OT, Holmes Inspection

[Bob S.]

Howdy,
My wife watches DIY TV, this guy Holmes has her all worked up thinking our house may not be fit for habitation. It's my opinion that he uses scare tactics to make his show interesting. Last nite he told the homeowner that his furnace venting was dangerous and could cause an explosion. It seems if the high efficency furnace intake and vent pipes are within 3 ft of the central ac motor/compressor and both units are running at the same time and both malfunction at the same time (furnace burps and sends out unburned gas and ac unit shorts out and causes a spark) then you will have an explosion. So if it's a matter of code why not just tell the homeowner and not panic the whole neighborhood (and my wife)?
Bob S.

 

[IH2444]

Seems unlikely in any case, but the thermostat will only allow on or the other to run anyway.

 

[IOWA NORTHEAST]

I think she needs to worry more about someone dropping thousand dollar bills from a plane and smacking her dead.

Tell her cartoons are on another chanel, and more true to life.

 

[Bob]

I wonder home many fights and divorces those damned hone inspection/repair shows cause in a year?

 

[karl f]

Also keep in mind Holmes is filmed in Canada. USA and local "code" varies--a lot!


karl f

 

[Gun guru]

Tell your wife that if she is that worried about let HER pay for an inspector to get it checked out.
My wife (in her younger days) used to get all worried about trival Bullschitt like that. Her job keeps her worrying enough about more important stuff.

 

[MarkB_MI]

Either the furnace or A/C has to go! Which one does she want to give up?

My wife watches those DIY home repair shows all the time, although she has learned not to tell me everything she learns on them.

 

[thurlow]

I think he is just tho thweet; I just LUV the little stud in his ear. All the REAL men I know have one.......fess up; how many of y'all have an ear ring?

 

[36 Coupe]

There are requirements that vent pipes and chimneys be a certain distance from dormer windows.Methane gas from a septic system can stop your clock.Two fellows were trying to pump out an old steel septic tank.4 bolts held the cover on.Bolts were rusted tight so they got out the torch.First bolt went ok but there was an explosion on the second.Both got blown into the woods along with the cover.

 

[36 Coupe]

3 carpenters were working on a sea going barge about 25 miles from here.When they had to go down into the bilges, one said they should get the local Fire Dept to ventilate it first.He stayed topside handing down tools. When he didnt hear any noise from them he called the fire dept.Fire man went in with an air pak and found them dead.I know the carpenter that was there.Ive have been jumped on for being negative on this forum because I am critical when stupid things are posted.I spent 35 years on our fire dept all volunteer.Had some close calls.

 

[brokenot]

It seems if the high efficiency furnace intake and vent pipes are within 3 ft of the central ac motor/compressor and both units are running at the same time and both malfunction at the same time (furnace burps and sends out unburned gas and ac unit shorts out and causes a spark) then you will have an explosion.

Yeah, I'd say that's extremely unlikely....to the point of being impossible to duplicate even if you tried. You've got the furnace inlet gas pressure at something like 11"WC being fed from a 1/2" or so gas line, and if the furnace doesn't light, that amount of gas is expelled via a 2" or 3" pvc line to the home's exterior. By the time it exits and mixes with the ambient air, there's no way a spark from anything 3 feet away could ignite it. Keep in mind that it's not just gas exiting the vent line, air is also being fed via the furnace's combustion blower. Not only that, but you don't have a 1/2" line-fed "solid stream" of gas, you have the amount of gas that is able to pass through the furnace's burner orifices at that line pressure.

I'm a mechanic at a rental business, and in addition to the normal mechanic stuff, I also repair jobsite natural gas and propane heaters. The ignition source, (whether it's a hot-surface igniter or a spark igniter), needs to be in close proximity to the burner outlet in order for ignition to occur. Now if you can imagine the variety of other ignition sources available on a typical construction site, you can see where I'm going with this. Welders, torches, power tools, etc.

In order to light off gas, (that's not contained in some vessel, but rather just floating about in the atmosphere), you need a great enough concentration, and that wouldn't ever occur in the scenario the OP brought up. I'm *kind of* tempted to build a rig and prove it, but it would go like a typical episode of "Mythbusters". I wouldn't be able to get it to work, so I'd have to grossly skew some components or parameters to make it work. Supplying normal furnace gas pressure fed through a normally-sized furnace gas line with orifices, then upsized on to a normally sized pvc vent line, (which is also being fed air with a typical furnace fan inducer blower), which then leads outdoors and trying to light it with an errant line-voltage spark some 3 feet away....well....it ain't gonna happen.

Whenever I'm out working on one of the heaters, people often get nervous and scatter when they get a whiff of gas because they think an explosion is about to occur, but it never does.

And jobsite temporary heat, (being fed with jobsite temporary power as well), is more dangerous by a factor of 100 than what Mr. Holmes is proposing here. He might be a swell guy with good intentions, but he obviously hasn't worked with gas all that much.

:wink:

 

[John A.]

Guys, IMO, It seems to me that the point of Holmes show is to educate us All to local problems and codes and how things run a muck! Yes there are unscrupulous builders and Home repair people who either do not know proper wiring, plumbing, building principals or just do not care. They take advantage of people who are just trying to get there home in order where it isn't a fire hazard or why does a certain room stay cold all the time, or the new hard wood floor keeps buckling As I see it Problems that should not be there. Or why didn't the Home Inspection revile the problem before I bought it.
Also as another below said this in in Canada, Northern US, or As I see it Farr North, some things are not applicable to Texas. Though most of the principals are. Depending on your situation.
I too am looking to build in the next year or so, I am checking and double checking all aspects and things. Looking for what safeguards I can to ensure a home that will not have problems in the future. My thoughts!
Later,
John A.

 

[John Harmon]

That doesnt sound right.If that job was performed in the USA a Gov.control called OSHA requires a full perspective of the safety and exit strategy plus a confined space permit be filed and approved for entry into any possible life threatening environment of a job which Employees are performing the work,and this one sure fit that. OSHA is serious about this as the employees should be.

 

[old1850d]

many times when installing the new furnace it is very hard to get the vent pipes 3 feet away from the a/c and almost impossible to get them far enough away from windows and doors per the manufactures specs

 

[TomH in PA]

Have your wife watch the <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ppSVBDPs_I">Mythbusters</a> trying to cause a gas explosion. This is just the preview, they couldn't get that muzzle flash to cause the room to explode in the actual show

 

[brokenot]

Guys, IMO, It seems to me that the point of Holmes show is to educate us

Education is fine, as long as exaggeration doesn't come into play. What happens when someone tells you something that you find out later is exaggerated?

Do you from-that-point-on regard their commentary differently?

The sad truth is that in order for any of these "reality-type" shows to elbow their way into a time slot in the TV schedule, things need to be said or done in order to make the show provocative or interesting enough to grab enough viewers.

If reality in and of itself [i:4e47894fcd]isn't[/i:4e47894fcd] provocative or interesting enough on its own merit, then it ends up on the cutting room floor and is replaced with something else.

So there you go.

 

[C.R.]

Im kind of tired of all the"reality" shows they are alot of horse crap the fake deadlines and unnessicary drama,and screaming and dumb things people do if these people are as dumb as they look well thats why we give out Darwin awards

 

[hayray]

One point to remember, he is always at problem homes that were done incorrectly. His first show was coming in to fix houses that rip-off artist worked on and the home owners were in dire straits, this is not normal practice. I watch the show with my girlfriend and we like it.

 

[Dieselbreath]

(quoted from post at 15:25:08 02/26/11) That doesnt sound right.If that job was performed in the USA a Gov.control called OSHA requires a full perspective of the safety and exit strategy plus a confined space permit be filed and approved for entry into any possible life threatening environment of a job which Employees are performing the work,and this one sure fit that. OSHA is serious about this as the employees should be.

Tell that to my dead nephew who died trying to rescue his co-worker {who also died) who was overcome with fumes while down working in a sewer. This happened last year in Sioux City, Iowa.
Osha may have rules but some employers ignore them.

 

[JMS/.MN]

She should worry more about the inefficiency of running the furnace and the A/C at the same time. Way too much drama on too many shows.

 

[bruster]

Myself.........
I'd rather see Holmes getting in the last contractors face, about the work done (or NOT done)and hear later if some legal recourse was taken by the home owner to get their money back!

 

[rossow (mn)]

I enjoy both Holmes Inspection and Holmes on Homes, but it's a little frustrating when his solution to pretty much every issue is, "Tear it out and start over!" Sometimes it's just not practical to gut everything to the sheathing. He seems particularly obsessive about vapor barriers, once noting that a single pinhole in the barrier would let in a cup of moisture a year. Perhaps. But what drywall crew has ever, ever, done such a perfect job that there weren't misplaced nails/screws that punctured the vapor barrier? And insulation that has a Kraft paper barrier has been used for years, yet it's surely much looser than a pinhole but still seems to work. Also, Holmes has a crew of thousands to do what I almost always have to do singlehandedly in my own home. I'm just jealous, I suppose. I do wish he'd lose the cute little ear stud; of that I'm not jealous.

 

[36 Coupe]

This was many years ago,probably before OHSA started counting the sheets of toilet paper in toilets.A woodsman I knew dropped a tree on himself .The boss of the crew jumped off the skidder and tried to free the pinned woods man.He left the blade up on the skidder.OHSA fined him several thousand dollars.Government is a parasite plain and simple.

 

[john in la]

Mythbusters
Now there is a silly show if I ever seen one.

Just because you can not duplicate something does not mean it is untrue or a myth.

Some would say pouring gasoline into a plastic bucket is not a problem. Heck I have done it a thousand times and nothing happened.
So to say gasoline can catch on fire from merely pouring it into a plastic bucket must be a myth.
Tell that to a friend of mine that has server burns on his arms from doing just this.

 

[oliver power]

How many here realize Holmes is not a licensed home inspector. Holmes is simply doing his own personal inspection of the project at hand. Any good contractor needs to look the project over. He goes through the houses talking code, code, code. An actual licensed home inspector is trained NOT to use the word "code" when doing a home inspection. A licensed home inspector is trained to use the word safty, in place of the word code. Codes are rules followed during the construction of a building. Once the building has been completed, and certificate of occupency issued, it then becomes a home. From that point on, it is a safty inspection. NOTE: some renovations need to be brought up to current code. Holmes tears things apart looking for the obvious. He also has his men inspecting/looking things over. A licensed home inspector doesn't tear things apart. A licensed home inspector must do the inspecting himself. He can not have others do it for them. Should a licensed home inspector also be a contractor, He has to choose to do the inspection, or the construction. He can not do both on the same home. Scare tactics: A licensed home inspector is often accused of going overboard, picking the place apart. Fact is, they are trained to do so. If something is not mentioned, it can legally come back to bite the licensed home inspector. A licensed home inspector needs to write in his report what he can, and can not see. I have to say; Holmes inspecting Holmes is a clever title. With his experiense, he would make a good "Home inspector".

 

[Dave_Id]

How often are you using your furnace at the same time as your air conditioner?

 

[brokenot]

Mythbusters
Now there is a silly show if I ever seen one.

Just because you can not duplicate something does not mean it is untrue or a myth.

FWIW, my reference to Mythbusters had nothing to do with their techniques or credibility. I was simply illustrating that when they [i:ab6406a5c8]can't[/i:ab6406a5c8] duplicate a myth, they ramp things up/change the parameters/etc. in order to obtain whatever result the given story happens to be about.

Jamie and Adam wouldn't be able to ignite the amount of un-burned gas from a vent pipe that we're talking about here, and Mr. Holmes wouldn't be able to either.

Never.

Now if they exhausted the vent pipe [i:ab6406a5c8]right into[/i:ab6406a5c8] the A/C motor, and then [i:ab6406a5c8]removed[/i:ab6406a5c8] the burner orifices, and perhaps [i:ab6406a5c8]increased[/i:ab6406a5c8] the gas pressure and volume, and then [i:ab6406a5c8]decreased[/i:ab6406a5c8] the inducer blower's volume, well then yeah....it could happen.

But even then, would there be an explosion? Would anything blow up? Nope. I'm envisioning the same kind of *whooomph* my wife gets from the gas grill when she turns the gas on with the lid closed and doesn't get a spark from the igniter until she pushes the button half a dozen times.

With orifices intact, and gas pressure not mucked about with, here's roughly what you'd get:

(Absolutely no disrespect to the departed intended....just an example folks)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pz6fTCi1NBQ

 

[TomH in PA]

Yea, the show is entertainment, not science. But there is a lot of entertainment value in watching them blow stuff up when proving something is "feasible".

 

[Inno]

How many things that we do in life are done a certain way for safety's sake? It's not that every time you light a smoke while filling up your car with gas it's gonna blow up but it's common sense that you should not do that.
How much redundancy is built into everything to protect the stupid? Lots!

The example given does seem like extreme overkill because there are systems in place in that heating/cooling system which pretty much eliminate any chance of the A/C firing up while the heat is on. Most of the code violations shown on H on H are legit reasons to be concerned. He exposes the fact that there are many many rip off artists who call themselves contractors going around, doing a pi$$ poor job and extorting money from homeowners all before the job is even done in many cases.

I too would love to see an episode where he tracks down all the offending contractors. I also agree with others who say that earring has got to go!
Of all the so called "reality" TV shows out there, H on H is one of the better ones IMO.

 

[Bob - MI]

So you are upset at a tv show because you could potentially have a code violation? Do the simple and safe thing, check the local code and see if your unit is properly installed.

If within code, remind the wife that Holmes would be OK with that. Codes are different in Canada as well as across the US but codes generally exist to keep us all safe.

I watch HOH religously and enjoy the show because it's just about the only one left anymore where you can learn the right way to do DIY projects. Yes, there's grandstanding and ego-centric rants but the way he exposes shoddy contractors serves to protect us all.

Are you sure that the issue on that show wasn't the potential for the AC fan to disrupt the exhaust/intake flows if it was too close? I saw one that he made that point on.

 

[brokenot]

Yes, there's grandstanding and ego-centric rants but the way he exposes shoddy contractors serves to protect us all.

That's *kind of* why I have a problem with the approach he takes. Even if WE'RE all aware that some of what's shown is grandstanding and ego-centric ranting, could his delivery "style" affect how the information he conveys is viewed by someone who just tuned in?

If he exaggerates the seriousness of this situation, who's to say he isn't going to exaggerate the seriousness of another situation?

Despite the "lessons" reality TV has taught us, it IS entirely possible to convey accurate information...supported by facts....and leave it at that.

Any statements including *artificial emphasis* via buzz-words like "explode" can be taken more than one way.

And this is one of those ways:

:wink:

 

[Goose]

That's why he doesn't charge for doing his work. If he charged, he'd have to be licensed.

 

[Inno]

(quoted from post at 19:45:23 02/28/11)
I watch HOH religously and enjoy the show because it's just about the only one left anymore where you can learn the right way to do DIY projects. Yes, there's grandstanding and ego-centric rants but the way he exposes shoddy contractors serves to protect us all.

That is a good point, I have seen MANY DIY shows in which I KNOW they are doing things either the wrong way or in an unsafe manner (lack of safety equipment etc.) or simply creating a bad situation. I don't think anyone can argue that Mike Holmes does things the right way. I would definitely not question any home that he has built or renovated. Not only does he have a problem with shoddy work, he also has a problem with "minimum code" in that if a home is built to minimum code, it's not necessarily all that well built.

 

[brokenot]

Not only does he have a problem with shoddy work, he also has a problem with "minimum code"

Really?

The OP says his wife was concerned about a furnace vent that was too close to an A/C unit. If it [i:0c9772048d]wasn't[/i:0c9772048d] built to code, yes....that's an issue.

But....do you want her, (or anyone else), to spend time fretting or worrying if she went outside to check the vent and found out it is indeed built to code, but it's built to so-called "minimum code"?

"Honey, I just watched Mike's show and then did a walk-around. Seems we have a couple of things that are *minimum code*. Should we tear everything out and start over?"

Does he actually say things like that with a straight face? If he puts the furnace vent on the opposite side of the house does he call it "maximum code"?

I "get" the point he's trying to make. But if he's implying, (or just outright saying), things that are going to get people worried or upset [i:0c9772048d]over nothing[/i:0c9772048d], his technique requires addressing.

Leave the drama at the door.

 

[Anonymous-0]

heres my 2 cents. Holmes understands building codes and structure so he can go into a place and see everything thats a little off or what not and have pros fix it. My problem is this.
The people that have him coming into their house (im talking about holmes on homes) have always hired an ex brother in law and then got screwed and they are so greatful when Mike fixes everything up, but you know those people could have called the best construction company in their town and they would have had subcontractors come in and do everything Holmes did but the problem is they didnt want to pay for it so the went with cheapest bid fly by night.

 

[Dusty MI]

So If someone hires me to put in a new furnace, and when
the job is complete and pasted by the inspector. Is/can the
home owner refuse to pay me or sue me because I only put
it in to minimum code?


Dusty

 

[JML755]

(quoted from post at 20:45:23 02/28/11) .....Codes are different in Canada as well as across the US but codes generally exist to keep us all safe.

That is one of the interesting things about "codes". Do the laws of physics change at the US/Canadian border? Are they different in California than in Michigan? If the idea of "codes" is safety, wouldn't they be universal? It'd be interesting to have someone who knows both US and Canadian codes post some differences.

I am not a licensed *anything* but I am a pretty good handyman that has built homes/additions/renovations, etc. And I could violate a "code" every project and still have it be "safe" and well built. On several inspections (addition & basement finishing), I have been dinged for minor, minor things that were "not to code" but meant nothing to the safety and reliability of the finished project. And years ago I remember an argument between an electrician and inspector with a code book in hand on an interpretation of the "code" where both of them seemed right. (For the life of me, I can't remember what the issue was. LOL) I am not advocating to ignore building codes, just saying that they sometimes seem silly. The original post about the furnace vent & A/C is a good example, IMO.