OT: Geothermal system expense

[blinwmiaol.com]

I know there are a few folks here that have geothermal heating systems in their homes, so I am asking for your experience. I am getting prices on a 5 ton Waterfurnace with an open loop. The ductwork I have is way undersized so I will have to get new duct from the basement up to both floors. The 2 quotes have me hooking up the electric to the unit as well as installing the drain field. One quote came back at 18,400 and the other at 18,700. Does this seem realistic? I had heard that an open loop system would be thousands cheaper, but I can't imagine anyone putting in a closed loop system costing close to 25 K. The few people I had heard from had closed systems put in for what mine is quoted. Am I just being hosed by the 2 local dealers, or is there some way this is reasonable? Appreciate any responses.

 

[Anonymous-0]

We built a new 1920 sq ft 3 bedroom home 3 years ago and have infloor heated floor with closed loop system, cost was less than $15000. Our house is passive solar oriented,superinsulated,has tripple glased high performance windows and with the geothermal system costs us about $120 per year to hwat and cool our house. We live near Madison,Wi.

 

[colekicker]

I have a groundsource system. Two wells to pump from and an injection well. It is really efficient in the summer, but it was really sucking energy this winter. I think that I am going to take advantage of some of my tax dollars and get some money back on insulation for my house. Add some more above in the attic.

 

[Fergienewbee]

We talked about geothermal when we built, but I didn't like the idea of just running the water out on the ground--open loop. A closed loop ran around $25,000 five years ago.

My BIL did his own for around $5,000. He runs the water down into an old well.

Larry in Michigan

 

[Gun guru]

Think of it this way, It will take years for the payback on a Geo-thermal system. $18k is a lot of $$$$$

Get real big wood burner, or pellet burner and be done, even with a geo-thermal system there are electric costs also.

 

[IaGary]

I have a 4 ton closed loop system. Installed in 2000 for $11,500 minus some rebates. At that time it would have been about $3000 more for a open system. A regular LP furnace with A/C was going to be $8000 to install. This was in a new house.

It is cheaper here to dig the pit for the water lines than it would be to drill 2 wells. A lot cheaper.

Why would an open system be cheaper for you?

Gary

 

[Bill in IN]

Have a system that was put in a couple years ago. Closed (4 ton) loop, with all the trimming for less than 15,000. I wanted oversize returns, lots of ductwork, and some other goodies. Open loop wouldn't have worked for me, and I had concerns about open loop anyway. Conditioning about 3000 sq. ft. but it's well insulated. Highest elec bill so far is < $150.

 

[Unruh]

We installed a 3-ton ground-source system last fall for just under $12,000 using existing ducts in a propane furnace. The existing propane furnace system stayed intact so if the lines do go down in an ice-storm, we still can run the furnace with a small generator. We have 3-180' deep holes with closed loops in them to heat and cool about 1,000 square feet. Last winter from Oct. 10 until April 15, our average cost to run the pump was 84 cents a day. I sure won't fool with cutting and carrying wood for that! Plus the heat is so even and clean. We're "sold" on it. There is an outfit around that will dig a "starter" hole for their machine and then bore a closed loop any distance and come up in your basement within six inches of where you want your unit. They can go down as far as seventy feet, twirl around under your house, garage, yard even do a clover-leaf. I'd have probably hired them if I'd known about them before messing up my back yard.

 

[Kestrel in CT]

I can't comment on your specific quotes but yes, closed loops are way more $$, at least here in Ct. I dropped a suitcase full of cash on my 5 ton closed loop, 2 x 350 ' vertical borings with Waterfurnace heat pump w/ a de-superheater, water to water system.

It made sense since I don't plan on moving and my existing oil furnace system was way undersized for my 3000 sg.ft home.

Payback time ?? I don't think in such terms. No fuel trucks coming to the house is good enough for me. But my electric bills did spike........so I went for a grid tied solar array out of frustration. NOW I'm free from all the BS, just poorer, but self reliant.
Basically, it's either pay now or pay later with homeownership.

 

[Jahaze]

I have a 5 ton open loop at my house in central Michigan. We used our existing 5" well and dump back into the stream on our property. It works well (the central air has been especially helpful), but we also have a propane furnace for back up. We have a 3,600 square foot house, and the whole system cost us $12,500 two years ago. I know prices have gone up a little in the past year, but you might want to keep asking around.
I expect the payback to be 5-7 years (maybe less if propane prices go back up).

 

[david - or]

I installed a 4 ton two-stage high-end FHP unit in 2004. I could have bought the raw unit for about $5000 through a couple sources on ebay, but warranty support may have been a problem.

Eventually I bought a unit through a local contractor that agreed to work with me. I'm an extreme DIY sort. For $11000 I got the unit, 1500 feet of ground loop tubing, and their installers to fusion weld the ground loop and fire up the unit, and agree to support me if there was a problem. (There wasn't -- the unit has been completely trouble free).

I dug the trenches with my backhoe and installed the "slinky" ground loop coils. No worries about OSHA and trench shoring when you do it yourself, so I went 7 feet down. (It was August and the local soils are very cohesive then).

I also designed, installed, and paid for all the ductwork. It was a new house, two stories plus basement. It was a difficult design task to make this system work with just one unit instead of the usual two, but it has worked out well.

I can heat or cool 4000 sq feet (plus 2000 sq feet of basement) for about $80 in the coldest/hottest months, near Portland, Oregon.

The compressor and air handler in the basement is no louder than a home refrigerator, and there's no outside condenser or fan to make noise.

Did all this make economic sense? I was quoted $25000 for a full turn-key two-unit air source system by a local contractor. This would have included attic-run flex-ducting, which I hate. But it would have been a lot less work on my part

Ground source units are considered a "boutique" product by HVAC contractors, and they charge a larger markeup than for air-source units. Your price quote of $18000 is not bad, assuming it includes all the ductwork needed. The systems are really nice and maintenance free once in place. (Open loop systems will require more cleaning/maintenance.)

 

[RAB]

If you think the two local dealers are in collusion, get another quote from a set-up who are a little further away. You may be right, or they may be competing aggressively with each other. Even if one dealer was to drop a grand, you would not know if the original price was a hike.

Regards, RAB

 

[buickanddeere]

Sounds steep $$$
How about pricing just an AC unit with the duct upgrades. And an air source heat pump with the ducting. Burying tubing outside should not add another 15-20 thousand on top of either.
Do you have access to clean reliable ground water? And a ditch,stream or an old well to dump the water back into?

 

[Ray]

We put in a 3.5 ton florida geo open loop system last winter.The water drains to our pond.It cost 9000,plus we got a 2000 dollar tax credit.We heated our house here in ohio for 50 bucks a month all winter,don't know what the AC is costing yet,but it will freeze you out of the house.

 

[Ray]

A big wood burner will almost cost as much as geo,and in some areas there outlawed.If you figure your actual cost with wood,saws,labor,agrivation it's not worth it.

 

[robersw]

I am in the middle of construction right now, and my system got installed last week. It is a 4-ton Waterfurnace with 1200 ft of trenches for the ground loop plus 100 ft for the header line. The system also has the superheater for making hot water and the intellizone for an upstairs and downstairs zone. All the work, trenching, ductwork, and geothermal system cost right at $21k. Remember right now through 2016 you can get a 30% tax credit on all geothermal system related installation costs.

 

[IaGary]

Yup agree with you Ray.

Cost me $375 a year, yes a year,to heat and cool my house with Geo Thermal.

Gary

 

[blinwmiaol.com]

The house I am purchasing has an old windmill well that has been condemned because the casing has rusted thru in several spots so for me to buy the house the seller had to drop the purchase price 4500 to cover the new 5 " well I will have put in. The only additional expense will be that I am having the well man put in a constant flow pump instead of a normal submersible pump and 80 gallon balance tank. The house sits on very course sand which makes it a bad conductor of heat for a closed loop systems but a great drain field for an open loop system. I have been told by 3 different installers that I will be good with 100 foot of 4" sock drain tile, which I am going to put in myself with the hoe. The one guy that gave me an estimate for a 5 ton waterfurnace also gave me a closed loop estimate and it was 6500 more. Unreal that a system could cost 25K. I think they must be jacking up the prices because they know that everyone will be getting the 30% tax credit that takes some of the sting away. I found out neither of the waterfurnace estimates included a desuperheater so that would be another 895. I can't justify 19,500 for a heating system tho, I don't see how it could ever pay for itself.

 

[buickanddeere]

How large of home and what climate? 1200ft will freeze solid in the winter.

 

[robersw]

Right under 2600 sq. ft. in north Alabama. The 1200' is just the trenches, there is around 2400' of tubing in the trenches 6' deep.

Oh, and for comparison purposes for everyone who thinks a standard AC systsem or heat pump is more cost efficient...the comparable system (which in an efficiency stand point is not comparable) with a zoned heat pump was $14,500 for my house.

So $21,000 -$6,300 (30% Tax Credit) = $14,700 for a system 4-5X more efficient. Then you have the operating cost, maintenance cost, plus my favorite, not having an unsitely condenser sitting outside your house.

 

[buickanddeere]

Certainly dumping heat into 60-80F earth will be more efficient than 100+F air. As for being 4-5 times more efficient, that's a stretch.
2400ft should do well enough in the south. My brother and Father recently installed systems. Each buried 4500ft of tubing in five trenches 300ft long and 6ft deep.Plus the headers.
In Ontario the return water temp was getting into the mid 30's by spring.