Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Has anyone ever used an Optima battery in a tractor? I am thinking about it and was looking for the best place to purchase. I know they are expensive. It would be a 6 volt application.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Sorry about spelling
Around here Advanced Auto handles them. The 6 volt AGM has about twice the CCA of many other conventional lead acid batteries (Good if you need to start at extreme cold temps),,,can be used in any orientation,,,,,,no acid spill to worry about,,,,,,,,,BUT they are of course more expensive so its YOUR TRACTOR YOUR CHOICE if they are worth the extra expense to gain a lot more (if needed??) CCA. The Frankster uses them, hopefully he will comment regarding his experience
John T
John T
Best battery I have ever owned. I have a six volt model in my 51 Chevy truck. I don't drive it that much, but I have never had it go flat. They are known for keeping a charge and lasting a long time. Put a smart trickle charger on it if you are worried about it keeping the charge up.
I also have a 12 volt model in my Jetta diesel. Very Strong battery even when it is cold.
I plan to buy one for my '51 B when its battery quits.
Kurt
I also have a 12 volt model in my Jetta diesel. Very Strong battery even when it is cold.
I plan to buy one for my '51 B when its battery quits.
Kurt
I have noted just the opposite. We use an optima on a piece of equipment that only sees use for about 3 weeks out of the year. We had been buying a new battery every year prior to the optima. The Optima did not even have to be charged. It was ready to go after 11 months of doing nothing.
Aaron from Iowa
Member
I had an Optima Red Top in my 2000 GMC Jimmy until I sold it. Never had a single problem with it, and it had quite a current draw from my stereo. The only down side I have heard about them is that their spiral cells supposedly don't hold up well to low temperatures and break down faster than normal batteries. I had mine for 4 years and never experienced this. When the battery goes in my new vehicle, I plan to get an Optima for it, too.
Hotflashjr
Well-known Member
- Location
- Western MA
The Optima in my truck came from my previous vehicle. This thing has now 6 years of use on it and I am still not worried about it. Never had it go dead and the last vehicle it was in also had a large stereo system. The Wal Mart batteries last about year and still aren't that cheap compared to what they are. I will be putting a 6 volt Optima in my JD once it is done.
Mike Aylward
Well-known Member
Gary, I'll add to the good information from the others. I have had a couple of these batteries in my pulling tractor due to their high output for their weight. However, be aware that they do not like any kind of boost. I keep a trickle charger on mine all the time and it works fine that way. I had the first battery go bad and they told me where I got it that if it had ever been boosted it would have ruined it (and it had). I am on the fence about them. Mike
I'm curious as to what your reason is for wanting one?
The way I see it, the true cost of a battery is what it costs you over time. AGMs are rarely cost effective when judged that way. I've had to removed many failed AGMs from battery banks and replace with good old-fashioned flooded lead acid batteries. One big down-side to AGMs is they do not handle less-then-perfect charge current very well. Especially chargers with an "equalizing" molde.
The AGMs have the advantage of being spill proof and shippable by air. Other than that? Many conventional flooded lead acid batteries cost half the price and last just as long.
I've had many cheap 6 volt lead-acid batteries last 8-10 years. The Optimas will not do better, and in some cases, do much worse.
Optima uses a bit of deceptive advertising, bragging about their great cold cranking capacity. In reality, it means nothing. All they've done is "rob Peter to pay Paul." They sacrifice reserve capacity to give more cranking amps for a short time.
Now . . . if you need high cranking amps in a very small battery - then it makes sense. But in a tractor? Any I've worked on has all the room it needs to hold a conventional battery that is adequate.
I could buy an Optima Red Top 6 volt battery for around $125 to $150. It has a reserve capacity of only 100 minutes at a 25 amp draw.
For the same price, I can buy a flooded lead acid battery that has a reserve capacity of 450 minutes at 25 amps. That means it can provide power more then four times longer.
The way I see it, the true cost of a battery is what it costs you over time. AGMs are rarely cost effective when judged that way. I've had to removed many failed AGMs from battery banks and replace with good old-fashioned flooded lead acid batteries. One big down-side to AGMs is they do not handle less-then-perfect charge current very well. Especially chargers with an "equalizing" molde.
The AGMs have the advantage of being spill proof and shippable by air. Other than that? Many conventional flooded lead acid batteries cost half the price and last just as long.
I've had many cheap 6 volt lead-acid batteries last 8-10 years. The Optimas will not do better, and in some cases, do much worse.
Optima uses a bit of deceptive advertising, bragging about their great cold cranking capacity. In reality, it means nothing. All they've done is "rob Peter to pay Paul." They sacrifice reserve capacity to give more cranking amps for a short time.
Now . . . if you need high cranking amps in a very small battery - then it makes sense. But in a tractor? Any I've worked on has all the room it needs to hold a conventional battery that is adequate.
I could buy an Optima Red Top 6 volt battery for around $125 to $150. It has a reserve capacity of only 100 minutes at a 25 amp draw.
For the same price, I can buy a flooded lead acid battery that has a reserve capacity of 450 minutes at 25 amps. That means it can provide power more then four times longer.
I researched and bought my first Optima Redtop 6 volt unit in 2002. It is still in service. My hunch has been that most of the discount store 6 volt batteries were made in one 5,000 unit run, and then left to sit in a warehouse while Tractor Supply sells 30 or 40 of them a week. I only went to the Optima package because I could not find a "conventional" 6 volt battery that did not ooze and drip and weep in a short period of time. Optima has that figured out.
As to not liking a boost charge? What battery manufacturer recommends that you hit their cells with 100 amps all at once? Don't try it with a Ni-Cad either. Lead-acid cells might appear to be more tolerant of rapid charge rates, but that does not mean that you are not harming them in doing so.
On the reserve power issue, I agree absolutely that Optima's design allows it to put more power out in a short burst than a simlar sized conventional unit. That's a selling point in my opinion. If you like to leave the lights on at the stadium parking lot, and still want to start your car, you might need a large reserve rating. But my experience is that if I can spin the starter faster at the initial crank, the engine is more likely to start, and then I can let the charging system take care of my reserve requirements. I think of reserve rating being the power you need after you spent most of the battery cranking the engine just a tad too slow for the first minute and a half, followed by thirty seconds of muttering "C'mon Baby, C'mon Baby!. Then you need the reserve.
I like 'em, I buy 'em, and I use 'em.
As to not liking a boost charge? What battery manufacturer recommends that you hit their cells with 100 amps all at once? Don't try it with a Ni-Cad either. Lead-acid cells might appear to be more tolerant of rapid charge rates, but that does not mean that you are not harming them in doing so.
On the reserve power issue, I agree absolutely that Optima's design allows it to put more power out in a short burst than a simlar sized conventional unit. That's a selling point in my opinion. If you like to leave the lights on at the stadium parking lot, and still want to start your car, you might need a large reserve rating. But my experience is that if I can spin the starter faster at the initial crank, the engine is more likely to start, and then I can let the charging system take care of my reserve requirements. I think of reserve rating being the power you need after you spent most of the battery cranking the engine just a tad too slow for the first minute and a half, followed by thirty seconds of muttering "C'mon Baby, C'mon Baby!. Then you need the reserve.
I like 'em, I buy 'em, and I use 'em.
Mike Aylward
Well-known Member
I don't disagree with anything you said, Frank. I bought the batteries I have had from Auto Zone. They told me there that the red top batteries were less tolerant of any additional charging than the yellow ones. I now have a yellow in my pulling tractor and have gotten along better. I no longer try my regular charger on it and use the trickle charger all the time. My trouble is that I am using it on a pulling tractor. Big cubes, high compression, and almost not enough battery to wheel it over. I am trying to save weight. The battery I have will just barely turn my tractor over. I have a direct ground to frame and 3/0 cables. The tractor gets started more than it runs so it never gets a "running charge". I probably need a second one to make the tractor start better. I do like the fact that they never leak.
The driver will probably have to stop eating potatoes and gravy so much so I can add the additional battery (and it's weight) to the tractor..
Mike
The driver will probably have to stop eating potatoes and gravy so much so I can add the additional battery (and it's weight) to the tractor..
MikeI'll take reserve capacity over cranking amps any time in a gas engine. I'd rather have one that can crank steadily for awhile, instead of real fast and then peter out.
An AGM battery is still just a lead-acid battery. Just keeps the acid in a matrix instead of in liquid form. There is no magic involved.
Diesels need more cranking amps and rely on good cranking speed to start. But, that's why most use dual batteries.
If your tractor won't crank for you with a conventional flooded lead acid battery, then you're using the wrong battery and Optima has nothing to do with the issue.
When you come right down to it, most batteries can be judged by their weight. I'll take a 60 lb battery over a 18 lb. battery anytime, especially when the heavier battery is cheaper.
On the subject of AGMs not being tolerant to certain types of charging. I'm not sure what or who your "boost" reference it to. I made a comment about "equalizing" which is not "boost." Large battery banks that are expected to last a long time need to have the chargers put into "equalize mode every few months. In fact, some battery companies void the warranties if you don't do it. It's not the same as a high boost charge.
I don't care who uses what for batteries. It's no skin off my nose. I'm just trying to separate facts from fiction and marketing hype. AGMs were first developed for air and space travel where the chance of spilling acid could not be taken. From there, they began to get used in race cars - for the same reason. But otherwise? Very little advantage and they cost more. Go price one by the pound, when compared to a conventional battery and they're often 3-4 times more.
I also understand there are many who are happy because their Optimas lasted a long time. I can say the same with many conventional battery owners. My father-in-law just replaced his battery in his Japanese Ford tractor for the first time. 11 years old. That is pretty impressive for an old-fashioned lead-acid battery.
I'll furher note that I'm using a Rolls-Surette battery bank here at home. All flooded lead acid batteries and on their 9th year now, with no failures.
An AGM battery is still just a lead-acid battery. Just keeps the acid in a matrix instead of in liquid form. There is no magic involved.
Diesels need more cranking amps and rely on good cranking speed to start. But, that's why most use dual batteries.
If your tractor won't crank for you with a conventional flooded lead acid battery, then you're using the wrong battery and Optima has nothing to do with the issue.
When you come right down to it, most batteries can be judged by their weight. I'll take a 60 lb battery over a 18 lb. battery anytime, especially when the heavier battery is cheaper.
On the subject of AGMs not being tolerant to certain types of charging. I'm not sure what or who your "boost" reference it to. I made a comment about "equalizing" which is not "boost." Large battery banks that are expected to last a long time need to have the chargers put into "equalize mode every few months. In fact, some battery companies void the warranties if you don't do it. It's not the same as a high boost charge.
I don't care who uses what for batteries. It's no skin off my nose. I'm just trying to separate facts from fiction and marketing hype. AGMs were first developed for air and space travel where the chance of spilling acid could not be taken. From there, they began to get used in race cars - for the same reason. But otherwise? Very little advantage and they cost more. Go price one by the pound, when compared to a conventional battery and they're often 3-4 times more.
I also understand there are many who are happy because their Optimas lasted a long time. I can say the same with many conventional battery owners. My father-in-law just replaced his battery in his Japanese Ford tractor for the first time. 11 years old. That is pretty impressive for an old-fashioned lead-acid battery.
I'll furher note that I'm using a Rolls-Surette battery bank here at home. All flooded lead acid batteries and on their 9th year now, with no failures.
Glad to hear your inputs on this one Frank, heres a copy of my response over on the Farmall Board as its most appropriate here also..
FUN DISCUSSION
As an engineer Im always aware of and looking for engineering "trade offs" and energy principles show us theres no free lunch i.e. if you gain something in one place it may result in losses elsewhere.
Remember when they used Amp Hrs as a comparative battery rating??? then now they talk more about CCA and reserve capacity etc etc. The bottom line is a battery is an electrochemical energy STORAGE device and some store more energy then others. In lead acid batteries thats more often more weight as that means more lead and more acid i.e. more weight
AS far as CCA versus reserve capacity seems to me if you need to start a diesel you need highhhhhhhh CCA so she cranks fast enough to raise the temperature of the compressed air sufficient for combustion when the injectors fire and you would be more interested in CCA then reserve to get that fast initial spin. TO THE CONTRARY if you have a gas engine or a worn out engine that takes a while to start and its not so necessary that she cranks really really fastttttt then reserve capacity means more..
To avoid comparing apples to oranges one would need perhaps the Amp Hrs and CCA and Reserve Capacity in order to arrive at the decision as to which battery is best for a particular application. To me that may be high CCA ORRRRR high reserve, depends on the engine. Noooowwwwwwww if one technology (lead acid, Gel cell, AGM, etc) is more efficient and stores more energy due to technology improvements, that may be the best provided theres sufficient real data to make the call???????
Love this electrical chat, thanks yall
John T
FUN DISCUSSION
As an engineer Im always aware of and looking for engineering "trade offs" and energy principles show us theres no free lunch i.e. if you gain something in one place it may result in losses elsewhere.
Remember when they used Amp Hrs as a comparative battery rating??? then now they talk more about CCA and reserve capacity etc etc. The bottom line is a battery is an electrochemical energy STORAGE device and some store more energy then others. In lead acid batteries thats more often more weight as that means more lead and more acid i.e. more weight
AS far as CCA versus reserve capacity seems to me if you need to start a diesel you need highhhhhhhh CCA so she cranks fast enough to raise the temperature of the compressed air sufficient for combustion when the injectors fire and you would be more interested in CCA then reserve to get that fast initial spin. TO THE CONTRARY if you have a gas engine or a worn out engine that takes a while to start and its not so necessary that she cranks really really fastttttt then reserve capacity means more..
To avoid comparing apples to oranges one would need perhaps the Amp Hrs and CCA and Reserve Capacity in order to arrive at the decision as to which battery is best for a particular application. To me that may be high CCA ORRRRR high reserve, depends on the engine. Noooowwwwwwww if one technology (lead acid, Gel cell, AGM, etc) is more efficient and stores more energy due to technology improvements, that may be the best provided theres sufficient real data to make the call???????
Love this electrical chat, thanks yall
John T
I was referring the boost comments made by Mike. Tried to organize my comments to multiple posters in one response. I only call them lead-acid batteries out of habit. I understand most of that whole H2SO4 thing.
I buy 'em, I use 'em. Hope they continue to build them for one customer.
I buy 'em, I use 'em. Hope they continue to build them for one customer.
Frank, Like you I bought my first Optima 6 V. after having tried three different "conventional" batteries from NAPA over two days. One DOA, one weak, and one failed shortly after install. For years before then I ran 6 volt CAT batteries until they stopped making them in the group size I needed.
I haven't had the first problem with any of the Optimas. I noticed the the guys who are reporting problems, are maybe using/charging the batteries in ways that are not recommended (guys, please don't take offence)
The take away I get from this is that if you need to rapidly charge your battery, don't get an Optima, and if you are using a battery bank, all your batteries should be the same kind, with the appropriate charging system.
Optima makes a deep discharge (yellow top) which I would think would be fine for a battery bank, but the key is that you need to charge them at the rate and voltage recommended by the manufacturer.
Kurt
I haven't had the first problem with any of the Optimas. I noticed the the guys who are reporting problems, are maybe using/charging the batteries in ways that are not recommended (guys, please don't take offence)
The take away I get from this is that if you need to rapidly charge your battery, don't get an Optima, and if you are using a battery bank, all your batteries should be the same kind, with the appropriate charging system.
Optima makes a deep discharge (yellow top) which I would think would be fine for a battery bank, but the key is that you need to charge them at the rate and voltage recommended by the manufacturer.
Kurt
alabamafrog
Well-known Member
Wow, I could buy 3 regular wet 6v batteries for my MT for $150. If they last an average of 6 years each then that’s 18 years of battery for the price of the one optima, how long is the optima free replacement warranty?
All the battery companies still provide specs for reserve capacity/amp hours. It just isn't something they put in their two-line big ads. That I suppose due to the fact that many consumers today have no idea what an amp hour is.
Reserve capacity (or amp hours) is/are critical for diesels also. Especially in cold regions. Even more especially an indirect-injected diesel with 80 amps worth of glow plugs that get cycled for 10-20 seconds before every crank cycle. Add to that the extra load of also spinning a hydraulic pump making 2200 PSI in some tractors. You draw 80 amps for 20 seconds, and then draw 500 amps cranking a cold diesel - sometimes for 30 seconds a try - you'd better have high reserve. A diesel in cold weather needs both cranking speed to make ignition, and the ability to do it for X amount of time. It's the reason why many tractor makers used dual 6 volt batteries in series instead of dual 12 volt batteries in parallel. Year's back, the 6 volt batteries had a bit of advantage with better reserve capacity.
When I worked for a Deere dealer with many forestry and industrial contracts - reserve capacity was a major issue. That because we had so many diesel machines siting out in the woods somewhere, with no electricity for block heaters.
Reserve capacity (or amp hours) is/are critical for diesels also. Especially in cold regions. Even more especially an indirect-injected diesel with 80 amps worth of glow plugs that get cycled for 10-20 seconds before every crank cycle. Add to that the extra load of also spinning a hydraulic pump making 2200 PSI in some tractors. You draw 80 amps for 20 seconds, and then draw 500 amps cranking a cold diesel - sometimes for 30 seconds a try - you'd better have high reserve. A diesel in cold weather needs both cranking speed to make ignition, and the ability to do it for X amount of time. It's the reason why many tractor makers used dual 6 volt batteries in series instead of dual 12 volt batteries in parallel. Year's back, the 6 volt batteries had a bit of advantage with better reserve capacity.
When I worked for a Deere dealer with many forestry and industrial contracts - reserve capacity was a major issue. That because we had so many diesel machines siting out in the woods somewhere, with no electricity for block heaters.
alabamafrog
Well-known Member
For that kinda money they would have to have at least an 8 year free replacement and 15 year prorated warranty for the price to be comparable to standard wet batteries.
You've got to be kidding.
In regard to your statement:
"Optima makes a deep discharge (yellow top) which I would think would be fine for a battery bank "
I ask why?
The Optima deep-cycle batteries in battery banks have one of the worst warrranties in existence, along with the highest failure rate for that use.
The biggest Yellow Top (BCI group 31) is rated with a reserve capacity of only 155 amps and sells for $220 to $320.
Has a one year replacement warranty and two year pro-rated. Note that if used in a battery bank, warranty is cut in half, and if in a battery bank with a charging system not recognized by Optima, all warranty is void. Also, if Optima decides the battery failed due to what they regard as not-perfect charging, warranty is void.
So, a 155 AH Optima can cost $300 and may have NO warranty.
I can buy two Trojan T-105s or equiv. deep-cycle 6 volt batteries for $200. They give 220 AH of reserve and honor their warranties. Almost twice the battery for less cost and much less sensitive to the charger type or rate used.
Note that the industry standard now for battery bank warranties is a minimum of 5 years. For that reason, no installers that I know of would ever use an Optima. All the major commpanies have extended the warranties except for Optima. I wonder why?
I have one bank where I'm using the Canadian Rolls-Surette conventional lead acid batteries. They are #1 in the world for battery banks.
One 700 AH battery costs $800, but it has a 10 year warranty with an average life of 20 years.
That sounds expensive, but it only costs $40 per year for 700 AH of power. An Optima - to do the same thing would cost around $200 per month to do the same job. I'll take $40 per month over $200 per month any time.
AGMs are not cost-effective and probably never will be for tractor use or in battery banks. If you need one for a special purpose - like installing upside down - it's a different issue.
In regard to your statement:
"Optima makes a deep discharge (yellow top) which I would think would be fine for a battery bank "
I ask why?
The Optima deep-cycle batteries in battery banks have one of the worst warrranties in existence, along with the highest failure rate for that use.
The biggest Yellow Top (BCI group 31) is rated with a reserve capacity of only 155 amps and sells for $220 to $320.
Has a one year replacement warranty and two year pro-rated. Note that if used in a battery bank, warranty is cut in half, and if in a battery bank with a charging system not recognized by Optima, all warranty is void. Also, if Optima decides the battery failed due to what they regard as not-perfect charging, warranty is void.
So, a 155 AH Optima can cost $300 and may have NO warranty.
I can buy two Trojan T-105s or equiv. deep-cycle 6 volt batteries for $200. They give 220 AH of reserve and honor their warranties. Almost twice the battery for less cost and much less sensitive to the charger type or rate used.
Note that the industry standard now for battery bank warranties is a minimum of 5 years. For that reason, no installers that I know of would ever use an Optima. All the major commpanies have extended the warranties except for Optima. I wonder why?
I have one bank where I'm using the Canadian Rolls-Surette conventional lead acid batteries. They are #1 in the world for battery banks.
One 700 AH battery costs $800, but it has a 10 year warranty with an average life of 20 years.
That sounds expensive, but it only costs $40 per year for 700 AH of power. An Optima - to do the same thing would cost around $200 per month to do the same job. I'll take $40 per month over $200 per month any time.
AGMs are not cost-effective and probably never will be for tractor use or in battery banks. If you need one for a special purpose - like installing upside down - it's a different issue.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I use a 6 volt red top in the 830 pony start, and two of the largest yellow tops in series for the 730 electric start. Two of the largest yellow tops in parallel in a MM diesel. Also the large yellow top in a Ford F350 with a 460 engine. No problems with any of them. A brother has a 6 volt (red top?) in a Ford 640 for the last ten years and it still works fine.
Dave Disney
New User
I have one 6 volt red in a 1942 WW2 Jeep, and a 12 volt in a jD 2020. The main advantage, is lack of acid fumes, and acid corrosion in a restored tractor that a lot of time and money went in to.
All the eaten-away battery holders and compartment repairs done due to acid battery venting and spill damage, makes the optima worth the extra cash. The railroad where I work uses them in their electrical and control cabinets for that reason.
All the eaten-away battery holders and compartment repairs done due to acid battery venting and spill damage, makes the optima worth the extra cash. The railroad where I work uses them in their electrical and control cabinets for that reason.
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