OT Ethanol

[Tom N MS]

Has anyone noticed a significant deop in mpg since ethanol has been added? My brother has a
late 80s or early 90s Toyota or Nissan car and he swears that his mileage has dropped really significantly with ethanol. A local service station owner asked his son a few days ago if he would be willing to pay 5-6 cents more per gallon to get gas with no ethanol. Don"t know where he would get it or how long he"d get it but he must be considering something.

 

[Paul in MN]

When I am driving the car on long trips (freeway driving) I lose 8 to 10% mpg in states where 10% ethanol is mandated. When I am pulling a trailer with the 93 E350 van w/351 fuel injected engine, I seem to lose even more than 10% mpg. With the older carburator vehicles (my Dodge W250 truck) the towing loss seems to be greater than 15% and maybe as high as 20%, ethanol compared to gasoline. But as both of those mpg's is so bad, I no longer take either Van or Dodge on long highway runs, but use my 02 Powerstroke F350 Ford instead. It will pull a 12,000 lb 5th wheel 37 ft camper trailer (12.5 ft tall) on the highway at 11 to 12 mpg using diesel fuel. Like gasoline, winter blend diesel gives a bit less mpg than summer blend.

I wish I had exact mpg figures, but a good estimate is all I have needed to do my trip planning.

Paul in MN

 

[Anonymous-0]

I am told you can purchase gasoline w/o ethanol from most small airports.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 18:37:38 01/16/11) Has anyone noticed a significant deop in mpg since ethanol has been added? My brother has a
late 80s or early 90s Toyota or Nissan car and he swears that his mileage has dropped really significantly with ethanol. A local service station owner asked his son a few days ago if he would be willing to pay 5-6 cents more per gallon to get gas with no ethanol. Don"t know where he would get it or how long he"d get it but he must be considering something.

om, some loss should be expected, based on energy content, but it isn't huge.

Gasoline has about 115,000 BTU/gallon content , whereas ethanol has about 76,000 BTU/gallon. So compare 115,000 to {115,000X0.9 + 76,000X0.1} =111,000. Then 111,000/115,000 = 0.96 or about a 4% loss, so if previously 20MPG, look for {20X 0.96} = 19.2MPG
That's the way I see it.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 18:37:38 01/16/11) Has anyone noticed a significant deop in mpg since ethanol has been added? My brother has a
late 80s or early 90s Toyota or Nissan car and he swears that his mileage has dropped really significantly with ethanol. A local service station owner asked his son a few days ago if he would be willing to pay 5-6 cents more per gallon to get gas with no ethanol. Don"t know where he would get it or how long he"d get it but he must be considering something.

The energy content of ethanol is rougthly 67% of gasloine. So 10% gasohol has roughly 96.7% of the energy of pure gasoline. I would expect a 3.3% loss in MPG.

YMMV,

TOH

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 19:36:01 01/16/11)

(quoted from post at 18:37:38 01/16/11) Has anyone noticed a significant deop in mpg since ethanol has been added? My brother has a
late 80s or early 90s Toyota or Nissan car and he swears that his mileage has dropped really significantly with ethanol. A local service station owner asked his son a few days ago if he would be willing to pay 5-6 cents more per gallon to get gas with no ethanol. Don"t know where he would get it or how long he"d get it but he must be considering something.

om, some loss should be expected, based on energy content, but it isn't huge.

Gasoline has about 115,000 BTU/gallon content , whereas ethanol has about 76,000 BTU/gallon. So compare 115,000 to {115,000X0.9 + 76,000X0.1} =111,000. Then 111,000/115,000 = 0.96 or about a 4% loss, so if previously 20MPG, look for {20X 0.96} = 19.2MPG
That's the way I see it.

You beat me!

TOH

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 19:37:49 01/16/11)

(quoted from post at 19:36:01 01/16/11)

(quoted from post at 18:37:38 01/16/11) Has anyone noticed a significant deop in mpg since ethanol has been added? My brother has a
late 80s or early 90s Toyota or Nissan car and he swears that his mileage has dropped really significantly with ethanol. A local service station owner asked his son a few days ago if he would be willing to pay 5-6 cents more per gallon to get gas with no ethanol. Don"t know where he would get it or how long he"d get it but he must be considering something.

om, some loss should be expected, based on energy content, but it isn't huge.

Gasoline has about 115,000 BTU/gallon content , whereas ethanol has about 76,000 BTU/gallon. So compare 115,000 to {115,000X0.9 + 76,000X0.1} =111,000. Then 111,000/115,000 = 0.96 or about a 4% loss, so if previously 20MPG, look for {20X 0.96} = 19.2MPG
That's the way I see it.

You beat me!

TOH

ust be about right, as we about agree! :lol:

 

[stewartr]

Due to the renewable fuel standard, getting ethanol free gasoline may be difficult. The standard created a new market for the credit received when ethanol is added, known as R.E.N.'s, or renewable energy numbers. Every refinery is required to present their REN's to the federal government, as proof that they are meeting their renewable energy requirement.

Some gasoline distributors purchase their fuel blended, and some purchase bulk ethanol and blend it themselves. Either way, REN's have a value that is often higher than the profit margin from selling that gallon of gasoline (at the distributor level). It may be really hard to find un-blended gasoline.

If you had access to ethanol free gas, you would have to blend in some other additive to get the proper octane level (depending on what you're burning it in). Engine knock is a real problem, and the use of MTBE as a fuel additive is frowned upon due to the fact that it easily contaminates ground water.

Here's an interesting link on the fuel economy side of it (chapter# 3, about 1/3 down the page):

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/oxygenate.htm

 

[Gaspump]

Here in most parts of FL you can buy marine gas that has no ethanol (M-85?) but the pumps are usually on the marina pier and it can be quite pricey. We have one local LP gas dealer that has drive up non-ethanol pumps but the price is usually 20-30 cents over 10% regular. Not worth it except for small power tool use where it saves me one Heck of a lot of headaches and repair costs.

 

[Tom N MS]

Thanks to all of you for the info. Going to tell my brother to check other reasons for mpg loss-according to the numbers he quoted today, he has seen 20-25% loss.

 

[Jerry9N]

You can get ethanol free gas at the airport, but expect to pay five bucks or so a gallon. It's a 'boutique' fuel now, because only small planes use it, the commercial operators use jet fuel (kerosene) and the autos have all been forced to switch to ethanol. The FAA is looking at alternative fuels for small planes now, but they haven't announced any decisions yet.
By the time I buy Stabil and gas, and the time spent working on little engines that don't run often, I'm thinking I might pay the price and start using it in the tractor and generators, etc.
Jerry

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 20:14:09 01/16/11) Thanks to all of you for the info. Going to tell my brother to check other reasons for mpg loss-according to the numbers he quoted today, he has seen 20-25% loss.

ou didn't say........maybe he is running E85? Whole 'nother story there. :?:

 

[Tom N MS]

It definitely is not good for small engines so I have to think it is no good for all engines. Thanks for the info.

 

[Tom N MS]

All I have seen on any pumps says may contain up to 10% Ethanol, so I am reasonably sure that is what he is having to get.

 

[Paul in MN]

Tom,

I've been thinking about my somewhat "high" mpg losses with E-10, as compared to the theoretical BTU content etc. I think the difference has to do with the age and technology of the engine, and how great a load is being pulled. A carburated engine can do no more than open up the enricher valve if so equipped (my old Loadstar w/ Holley carb), and allow the driver to stick his foot further into the gas pedal. The first generation fuel injected vehicles of the late 80's and early 90's could adjust the amount of fuel injected per power stroke as dictated by oxygen sensors and a few other sensors. But ethanol is messing with the oxygen level in the exhaust, so that is not a truely efficient use of fuel for power. The state of the art electronic auto technology which can affect cam timing, injection timing and spark timing as deemed most efficient for the load being pulled and the ambient air temp, engine temp, plus a whole lot of other factors, can lead to a fuel usage that approaches the theoretical BTU content differences.

So is it possible that BIL has such a mpg difference by using E-10?? Maybe....depending on a whole lot of factors. This is not a "one answer fits all" kind of question.

Paul in MN

 

[Dean]

Alternatively, he can go to a small airport or ,maybe, a marina, buy one full tank of ethanol free gasoline and verify.

Dean

 

[Anonymous-0]

In Western WI some of the small town stations (Cenex) carry what we call real gas, No ethonal for about 8-10 cents more a gallon.

 

[Lamar Fudd]

He should see a 10% loss. Our Taurus flex-fuel will get 31 mpg all highway when running on 'real' gasoline, but it drops to 28-29 mpg on ethanol. It has a guage that tells the amount of ethanol in the fuel.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 18:00:02 01/17/11) He should see a 10% loss. Our Taurus flex-fuel will get 31 mpg all highway when running on 'real' gasoline, but it drops to 28-29 mpg on ethanol. It has a guage that tells the amount of ethanol in the fuel.

I'm sorry but I must comment. That's an interesting metric. The ethanol in the fuel mix takes up 10% by volume and contributes exactly zero in the way of energy when combusted? And this on a state of the art vehicle specifically designed to use ethanol blends to their maximum efficiency. Do you see an 85% reduction in mileage (e.g 4.5 MPG highway) when you switch to E85?

Anecdotally - the monthly average MPG on my 2006 Dodge hemi truck floats anywhere from 13 to 18 mpg on the exact same fuel out of the exact same pump running the exact same route with me doing the driving. This is a very difficult measurement to control using normal highway driving as your test setup. To many variables in addition to the fuel even on a day long jaunt down an interstate highway.

TOH

 

[soqueu]

There are many ethanol free places still left in your state. all you have to do is go here http://www.pure-gas.org and click on your state. Best gas for all your small engine needs!

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 18:47:14 01/17/11)

(quoted from post at 18:00:02 01/17/11) He should see a 10% loss. Our Taurus flex-fuel will get 31 mpg all highway when running on 'real' gasoline, but it drops to 28-29 mpg on ethanol. It has a guage that tells the amount of ethanol in the fuel.

I'm sorry but I must comment. That's an interesting metric. The ethanol in the fuel mix takes up 10% by volume and contributes exactly zero in the way of energy when combusted? And this on a state of the art vehicle specifically designed to use ethanol blends to their maximum efficiency. Do you see an 85% reduction in mileage (e.g 4.5 MPG highway) when you switch to E85?

Anecdotally - the monthly average MPG on my 2006 Dodge hemi truck floats anywhere from 13 to 18 mpg on the exact same fuel out of the exact same pump running the exact same route with me doing the driving. This is a very difficult measurement to control using normal highway driving as your test setup. To many variables in addition to the fuel even on a day long jaunt down an interstate highway.

TOH

XACTLY! TOH. Keep records over a 6 month period, then report back.......after that, we can discuss it.

 

[oldtanker]

(quoted from post at 15:47:14 01/17/11)

(quoted from post at 18:00:02 01/17/11) He should see a 10% loss. Our Taurus flex-fuel will get 31 mpg all highway when running on 'real' gasoline, but it drops to 28-29 mpg on ethanol. It has a guage that tells the amount of ethanol in the fuel.

I'm sorry but I must comment. That's an interesting metric. The ethanol in the fuel mix takes up 10% by volume and contributes exactly zero in the way of energy when combusted? And this on a state of the art vehicle specifically designed to use ethanol blends to their maximum efficiency. Do you see an 85% reduction in mileage (e.g 4.5 MPG highway) when you switch to E85?

Anecdotally - the monthly average MPG on my 2006 Dodge hemi truck floats anywhere from 13 to 18 mpg on the exact same fuel out of the exact same pump running the exact same route with me doing the driving. This is a very difficult measurement to control using normal highway driving as your test setup. To many variables in addition to the fuel even on a day long jaunt down an interstate highway.

TOH

Everyone I know with a fles fuel vehicle who has tried E85 went back to the 10% mix. Seems that they have a noticable loss of both performance and mileage. I don't know, just going by what they are saying.

Rick

 

[MDFord8N]

Maybe with the new nnalert Congress, now would be the time to write all of our representatives and ask them to push for no Ethanol in the fuel...It isn't cost effective without government subsidies and it cuts MPG, let alone not good for many engines. All it has done is make certain people rich through our tax dollars, oh and drove up corn prices...

 

[Jon Hagen]

E10 will not give you a 10% loss of mpg.>
100% ethanol has 30% less btu's than 100% gasoline, so fuel that is 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol (E10) has 3% less btu's than 100% gasoline.
If your seeing more than a 3% mpg drop with E10, your car has a problem.(something out of spec or a bad engine design.)

My Toyota Prius which has a high compression engine (13/1) that can gain conversion efficiency from the higher octane (90) of E10, makes 2-3 mpg better on 90 octane E10 than it does on 87 octane pure gasoline.

Ethanol is a fact of life and there is no excuse for car makers not producing engines that can take advantage of higher octane Ethanol / gasoline blends.

 

[gahorN]

(quoted from post at 19:20:06 01/16/11) I am told you can purchase gasoline w/o ethanol from most small airports.

Yes...but be careful to insure that what you are buying is MOgas...not AVgas. (or you'll ruin your catalytic converter and oxygen sensor.)
Also, be aware that if you buy it (and they sell it to your for road-use) you may become subject to prosecution for tax evasion by both the state and the feds.