OT/e85 and efficient engine

[n8terry]

I didn't make myself clear on this topic earlier.

I don't want to build a performance engine, I want to build an engine that will perform efficiently while running on e85. A couple days ago e85 was priced at 2.36 where I live.

What engine would be a good candidate for rebuilding and run on e85? Like I mentioned earlier, from what I read, an engine would have to have a compression ratio of around 11:1 in order to get the maximum benifit of the higher octane in e85.

My thinking is that if I got into a location where e85 wasn't available, I could get by with regular high octane fuel.

thanks for your input.

 

[RusselAZ]

Why don't you just put it on propane and do the same thing?

 

[jd b puller]

(quoted from post at 01:10:52 05/22/08) I didn't make myself clear on this topic earlier.

I don't want to build a performance engine, I want to build an engine that will perform efficiently while running on e85. A couple days ago e85 was priced at 2.36 where I live.

What engine would be a good candidate for rebuilding and run on e85? Like I mentioned earlier, from what I read, an engine would have to have a compression ratio of around 11:1 in order to get the maximum benifit of the higher octane in e85.

My thinking is that if I got into a location where e85 wasn't available, I could get by with regular high octane fuel.

thanks for your input.

So, what kind of vehicle do you want to put it in? Carb or EFI? If you go EFT, can you change the programming to inject more fuel?

For simplicity, a Chevy 350 with 2 barrel would seem a good choice - cheap to buy, parts are cheap and it probably needs a rebuild anyway. Would think with the right rods/heads, you can get the comp up where you want it.

 

[buickanddeere]

Expansion ratio is where the efficiency comes from. This topic was touched upon within the past week. Do you want to run an Otto cycle for power or Akinson cycle for efficiency?
In any case fuel injection with feedback from an O2 sensor will be required.
The cheapest, best working, least headaches and most efficenct course of action. Would be to purchase an E85 ready vehicle.
Pulling a 20mpg 350 $4.00 gallon gasser and installing a 20mpg 350 $2.36 gallon E85 isn"t going to happen.

 

[Frank A]

You may never have any problems but its against EPA rules to run any other fuel in a vehicle made for unleaded fuel only. There is no aftermarket EPA approved conversion kit for E85 from unleaded. If you do convert you may need super unleaded although the computer might compensate I wouldn't count on it.

 

[1936]

Don't have an answer, but under stand why the question. Last week in Des Moines, Iowa E 85 2.79 a gallion.

What if you used a per 1974 vehicle to convert?? Have to change over any seals that will touch E 85??????????

Have a friend with an E 85 half ton off rd 4 dr Chev. He gets one mile less to the gallon on the highway with E 85.

 

[flashback]

What percentage of his mileage is 1 MPG. If it is like most trucks of that nature in this area he only get 10 to 12 MPG on gasoline so that would be almost 10 percent as is normally reported. Jack

 

[HENRY E NC]

Propane is an oil product and will contnue to go up also. Right now in this area propane is reachinmg 3.25 a gallon for fall delivery. Henry

 

[rustyfarmall]

E-85 IS unleaded.

 

[Kentb of SWMO]

Look to HOT ROD mag. They are doing some things with E-85. The drag races love this fuel. The can legally drive their cars to the track on the fuel they use to race. There was a story of a guy who had converted his car to E-85. On his first run with E-85 his trans blew at the 900 foot mark and he coasted to the finish and still ran the fastest time he had ever run with the same car with a full pass on gasoline.

Kent

 

[trucker40]

I dont see why there are so many people on this web site against ethanol?While not really just saying no you cant do it,want to discourage you from doing it.
Go ahead and build your motor after you study up on it.I think from what Ive read in the past you can run alcohol in any motor with a carburetor on it.You have to change the jets maybe 2 sizes bigger if I remember right.While you are at it maybe rig up a turbo on it too.Since you have to put more fuel in it,maybe it will help your efficiency to force feed it some air and cut back on your fuel some.
The thing about straight alcohol was they had to spray the carburetor internal parts with WD40 when they shut it off,because the alcohol would rust it to where it would sieze up.Thats maybe part of the reason for E85,so there is a little gas in there to keep stuff from siezing up.
Read all you can so that when you get ready to get your parts,you can ask somebody and know what they are talking about when they answer.Those alcohol pulling trucks put out lots of power,and dont have water for a cooling system.I think with the right combination,and that probably means a turbo,you can build a motor that gets close to as good of gas mileage(maybe better)then gas,and plenty of power.I dont think you even need fuel injection unless thats what you want to build.They use carburetors on those pulling trucks at least they did a few years ago.
If its fuel mileage you want,maybe build a v6 or 4 cylinder to use E85.I am reasonably sure that motors we have all over the place can be made to run on E85 and not be that hard to do.Where it might cause you to have problems is any rubber lines or rubber parts inside the carburetor would probably have to be replaced with new stuff that can stand ethanol.Anything that has a computer should be able to be set to where it will work.Yeah there are going to be those that say dont do it,or you cant,or it wont get as good of mileage,but thats always the way it is.You are doing the right thing because you can bet there are lots of people thinking the same way you are.Its only a matter of time and we all will be running E85.Somebody is going to figure out how to get good mileage with it,might as well be you as somebody else.

 

[jd b puller]

B&D, are there any practical applications of Akinson engines running? Not table top versions, but actual working machines?

Thanks,

 

[Anonymous-0]

Maybe look at a Brazilion engine? Ford and GM old iron block and head designs from late 60s hot rod days were used initially for the Brazil ethanol tests, production engine were similar- the old Pontiac 200 inch slant 4 was used in mid sized GM bodies, the variation of inline 4 2.5 also in smaller bodies. Ford had something derived from old 312/332 block and the 140 inch 4. Iron used instead of aluminum, teflon or Kelvar instead of rubber/nylon hoses and seals, 2 fuel tanks-1 gasoline, 1 ethanol, ethanol preheater/heat exchanger from engine hot water before Ethanol line went into carburetor. 11,12/1 compression ratios and wide advance ignition systems. When warmed up and running ethanol were little hotrods. Ford(?) had a variable compression blower experiment- drive was a variable speed belt drive like snowmobiles used coupled to a rotary vane positive displacement supercharger- low ratio gave in effect about a 8/1 compression ratio, the high speed on drive gave effective 11/1 compression ratio and was used with the ethanol- a blend of fuel could be used with belt pulleys set to midrange, also belt ratio dropped when knock sensor had pings. Honda 125 motorcycle was featured in Cycle Guide(?) few years back- Iron used in head, other changes for ethanol like cars- Another little hot rod getting real good mileage. RN

 

[Anonymous-0]

That's an awful price also. Last winter I paid as much as 3.85 a gal for 30# bottle fills!!

A small percentage of propane comes from oil refining, most of it comes from natural gas processing. I long for .06 a gallon propane!!

Dirty little secret is I bet they use a lot of expensive propane to make enthol.

 

[buickanddeere]

The Ford, Honda & Toyota hybrids are running 12 to 1 mechanical expansion ratios.

 

[buickanddeere]

Two jet sizes are not enough. A carb doesn't have the feedback and flexibility to run gasoline, E85 or a blend. Fuel injection with feedback is required.
How are you going to run a turbo? It's either 8.5 to 1 compression with forced induction which tosses any part throttle E85 efficiency gains out the window in exchange for w.o.t. power.
Or detonate the engine to bits with 12 to 1 compression and forced induction.
If electronically controlled one maybe able to squeeze almost natural aspirated Otto cycle power from a mildly turboed Atkinson engine. A somewhat more complex and finiky beast.

 

[Frank A]

You should do a little more research. I work for a farmer owned oil coop that premotes home grown fuel.

 

[Frank A]

I replied to the wrong post but anyway you should check your facts.

 

[onefarmer]

I agree with Rusty. E85 is unleaded. It is a blend of 100% alcohol and unleaded gas. Ideally 85% alcohol and 15% unleaded, hence the name "E85". There is no lead in the mix and therefore it is unleaded.

In all cars built after 1975 that have a catalytic converter you must run unleaded fuel, as lead will coat the cat making it useless. This is why they say unleaded only. E85 is just one modern fuel that is unleaded.

 

[Frank A]

It's to bad the EPA doesn't agree with you. Go to e85fuel.com and see for yourself.The Clean Air Act Amendment of 1990 Gave the EPA authorty to implement regulations that required exhaust emissions from vehicle coverted to an alternate fuel to be as clean as the emissions of the original gasoline equipment. So far there it has not granted its certification for an automobile conversion kit for E85.In case you didn't know the EPa can levy fines for altering any emission device on a vehicle.

 

[onefarmer]

Maybe so, but I'll bet any engine converted to E85 burns much cleaner than it did before on 100% gas.

 

[jd b puller]

(quoted from post at 22:04:39 05/23/08) It's to bad the EPA doesn't agree with you. Go to e85fuel.com and see for yourself.The Clean Air Act Amendment of 1990 Gave the EPA authorty to implement regulations that required exhaust emissions from vehicle coverted to an alternate fuel to be as clean as the emissions of the original gasoline equipment. So far there it has not granted its certification for an automobile conversion kit for E85.In case you didn't know the EPa can levy fines for altering any emission device on a vehicle.

And you'd get caught how?

 

[Frank A]

On that I agree I went to college in 2000 for Ag Mech. and Diesel Tech.[I was what thry call a non tradition student] [I think that means old].Anyway they had a 1985 chevy running on e85 that after 100,000 mile they sent back to G M to tear down an check from what I heard it looked realy good and clean. I'm not against ethonal I just think people need to be informed of problems and risks before they invest too much.

 

[Frank A]

It depends on what inspections you state has.