OT: Finally figured out the real reason

[Hugh MacKay]

I finally figured out the real reason why we have front wheel drive cars. I've always driven full size Buicks or Olds, Lesabre or Delta 88. The front wheel drive while marginally more efficient on fuel, has bee a pain in the butt on repairs. I'm damn sure my 90s Lesabre would never follow those old 70s and 80s on whinding country roads, nor would it handle as well. I once went through a traffic circle intersection at 60 mph with my 79 Olds, trying to catch the PEI ferry at 6am. ( no traffic out other than guys going same direction as I). You try that with this new front drive Buick, and I guarentee you'll end up in the woods

Yesterday I was going east to London on the 402 4 lane highway. I looked across and on the west bound lanes shoulder was a tow truck heading east with a big old Chevy Caprice in tow with rear wheels raised. I soon passed him, yet before I realized he was passing me on the east bound lanes. He had crossed over on one of those emergency vehicle cross overs. By gosh, front wheel drive allows tow truck operators to pickup car by drive wheels, and proceed with traffic flow. Never thought about that one before, however I wouldn't want to drive down that shoulder opposing traffic, nor would I want to try and turn with that Caprice in tow on traffic lanes. Previous to this, the only real benefit I saw was engine over drive wheels in stop and go winter driving.

 

[rustyfarmall]

And did you ever see the diameter of the drive axles on those front wheel drives? Makes a guy wonder how the car ever made it off the assembly line!

 

[mkirsch]

My folks always bad-mouthed front wheel drive cars until they were forced to buy one. Now they wouldn't have anything else.

Marginally more efficient? Their '91 Caprice got 15MPG. The '07 Impala gets 28MPG.

The Impala has lots more get-up-and-go with two fewer cylinders and a whole lot less cubes. That Caprice's 305 was a powerhouse for its day, but compared to the Impala, it was a DOG.

The Impala is a smaller car, but it feels more comfortable. By comparison the Caprice was like riding in the back of a panel van on a lawn chair.

Maintenance? Modern CV joints and half-shafts last about 150,000 miles, which is like a quarter million Kilometers, right? The U-joints on my truck were siezing up at 90,000.

Complaining about the axle diameter? It's solid high-tensile steel. That's way more than you need to transfer half the engine's HP over 18" to the wheel. My Chevy's driveshaft is a piece of stove pipe, thin-walled tube, and that's transferring ALL the engine HP over about 8 feet to the rear axle.

 

[rustyfarmall]

I've never seen a driveshaft for rear wheel drive twist in two. I have seen u-joints totally destroyed due to abuse, but the u-joints can be replaced and the original driveshaft will live forever.

 

[KEB1]

Actually, I'm sure it has more to do with manufacturing economy than anything else. With front wheel drive, the entire drive train can be assembled separately and installed in the car as a unit. With cars no longer having body-on-frame construction, it would be a real manufacturing nightmare to try to assemble a traditional rear wheel drive train on the assembly line.

In fact, I did an engine overhaul on an older Grand Am for one of my kids, and to get to the engine it was easiest to drop the entire drive train & pull it out from under the car.

Keith

 

[Allan in NE]

Yep,

That's exactly why they did it. Unibody construction.

Plus, we swapped a driveshaft for a chaindrive. :>)

Allan

 

[Hugh MacKay]

mkirsch: Ah yes, but you bought Chevy's. I had a 74 Olds, 455, 4 barrel, highway driving it would give me 23 mpg. One day a friend was travelling with me, we had driven 160 miles, I drew his attention to my fuel gauge at 3/4 full. Bear in mind this guy was a recent English immigrant, enjoyed making fun of our "BIG AMERICAN CARS", as he called them. His responce, "By the hell, what's it got a 40 gallon tank". Nothing doing we had stop at next gas station, and the 23 mpg were his calculations, he even bought the gas. "Ah", he said, "And that damn 305 Chevelle of mine only gives 19 mpg doing same type driving.

My 79 Olds was a 403, 4 barrel without overdrive. Bear in mind I am talking imperial gallons 25% larger than US gallons. Highway driving at roughly 55-60 mph it would knock off 27 mpg highway driving. The front wheel drive Buick I have now, V6 with overdrive does well to hit 30 mpg. If I get in a hurry or want to get out of a situation on the highway quickly, the Buick won't hold a candle to that 79 Olds.

In 300,000 miles with the Olds I never bought anything but tires, one exhaust system, one battery, one set of shocks, fuel and lubricants. It never was back to dealer for warrenty. Compare that with the Buick, repairs are ten times that of the Olds, and it saw more than it's share of trips to dealer for warrenty. A large share of those repairs have been that suspension system and front drive.

I can understand inflation taking the price of vehicles and parts where they are today, but I also expect quality to be there. I don't like this damn running in for repairs everytime I go far from home. I've got better things to do with my time.

 

[big fred]

You ain't been around much, then. I've seen plenty of rear wheel drive driveshafts break. Always due to abuse. Same reason a front wheel drive halfshaft would break.

 

[rustyfarmall]

I have also noticed that just about the best EPA estimated fuel mileage of ALL 2008 cars is right at 30 MPG., and the cars that will get that fuel mileage are way to small and difficult for me to get into. By the time you move up to a car that IS comfortable and easy to get in, the estimated mileage has dropped to about 22 to 23. Now, there is just something wrong here. My old 1960 Chevy Belair 4 door with a 283 and powerglide would get 18MPG without even trying, and 20 to 22 was easily achievable.
Also, at the same time period, several folks I knew were easily getting 40 MPG with their Volkswagen Beetles.

 

[Red460]

I was interested to see they are making dirt track race cars built from front engine GM v6. I saw one in the mall on display. The one piece engine & tranny are in the rear of a tube frame (facing forward). The tie rods are welded up. Neat little buggy.

 

[Mark]

I guess we all have different experiences.

I bought a new Olds Cutlass in "79. It had a Chevy 305 with a 4 barrel. I recall 18 mpg on 4 US quarts.

A few years later, I bought a new "91 Buick LeSabre with a 3.8 V6.....28 mpg was the norm and it would eat that Old"s for lunch. I also had a "90 Lumina with a 3.1 V6...not quite as peppy, but never a complaint. Now, I have "01 Pontiac Gran Prix with a 3.1 V6....at 142,000 miles it still drives and runs like new. I"ve never done anything to it but brakes and tires.

I was sort of afraid of front wheel drive way back when they came out, en masse. But, after having had 4 of them and especially the first winter I drove in snowy roads.....I wouldn"t have anything else. I broke 12" of fresh wet snow with that Buick, something that would kept the rear drive Olds in the driveway.

 

[mkirsch]

Oh heck yeah, front wheel drives 20, even 15 years ago were good for 80-90-100K and then you better replace the half shafts and CV joints if you didn't want to end up on the side of the road in pieces. They keep refining the design over time and they get better and better. How do you think the semi-floating rear axle got to be so reliable and bulletproof in normal usage?

 

[Steven f/AZ]

Yep, them front wheel drives just don't last. Darn Honda cars are only good for around 250,000 miles before you have to put a CV axle in them - that is, if you push it a little bit.

http://www.hondabeat.com/highmiles.php

The unfortunate reality is, American made cars went downhill while the foreign made cars improved. NOW, the American made cars are beginning to catch up again - but the damage may already be done.

 

[rustyfarmall]

But, did you know that the most popular, and most desirable car to own in China is a U.S.A. made BUICK? 2nd place is the Cadillac, and the third most popular car in China is a Chevrolet. Saw it on the world news just the other evening.

And no, it is not just the status symbol appeal. The Chinese people honestly believe that the American made GM cars are much better than anything else available to them.

 

[Hugh MacKay]

Steven: We"ve got a 1988 Toyota Camery, nice little car we love it close to home. Now I realize these arn"t the same car as the modern Camery. It hasn"t required a lot of repair, however when it does the parts make quite a dent in the pocket book. Flywheel with ring was $500. from the shelf, tyrod and front wheel bearing installed including labor $360.

 

[Hugh MacKay]

Rusty: Remember I'm on Imperial gallons, rest of Canada has gone metric. My dad had a 57 Chevy inline 6 cylinder that gave him 27 mpg. Not a lot different from my Buick in lots of ways.

 

[Steven f/AZ]

(quoted from post at 14:26:36 08/08/08) Steven: We"ve got a 1988 Toyota Camery, nice little car we love it close to home. Now I realize these arn"t the same car as the modern Camery. It hasn"t required a lot of repair, however when it does the parts make quite a dent in the pocket book. Flywheel with ring was $500. from the shelf, tyrod and front wheel bearing installed including labor $360.

Oh, I agree on that respect. The '01 Accord timing belt is due every 60k miles (over 110 degrees, severe service!) - only every 120k under normal circumstances. BUT, it was $700 worth of routine maintenance at 65k for me... HOWEVER, when the transmission went out of my T-bird at 102k at a cost of $2500 - which costs more?

And, I may change my tune as the miles rack up. We are currently at 110k with normal routine maintenance (timing belt, tires, brakes is all so far). Hoping to get a good 200k out of it before major repairs (shocks, struts, tie rods, etc.).

I'd like to get my hands on a mid to late 90's Civic DX - easily get 40mpg and they are pretty bulletproof with the 5-speed. Darn kids all want them to hot rod, though.

 

[dave guest]

Forty years of driving, first front drive was Kcar. Glare ice under light snow. Going 25mph, not uphill, not downhill, but level road. No wind, not accelerating, not braking, steady like a rock. That little sucker did a spin 3 times and left me facing oncoming traffic. 1985, Never ever thought about front wheel drive again. Any theories as to what happened. I could never figure out any reason. Just glad to be alive!!!

 

[charles todd]

I have a 2001 Silverado 4x4, 4L6E, 3.73, 5.3L, 15-16 MPG. A 1979 C20 4.10, TH400, 350 4BBL, 8-10 MPG. We has a 2000 Chevrolet Malibu, 3.1 V6, it got 26-30 MPG and it was a DOG (140 hp).

We recently got this little English booger. 2008 Mini Cooper S, 1.6L Turbo (178 hp). Seats 4, 6ft+ people, gets 33 city/38 hwy, and will do 0-60 in 6.0 seconds, governed to 140 mph. A 2008 Mustang GT with more than 2x the HP does 5.6 seconds and gets considerably less MPG. I have had it to 125 mph and it was still pulling hard. Couple of weeks ago we went from Natchitoches, LA to Orange Beach, AL (430 miles). On the return trip (a Sunday) on I-10 and I-12, I was running 80-90 mph steady getting 32-34 MPG.

WIFE'S CAR

Left View

Front View

Rear View

Look Ma, No key and a Push Button to Start

Enjoy,
Charles

 

[Tim in NB]

Hugh, we have a Dodge Magnum station wagon with a 3.5 litre V6 and rear wheel drive. On a recent trip to Montreal from Saint John area of New Brunswick we obtained 35 imperial miles per gallon up and back. That was with the cruise set at 110 kms. With the traction control on these cars, I don't want to go back to front wheel drive.

 

[LA in Wi.]

Back in the 1973-1993 years, I drove Chevy Caprices (V8) as a sales rep for a big seed company.
We would trade them in at about 60-70,000 mi.
In 1991 or 1992 I took my "90 Caprice to the Chev dealer in Madison, Wi, to get my new car.

Before I left the dealership I noticed my old Chev V8 being loaded on a semi. I asked the salesman where the car was going. The salesman said "See that Arabian guy standing by that Lexus? (A well dressed man was standing there talking to someone.) Caprices are highly valued by the Kuwaiti"s (sp?) and that car is going to Kuwait. That guy is a buyer and goes to all the Chevy dealerships, buys the Caprice V8s, and sends them to Baltimore to be shipped out.".

The salesmen went on to tell me that when Saddem Hussein invaded Kuwait all the Kuwaiti"s headed for the Saudi Arabian border as fast as they could go...they just packed up their family and headed out, even across the desert since the few roads were blocked with traffic. He said the Chevy Caprice with the heavy frame, strong motor and good cooling was one of the few brands of cars that could make the high speed run without breaking down. Apparantly a lot of those little 4 & 6 bangers overheated and the passengers were left stranded in the desert, and captured by Saddem"s thugs.

 

[Janicholson]

Good reasoning.
I add that the superior snow traction, increased interior room, somewhat improved frontal collision crush resistance, and reduced total wt. are on the positive side as well. Rally Racers were all Fwd as that sport got into real action SAAB 3 cylinder 2 strokes etc. JimN

 

[charles todd]

The Mini Cooper was origianlly born as a Rally Racer. That was in the 60's. With the BMW's traction control on them now, they are one of the safest vehicles to drive. Not to mention 6 air bags.

 

[Anonymous-0]

All this talk of FWD cars makes me think I will go out and take the 67 Olds Toronado for a drive. The 425 and 10 foot hood will make for a smooth Sunday drive for sure. 43,000 original miles and previous owner stuck 15 grand in to this thing before he dumped it on me!

 

[charles todd]

The Olds Toronado is an interesting milestone in automotive engineering. I think it was in 1966 that they first offered it as a FWD. The transmission was a TH400 split in half and coupled together, side-by-side with a chain drive... I have never seen one in person, but a 425 BB with a modified TH400 stuffed under the hood must be a sight!

Charles

 

[Steven f/AZ]

Friend in high school had an Olds Toronado, I think it was an 81 with a 6.2 diesel in it. FWD, of course. Car rode and drove nice, he was going to sell it to me for $400 and wrecked it about a week before I got it.

 

[dianah]

we had a lot of ice this last winter and I now hate FWD because I had to drive on that ice!
Not good when you get stuck in snow either...so much easier to get out of snow with RWD. Makes me want to go back to the older model cars!

 

[Clefus]

Ive had my share of rear and front drive cars...
Best front wheel drive cars were an '85 and '87 chevy cavalier with the 2.0 4 cyl.....both cars had over 200k , reliable, good mileage....

Best rear wheel is the '87 Olds Cutlass 442 i still have collecting dust now....handled very good and drove like a dream.....