O/T Vent free fireplace

[DJL]

Okay guys, I know it"s not tractor related, but just wondering. Does anyone have a vent free fireplace they use in the house? I"m remodeling my basement, and bought a natural gas fireplace(of sorts) It"s designed to hang on the wall like a picture and is 20K BTU"s. I think it"d be about perfect just for some auxilery/additional heat in my family room downstairs. If I"m cautious and never run it while I"m asleep and only for fairly short periods of time, will I have any trouble? It does have an oxygen depletion sensor on it as well. Are these things safe? Do I need to worry about the moisture that will be a bi-product of burning the natural gas?
Thanks
DJL

 

[Anonymous-0]

Have used one since 2000 mellinium scam,anyway works very well absolutely no problem, have a monoxide alert also,power failures or aux.heat when needed

 

[T_Bone]

Hi DJL,

The is no such item a ventless heater of any type. Yes, there designed not to be direct vented to the outside but that means they still have to be vented with cross ventalation from open windows. Read the fine print!

All carbon based fuels have to be vented , period. If not someones going to die, it's just that simple.

ABC news last year tested new CO detectors right out of the box with a 60% failure rate. There's only one 100% safe CO operation and that's cross ventalation of outside air.

BTW, I do have a piece of paper hanging on the wall that states, I are a real HVAC&R Engineer for the past 35yrs .

T_Bone

 

[Bob]

Go to the Comsumer Products Safety Commission website, and see what their opinion is of breathing combustion byproducts from unvented heaters. Besides the "killer" carbon monoxide everyone worries about, there's a host of other combustion byproducts that no thinking person would want themselves and their family ro breath.

WHO KNOWS how much they increase the chances of getting cancer or other diseeases "down the road".

 

[Anonymous-0]

So how have we used the open flame gas stoves in our kitchens for many many yrs and it was ok now cant do this cant do that.

 

[omahagreg]

Have 1 in my garage-20,000 btu. Called my HVAC guy about venting-he did a cubic foot calculation and said it needed no fresh air-I told him I wanted some for my peace of mind. Finally decided on a dryer vent immediately below
the unit. Have had no problem with it. My Dad had 2 in his house and he was getting headaches from them. So the conventional wisdom (about needing some venting) seems to have lots of merit as well. Greg

 

[JDemaris]

Believe what you want - but use your head a little. There are indeed "ventless" heaters - that because the name implies you don't have to INSTALL a dedicated vent. Most homes have enough air-leakage that these unvented heaters work fine - unless you stick a large heater in a very small room with a closed door.

Some of this gloom and doom I hear - is just plain rediculous. How many people have died from using the kitchen stove? They don't get vents either.

We've got 30K BTU unvented heaters in three large rooms in our home and also have a small 6000 BTU unit in a tiny bathroom. We heat our home just about 100% with wood, but . . . use the unvented heaters for spot heating - or - during times when the wood fire isn't going.

We've never had any problems. Our CO detectors have gone off a few times - but that was due to coals in a wood-fire with a closed damper.

In regard to the additional gloom-and-doom about CO detectors not working? Well, true and not-true. If you want to spend some extra money, you certainly can get a reliable CO detector. The main problem is - the cheaper ones don't detect low levels of CO very well - and that is based on a trade-off. They do offer some protection - and - if the cheap ones weren't available - many people would not buy them at all. So - the mindset is - if only the high-end units were sold - MORE people would die, not less - since many would not buy them at all.

 

[JDemaris]

There certainly IS such a thing. " Vent-free" denotes a heater that does not require a dedcicated vent installed - period. They rely on natural venting that exists in most households.

Open windows are NOT required in all uses as you claim. It depends on the size of the room and how tight the house is.

 

[Anonymous-0]

In a reasonably tight house, they will give nearly anyone a headache. Basement would be especially bad. I have heard of a few working out ok in an old, drafty house. I know of two in basements, and neither family can ues them w/o headaches.

 

[Anonymous-0]

I am a retired firefighter - we had an alarm once where an entire family (5) were found dead after they had started their swiming pool heater and gone to bed - the vent was blocked off by the previous owner to keep squirrels out - be careful!!

 

[T_Bone]

Hi JD,

Since I've already battled the Olypian catalytic heater on the RV forum, I'll use my data from that:

Direct quote from page2 of the Olypian Catayltic owners manual:

******************WARNING************************
"The heater consumes air from the space in which it is used. Sufficient fresh air must be provided to assure complete combustion of the fuel gas. Improper combustion can result in the production of poisonous carbon monoxide, causing danger of asphyxiation and death. Carbon monoxide is an odorless, colorless gas.
Symptoms of carbon monoxide poisoning often cannot be recognized before losing consciousness."
************************************************

***********************************************
require a total of 24 sq. inches (i.e. a 4" X 6" total open area) to properly ventilate
***********************************************

Do I need to take a copy of the Olypian owners manual to futher prove my point or is my word good enough that this is what the owners manual states?

Most newer homes are built today are so tight that dangerous levels of all off gas from the building products is a large concern. I can copy some info from my Indoor Air Quality Engineers handbook if you would like.

Please just show me one direct quote from ANY vent free fuel burning appliance owners manual that states the appliance does NOT need ventilation.

If you DL the owners manual, please give me a link to it so I can read the manual so we discuss and compare apples with apples.

T_Bone

 

[T_Bone]

Hi Gene,

Any building code requires a direct vent on any "open" fuel burning appliance and that would be the draft hood above the range top that takes care of that.

Why do you think that you here in the news about people dieing from using a oven or range top to heat there tight built homes? That deadly CO doesn't care who you are but if you get enough of it, you will die, a known fact!

Remember, CO, is both colorless and odorless and is why it is of such great importance!

T_Bone

 

[JDemaris]

RV heaters are an entirely different issue. I don't sleep with any heat in my RV unless the window is open. It's just too small and confined to trust anything burning fuel. When overnighting, we heat the place up when awake - and shut the heat down before we go to sleep.

I don't particularly care what one specific brand of heater states in it's own literature. I could cite many more that will back up exactly what I have said - and allow the use in New York according to code. Other states can be different.

I've never lived, nor have I slept in a house that so tight it can't vent itself - although I realize they exist.

My wife's parents have a very tight super-insulated house - and I can't stand being in it without some windows open - heater or no heater.

I am going to assume that most houses are not that tight, nor are most houses new. Our home has one half built in 1820, and the other half I built a few years ago. Our upstairs bedroom windows are open a bit all winter - even when it's 20F below outside - that mainly because the wood furnace keeps the house so warm - especially upstairs.

I will also mention - I don't own any kind of unvented gas fireplace - I don't understand the utility of them. What we have are unvented propane infrared heaters and they work great. No headaches either. We do have on open-flame "Blue Flame" model which I suspect does not burn as clean as the radiant infrared models - but it's still never been an issue and does not require any kind of extra exhaust venting - nor does it need any kind of extra fresh air source in most homes. If a home is loose enough to use a woodstove with no outside air piped in, it will work fine with an unvented propane or gas heater.

 

[T_Bone]

Hi JD,

Your Blue Flame doesn't have online owners manuals available and for a good reason, they don't want you discover that a ventilation is required for installation!!!

It does not matter if you open windows to vent an appliance or direct vent the appliance as there truley one in the same thing.

One advantage a direct vent appliance has is that it controls the correct amount of required ventilation while in operation.

A non-vent appliance requires the operator to open widows that may or may not add the correct amount of ventilation. Most likely they will be under vented.

A direct Blue Flame website quote:

**********************************************
Use with adequate air (ventilation) only. Humidifies while it heats.
***********************************************

Naturally they alude to the specifications of what the heater demands of adequate ventilation.

You know JD, I use to have repect for your posts but I no longer do.

You don't have the balls to make a statement of calling a man a liar to there face but you didn't have a problem one in the other post on this topic that you made, then when your asked to back it up, then you can't back it up.

You've posted nothing that backs up what you've stated, just all hot air. Geez it must be that true Blue Flame direct vent free heater combustion-by products talking. LMAO.

T_Bone

 

[JDemaris]

Odd commments. You having a bad day? I didn't call anyone a liar - and that includes you. Lying is an overt act and to do so, a person knows they are telling mistruths. Sitting here - I have no way of knowing that, and subsequently I don't go off the handle and accuse people of lying. Seems at the moment - you're one with control issues.

I didn't see anything that you posted that fell into that category of telling lies. A few questions in regard to semantics - yes. As to that, I think I already made my opinion clear with my comments - if you are referring to the "vent free" issue.

In regard to ProCom - the company that sells Blue Flame and infrared heaters - I don't need their website - I've got the hard-copy of their manuals sitting on my shelf -and three of their heaters that were inspected and passed after they were installed. ProCom gives a check-list to determine natural drafting abilities of a household - on a scale of 1 to 3. From that the installation requirements change depending on that number, and also the locale where the heater is being used.

I say this T-bone. It doesn't take any "balls" at all to call someone a liar - in fact, it's pretty easy - especially when someone is sitting behind a keyboard. In fact, it's too easy and makes a mess of many forums. I simply didn't call you a liar because #1 - it wasn't on my mind, and #2 it's kind of tactless to do so on a forum like this.

Also - in regard to backing up my statements? For what? I posted and anybody can believe whatever they want. This isn't a contest - at least not from where I sit. I posted a few things based on my personal experience - and I don't feel a need to mention any degrees or licenses that might be hanging on my wall (as you already did).

 

[GRJ]

Enjoy the stink they leave in the air.Threw our away because of that!!!

 

[T_Bone]

Hi JD,

We'll take them one at a time.

Your comments:

"Believe what you want..."
"Some of this gloom and doom I hear - is just plain rediculous..."
"In regard to the additional gloom-and-doom about CO detectors not working?"

Now, tell me just how you were not directing those comments to my original post since I was the only one that mentioned the above. That is calling me a lair and I don't care what you say. Your intent was to discredit what I stated but not doing so directly at me. Had you been a man about it, we could have discussed it but no you chose to try too sneak that in there hoping I wouldn't make a comment. Well that back fired on you.


Your comment:
"There are indeed "ventless" heaters - that because the name implies you don't have to INSTALL a dedicated vent."


This just is a wrong statement. As I stated before, it doesn't matter if you use the room as a vent or you run a direct vent. The unit is ventilated by some means with the room acting as a vent in this case, so it can not be a ventless heater under any event of any wording you choose. The unit is ventilated, PERIOD!

What futher complicates this issue is, that you now have to explain to a child, mother, wife, grandkids or a stranger that in order to use this "ventless" heater you need to make sure there's "fresh" air moving in the room when the unit is turned on. Can you see the drawback to this game plan? A dead child sure would help them to remember the "next" time!


Your comments:
"Also - in regard to backing up my statements? For what?"

Because I've down this road before. You only read what you want to read in the installation instructions, as most poeple do, but forget to read the part where they talk about venting the room.

Now once you see that this unit heater needs to be ventilated, then it should tell a person that this unit is going to cost them alot of money to operate vs a using direct vent unit.

From my 38yrs of experience in the HVAC&R industry, I can tell you that a ventless design unit is used with either too much ventilation or not enough ventilation and very very seldom with the correct amount of ventilation. 99% of the time they will be used while being in a under-ventilated state.


Your Comment:
"and I don't feel a need to mention any degrees or licenses that might be hanging on my wall (as you already did)"

I'm very proud of those degrees that I have as they took alot of hard work to get them. You bet I took the chance at tooting my own horn as this type of thread always leads to someone who try's to discredit someone else to try and prove a point they can't back up.

I tried to get you to find just one ventless heater to defend your comments but you could not find one as they don't exist!!!

In fact now is a good time to futhure toot some more:
A member of following:
American Society of Heating Refrigeration and Airconditioning Engineers
InDoor Air Quality Engineers
Energy Management Engineers
AWS CWI (Certified Weld Inspector)

I was ranked in the top 60 of 120,000 of my peers when I quit working.

T_Bone

 

[dave guest]

Used on in basement for 20 years. Only operate on 5000 btu setting. Infrared with oxy sensor which amounts to pilot flame changing from horizontal to vertical when oxy is depleted. Then pilot flame missed sensor and shuts off. Check it sometimes. Know its not the safest thing in the world, but is anything? Remember lots of these in barbershops when I was kid. Old barbers cut hair till they were 80. Older house with some air leaks for sure.

 

[buickanddeere]

I can't get comfortable either with the idea of being inside a sealed vessel with something burning fuel.
One year ago last weekend at Carson's Camp just 20 miles up the road from here in Bruce County.
A family of five were spending the 1st night of the camp season in their trailer. 911 dispatch received a muffled, mumbled call about somebody at the camp in a trailer not feeling well.
A search found the entire family deeply unconscious from Carbon Monoxide poisoning inside their trailer. The wife/Mother was found in bed, cell phone still in hand. She had managed to dial 911 , a few words then was completely overcome.
The entire family was rushed to the Tobermory Hyperbaric chamber to be pressurized under several atmospheres of pressure while breathing oxygen.
They all survived thanks to a Mother's love for here family that kept her going when everybody else had dropped. Along with a cell phone,a keen volunteer fire department plus ambulance & police.