points open & about half that w/ the points closed.

Next, before you go any further.......if you turn the key on & have battery voltage at the top of the coil (points open) and no voltage at the spark plug end of the spark plug wire, and the tractor is not running......that's normal. (and if that's what you are doing, then maybe it is time for an electronics 101 class)

Is that what you checked when you say " no spark at plugs?"

Or, are you turning the engine over & checking for spark w/ a plug checker?

Assuming that the bushings & advance weights are ok, & that you have correct voltage to the coil, the most common electrical failure (no spark, weak spark) points on the frontmount are:

1. The insulator under the brass concave head screw & where the copper strip attaches. (it’s fiber & will wear out; poke & prod w/ your meter leads to make sure it still works)

2. The pigtail at the bottom of the coil not making contact w/ the concave head brass screw inside the distributor. (With the coil on, the pigtail must firmly contact the brass screw. No contact = no spark.).

3. The copper strip is broken or grounded to the plate. (look very carefully for cracks & breaks)

4. The condenser wire grounding to the plate or side of the distributor.

5. The tab on the bottom of the coil not making contact w/ the brass button on the cap. (With the cap on, the tab must firmly contact the brass button. No contact = no spark.)

6. Incorrect positioning of the spring clip on the plate causing the pigtail to ground. (the open part of the clip goes between 7 & 9 o’clock on the plate. That puts the straight part of the clip opposite of the timing screw at 3 o’clock)

7. Incorrect seating of the coil on the distributor due to a loose bail or no gasket.(the coil must not move at all; if it does, replace the gasket or bail. Or stick some cardboard under the bail).

8. Water/moisture inside the cap due to gasket failure or the absence of a gasket. (the cap AND coil have gaskets)

9. Dirty/corroded/burned/incorrectly gapped or misaligned points.

10. Burned rotor, cracked/carbon tracked cap.

Unless the coil is cracked or shows a dead short, chances are it's fine; square coils rarely fail cold. Pull the distributor & do a continuity check.

First, make sure your meter/light works (don't ask....)

You can change points everyday & it will not fix bad bushings. If you are having trouble w/ points failure, check the shaft. If you detect movement, chances are it needs new bushings.

Inspect the points; if they are pitted or burned, replace them. Next, dress the points by running a piece of card stock or brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. Make sure the points align correctly. Proper alignment is also critical to longevity. Look at the points when they are closed; both sides should mate evenly. Then, check the gap at .015 on the high point of all 4 cam lobes.

Now, follow these steps:

1. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other on both sides of the open points. On the side closest to the cam, you should have continuity. Not on the other side! If you do, you will also have continuity everywhere because the points are grounded.

2. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity! Now, rotate the tang on the distributor....as the points open & close, you have continuity (closed) and lose it when they open.

3. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other on the cam side of the open points. You should have continuity!

4. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity!

At this point, I just put the distributor, coil & cap all back on the tractor as a unit. The reason I do this is because it is real easy to get the cap or coil mis-aligned trying to put it back together one piece at a time & the result is something gets broken or you get a ‘no spark’ problem.

It's possible to put it back on wrong & break it. Look at the slot on the end of the cam shaft. What ever angle it happens to be, turn the distributor tang to match it. Make sure you can tell the wide side from the narrow side on both the cam & distributor! (close counts) Then place the distributor on the front of the engine, gently push it in place & slowly turn the distributor body until you feel the tang slip into the slot. Rotate the distributor body until the bolt holes line up. Then, hand tighten the two bolts until the distributor body is flush w/ the timing gear cover.

Finally, double check your firing order & plug wires. It’s 1-2-4-3, counterclockwise. It’s very easy to cross 3 & 4.

Post back w/ results & any other questions.
50 Tips
 
Thanks Bruce, your information helped, every thing is new coil points, cap, etc. checked the condenser, not grounded on case, I know electronic, and had a model A, but this has got me stumped,, one time had spark at plugs, weak but had spark, now no spark, it is intermitence, it has got to be in the distributor, right,,? email me if you would at my email address, you sound very knowledgeable,on the 8N, that is the kind of help I need,,,thank you again,,,,
 
by sticking a nail in the spark plug boot and holding it close to the manifold, I have a spark plug spark tester, but the spark is weak and does not show to good,,,, I am going to pull the dist. and check it like you said to do, and see if I have something grounding out in it,,I have a very good spark and voltage at the coil wire with the key off, weak with the key on,,,shouldn't the spark stay the same, I will pull the unit off and check the tang allso, Bruce please hang in here with me ok,,,there is no help where I live, or mech, close by, maybe tomorrow by the time I get it checked out, the games are starting allso,,,,I want my tractor runing,,,compression is good, new rings and inserts,,, later,,,thanks,
 
Herman........uh, you write........" have spark at coil wire with key off,, when key is on no spark"........the original N-key switch is a SPST with 2-wires, it is either ON ...or... OFF And surprizingly enuff, it don't matter which wire is connected to the battery terminal 'cuz the other wire is gonna be connected to yer sparkie coil top terminal.

Now iff'n you expect the key to be VERTICAL when OFF and HORIZONTAL when ON, just stand on yer head.

And surprizing enuff, positive (+) or negative (-) ground has 'nuttin' to do with it. ........respectfully, the amazed Dell
 
First, charge the battery.

That's the most common cause of a weak spark.

" a very good spark and voltage"

What's "very good"?

You should see 6.35v or so w/ the points open.....around 4 or so closed.

If the spark will not jump 1/4" in the open air, you have a weak spark.

Put the nail back in the box. Use the spark checker.

Yes, pull the distributor & do the continuity test w/ your multi-meter.
50 Tips
 
I have a new battery in the tractor, a very good spark with the key off, touched the coil wire to ground to see if sparked, it did strong,and have 6 volts at the wire end, coil side,,,OK will try the spark plug tester, for a spark or light,,again thanks,,,,Herman
 
As I said earlier, if you have battery voltage at the top of the coil & no spark or a weak spark, and a good battery, the problem is inside the distributor.

What is the voltage at the coil w/ the points closed?
 
You should have no voltage in the coil wire with the key off. With the key on you should have 6.2 volts with the points open and about have that with the points closed.
 
H Cooke, thanks is this true with a positive to ground battery,,,system, makes you think that the ign. switch is wired backward, but it is not according to the original setup..I will double check this, Herman
 
Have not check the voltage yet, will check tomorrow when I get back from the tire store, have a nail in a tire,,,I will pull the dist. and check all the things you said to check, and then I will let you know ,,thanks again, I will keep you posted,,,
 
bottom line... if your key is off.. there should be no power to the coil. if you are getting power to the coil, you have it wired wrong.. or have defective parts.

you say you know electronics.

nothing I have seen in any of your posts proves this!
 
Bruce, ok,,,,points closed coil wire has 6 volts with key on,,,,at the points,, closed and key on , I have 6 volts,,,, and key off, at the points 0 volts, but at the coil wire on top of coil have 0 volts,,,see, if I have voltage at the points why is it not getting to the plugs, wire are in correct order, new cap and rotor,,, new pionts,,, gapped at .15 like it is suppose to be, I hope you are available to come back to me if not when you can as soon as posible,,thanks,,,herman
 
thanks, I have 0 volts now with key off, but keep in mind this is positive ground, and one lead to the coil and the other lead to - post on battery completes a circirt with the meter in line, will give you battery voltage,,, If I am right, I am in to radio control I build my own transmitter and receiver, I do all my own wiring around the house, fuse box and wired barn and sheds, oh I replaced the switch with the old one, original,,, I am still open for any other suggestions, you have read my last post to Bruce, thanks,,,,herman
 
Go back & re-read everything everyone has told you here.

Either you are not paying attention, you do not understand what we are saying, or we are not being articulate.

So, here is a summary.

Positive or negative ground does not matter & it does not have anything whatsoever to do w/ your problem.

If the ignition switch is OFF, you should have NO voltage at the top of the coil.

W/ the switch OFF, do you have voltage at the top of the coil?

W/ the switch ON, with the points OPEN, you should have battery voltage (6.35v) at the top of the coil. Do you?

Bump the starter until the points close. Check the voltage w/ the key ON. It should be 4v or so. What is it? If it is " closed and key on , I have 6 volts,,,, " then pull the distributor & find the short.

I'll be around to help some more, as will the others.

Hang in there.
 
Dell you are amazing,,,,the tractor is hot all the time with + ground, the test lead just completed the ground circuit and gave me voltage, I guess, I rewired the coil and fuse block, I have no spark now at the coil with key off, your help is needed, have a nice day,,,,
 
Bruce, I have 0 voltage at the coil wire terminal, with the key off, now,,,,I have 6 volts at the coil terminal with key on, and points open,,,,with key on and points closed, still have 6 volts, does that mean i have a short in there some where or a bad condenser I pulled the dist. and it all looks normal, condenser lead is hooked up right,, points acts normal open no voltage, closed, I have voltage, the plug wires are new and in the right order,,,there has to be a short some where but I dont see it,,,I hate to have to replaced the whole dist. 245.00 ,,,thanks and thanks for hanging in there with me maybe we will figure this out soon,,,
 
Hey guys, I have to go to work now will be back tomorrow, I am off, and will continual this forum, and look for your posts, please stay with me,,,ok,,,thanks again,,,,,
 
I'm in radio and sound and have an engineering degree.. I build communication and maintain a few buildings worth of communication equipment.

your understanding of 'ground' seems very myopic.

ground potential is defined by what pole of a battery is tied to it.

if you place your vom meter lead on the negative post of the battery, and then place your other meter lead on the coil, AND the points are closed.. you should KNOW what is happening.. but apparrently you don't.

negative is the 'hot' lead on a positive ground system.

points connect to ground.. when points are closed the entire ignition coil primary is going to be referenced to ground. since there is no current flowing and you are making an open circuit voltage measurement ( key switch is open )you will read battery volts.

Learn how to use your test equipment!
 
OK thanks, I know you know your stuff, but I belive I found my problem, the coil spring contact where it sits on the dist, was touching the breaker plate hold down clip, I moved the clip away from that opening and coil spring, ( contact spring ), so now i have to put it all back together tomorrow and check it out , hope that was my problem,,thanks for your comment, I I understand ,, I do,,,,take care,,,
 
Bruce, I did, I read every ones comment again and others, on coil, I believe I found my problem, the coil contact spring was touching the breaker plate hold down clip, so I moved the clip away, and now have to put it back to gether and check for spark at the wires, thanks, for helping me, I appreciate it from every one, let hope this was my problem,,,again thanks, Herman ,,, will let you know,,,
 
you were grounding out the primary, thus it was acting like the points were always closed, as in my above referenced example.
 
Thanks, sound guy,,,,,,really you have helped me out alot, now I have a very strong spark,,,,thanks again,,,it is kind of you to help people out like me,,on this, site,,,take care,
 
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