OT? electric water heater

[Anonymous-0]

In a local church they have a 80 gallon electric water heater. It can not begin to keep up when they are hosting fund raiser suppers.

My question is this. Why can't we wire it so instead of the top element satisfying its needs first then the lower unit kicking in. I'm thinking kick both elemets in as soon as the top one demands heat. We could also set it very hot and use less, but it seems like other than wirring it should work. Will the top thermostat handle a double load if fused up or something on that order? I have no idea of the wattage of the elements, nor the brand name. It is my guess less than five years old considering the copper pipe connections.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Likely 4400 watt elements. One element draws 18 amps on 240 volts. Two would draw 36 amps, more than the typical 30 amp hot water circuit would supply.

The upper thermostat probably wouldn't carry both for long without welding the contacts. I'd wish for a second thermostat up top with a independent breaker and wire for the lower element to increase the recovery speed. Or larger elements in both positions and enhanced wiring to supply them.

It might be easier in concept to add a second hot water heater.

Gerald J.

 

[Bus Driver]

I would check to see if the bottom element is really heating. The top thermostat first sends power to the top element. When the top thermostat senses the proper temperature, it shuts off the top element and sends power to the bottom thermostat. It controls power to the bottom element. If the bottom element does not heat, the tank will have about 1/3 of it's gallonage capacity as hot water.

 

[Anonymous-0]

The bottom element is often buried in lime deposits and has trouble heating the water.

 

[Spook]

I would bet on that. Especially if the heater has been there more than a year or so.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Thanks everyone. Gearld, could the top thermostat trip a contactor for the lower unit? Wiring would have to be seperated for two 30 amps breakers. I was thinking In a square D box using a copper wire making it imposible to throw only one breaker? The same way you make a tandem out of two 120v singles?

For the others that posted it is fairly new, and I understand the lime thing as we are built on limestone, will check that out before proceeding. The reason I suggest this double wirring thing is very few folks that are so called self proclaimed experts that run the church ever wash dishes. You know what I mean, most organizations are that way, those folks are usualy blessed with managment skills, gifted in their own minds with extra social and public relations. They simply greet the public and advise other that they need to hurry and do something as they sit on their royal butts. They would see no need for a extra hot water heater, probably save that money for nicer vases for the flowers, thus making flowers more attractive for the glory of God. You all know the way things go.

I could afford to rewire out of my pocket, but not donate a new water heater.

 

[Crem]

You can use a clamp-on ammeter to see if the lower element is drawing current. Even if it is drawing current though, that wouldn't tell you if it was limed up.

 

[John M]

80 gallons cant keep up? Sounds like one of the elements or tstats is burned out. Id repalce BOTH of them before I went any further.

 

[HENRY E NC]

I am with Gerald J on this. You would not have to add an 80 gal, just a 50gal or a 40. They should be plumbed in so either one or both could be used. Could actually save money to use the smaller when larger not needed and the cost would be for a new circuit, small amount of pipe and the heater. Being a church, the most efficient is not needed because it is noy used 24/7 as at home. We did a cost study of a/C equipment in Seer 12 or 18, 220V or 440V. 3PH I turned out that the lowest efficiency rating and the 220 single PH would take at least 14 years in our church to breakeven on power VS cost of higher efficiency 3 ph units.

Churches are different animals altogether andcan be vasly over built Henry

 

[Anonymous-0]

Yes a contactor with a 240 volt coil would work. Its coil would be hooked in parallel with the top element and could supply power to the lower element.

And lime can be a real problem. They keep telling us to drain a bucket or two each month. Never gets done. Its a real pain to scoop out lime through the opening where the lower element was. I've tried it.

Gerald J.

 

[huntingreen]

I would not modify the water heater. The recovery rate is probably only about 45 gallons per hour. Maybe even less with that big of water heater. 2 seperate circuits and 2 smaller water heaters would be the way to go.

 

[Steven f/AZ]

I would begin by pulling the elements out to see if they are corroded or even working...

When my water heater goes out, I'm putting in an on-demand unit that will supply hot water endlessly.

80 gallon water heater should be able to put out about 100 gallons of hot water in one shot...

Maybe they need to be taught to fill the sink with water for rinsing instead of letting the faucet run constantly?

 

[tn terry t]

(quoted from post at 12:25:09 03/09/08) In a local church they have a 80 gallon electric water heater. It can not begin to keep up when they are hosting fund raiser suppers.

My question is this. Why can't we wire it so instead of the top element satisfying its needs first then the lower unit kicking in. I'm thinking kick both elemets in as soon as the top one demands heat. We could also set it very hot and use less, but it seems like other than wirring it should work. Will the top thermostat handle a double load if fused up or something on that order? I have no idea of the wattage of the elements, nor the brand name. It is my guess less than five years old considering the copper pipe connections.

Thanks in advance.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO DO THAT! Think about it if something happens to or even close to that riged-up heater guess what the outcome is gona be when the insurance get ahold of it. aint noway i would take that on. there are heater models that are wired from the factory to run two elements at once

 

[El Toro]

If you have natural gas or propane gas I would replace the existing heater. You won't run out of hot water and a 40 or 50 gallon water heater would suffice. Hal

 

[jose bagge]

first, the suggestion to check the elements was a good one. If the church is on well water, you'd be surprised at how fast these babies corrode away.
second- why not just add another hot water heater? I have two in my house- one for the kids bathroom and the kitchen, and one for my bathroom (I got tired of never having hot water for myself). Electric hot water heaters are not that expensive and are easy to plumb.

 

[Bruce Hopf]

How old is the water heater?
Is the hydro bill for the church, higher than other months, or years
If your your hydro bill for the church is higher than normal, your water heater needs replacing. Easy to test. Go to your hydro meter, and time how fast the4 meter goes around. Then turn the breaker off for the hot water hearer, and repeat step one. The hydro meter should turn real slow. I had this problem here, and my hotwater heater was running all the time. I since replaced it and my hydro bill dropped drasticly. Somthing to keep in mind
Also, you can adjust the heat settings for the water heater. Open the little doors, for the elements, and there is a little needle, that can be turned to a higher setting, or lower setting. There is one for each element. Set the both the same. Hopefully this helps.

 

[Bruce Hopf]

I've read the other messages, and if the water heater is old, and if the bottom element is covered with lime, don't just replace the element, replace the whole water heater, because in a short time the new element will be covered with lime. also a good chance the new element will leak, because there4 might be a lime build up, or corrozion around the seal, and won't seal right. It will be cheaper in the long run to have the hot water heater replaced. Also keep this in mind. My Father was a plumber, and that is what I learned. Hope this also helps.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Please read the reasons on the lower post and age / details. I work on water heaters all the time, and replace the lower elements often that are under the lime. After disconecting the power. Shut off water, leave the water heater full. bend a small 22 to 45 degree angle in a three ft chunk of rebar and remove the lower element. As the water gushes out hook deep inside the heater and the water will move the lime out once you dig it loose. The ribs on the rebar will rake out the lime as you pull towards yourself and make another stroke. Turn the water on after you start, the more water the better. You must remember to cover the floor drain with hardware clothe or something similar so the pile of lime does not go down the drain. A broom will hold back alot of the lime if you have a helper. This is under the asumption the water heater is in the basement. Ya you do get wet, but it always works good. There are the ones that have not been cleaned for years and the element twists off, and it is more like cement, those are in need of replacment. I myself have never had issues sealing the element, but care must be used with the rebar not to destroy the threads.

I will check out all the options, and I did not look things over the other night, just looked at it in the dim light with my good cloths on, and no tools. There is a old water heater a little ways away that they did not take up the stairs. I had no flashlight either. A wimdow was open also, and probably since last summer as no one ever goes down there from the looks of things.

I was prety upset that they made me wash dishes in cold water, not luke warm even so they could conserve the hot water. I read a coment to tell them to not use runnig water etc. Anyone care to come make the suggestion to the ladies, I will put my money on the ladies, at least 10 - 1 odds. They used cold water only to hose down stuff. I was under the assumption it was a joke to use cold water, and started to turn on the hot to rinse out a dish rag. A lady reched in front of me and turned it off, reminded me to not use ANY hot water. I never stired the pot, as I was out numbered by seven or eight ladies. I sure was wondering what would happen if a health inspector walked in, as I have never used cold water for dishes that I can ever remember even camping. Turning up the temprature is a good suggestion that I already thought of, but there are little kids helping at times, and this also hooks to the bathrooms etc.

I personaly think something like the lower element is not working, because 80 gallon of hot water is alot, and a heater running over a five hr ordeal should make for alot of hot water. My observations were that no one was wasting a drop of hot water. I would also assume there was only fifty gallons estamated in my head, however that is imposible to know for sure.

If it rains I will have time to check it out maybe, I would rather stay out of it, but then here I am, knowing I will be asked to do something if I don't volenteer. I will post back when and if I do get involved. I don't belong to the church nor even that religion, I just went to help out.