A new man comes on the job; before he even knows the job he starts whining that he doesn"t get treated like the oldtimers. He becomes a union member and Union (actually Association) tells boss "treat him like the oldtimers." Boss busts him for constantly not following standard procedures. Union cries "Retribution!" Now we get to spend the next 2 days being individually interviewed to see who is at fault. Come on people, we"ve got a job to do! That alone is something to be thankful for! It"s time for men to "man up" and do the job they were hired for or "shut up" and move on! Thanks, I"m done now.
A new man comes on the job. He isn't as experienced and is making less than the oldtimers who have been there for a while. Boss starts giving work that the oldtimer used to do to the new guy. New guy does the work cheaper. All of a sudden boss tells oldtimer, "Hey we don't need you full time anymore since new guy is doing your old job." Old timer can't afford to take a pay cut but knows that he is not likely to find a different job either. Old timer wishes he had some type of labor representation that would prevent boss from doing this.
Just saying...
Russ from MN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bemidji MN
Amen!
Fullers Farmalls
Member
Worked with the unions this past summer. They are good and they are bad. I'll leave it at that.
Mike in SD
New User
Ryan nailed it. Unions also help non-union workers in many ways, benefits, setting of wages.
old
Well-known Member
- Location
- Camdenton Missouri
At one times unions where good but now days they have priced job out of the U.S.A. and that in turn is bad. When a guy can get a walk in union job for say putting lug nuts on a car and he gets $25 an hour to do a job a well trained monkey can do then yes it is time unions go away
New hires most always go through a probation period before they are allowed to join the union. If this guy is a poor worker, it's the company's fault for keeping him. They could have gotten rid of him when he was on probation, before he became union. Sometimes companies do this on purpose. Creates hard feelings between union brothers, divide and conquer so to speak. Unions are like guns, a very effective tool if used correctly. It's the people that give them a bad name.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
I guess I don't know the difference between a union and an "association".
What you don't say is whether you are a member of this union. If you are, then I'd say your beef is with your union, since they brought in someone unqualified, making everyone else look bad.
Now if it happens you're not a union member, then you made a decision to be non-union in a union shop. You had to know up front that would be a tough row to hoe.
What you don't say is whether you are a member of this union. If you are, then I'd say your beef is with your union, since they brought in someone unqualified, making everyone else look bad.
Now if it happens you're not a union member, then you made a decision to be non-union in a union shop. You had to know up front that would be a tough row to hoe.
Billy Shafer
Well-known Member
How about a union worker getting 25.00 an hour. To watch machine punch out washers. No skills required. Just keep the hopper full. Saw that one time at a defense plant.
dr sportster
Well-known Member
Shouldn't this be titled -- OT Rant Associations-- since it does not involve unions but something else. Or your just stirring the pot up ?
Lamar Fudd
Member
An 'association' is a company union. The company sets the rules and the workers 'think' they have some protection, but it's just not so. The association benefits the company by creating the illusion that their employees are represented, but it's more a case of the fox watching the henhouse. An added advantage for the company is they can 'weed out' so-called troublemakers that go to the association with every grievance imaginable. A good, real union won't defend a lazy slothful employee; why would they? Plenty of job applications on file and there are sure to be some excellent ones there. No real union that I know of wants a company to fail; we are all competetive with each other. Think about it; that's what makes this Country great! We compete (Chevy Vs. Ford) but when the chips are down (Japan attacks) we are all one!.
Im not gonna start a feud by saying anything good or bad about Unions, they like many organizations have good and bad points.
However, I will say they have pretty much become in the pocket of the nnalert party, they donate to them and get political paybacks in return, its simple and NOT rocket science, follow the money, donations, kickbacks and favors, and its all right there and obvious.
Again, Im NOT saying good or bad, just pointing out the obvious and you can take or leave n do with that as yall please...
Best wishes n God Bless
Ol John T and all
However, I will say they have pretty much become in the pocket of the nnalert party, they donate to them and get political paybacks in return, its simple and NOT rocket science, follow the money, donations, kickbacks and favors, and its all right there and obvious.
Again, Im NOT saying good or bad, just pointing out the obvious and you can take or leave n do with that as yall please...
Best wishes n God Bless
Ol John T and all
At one time I worked in a union shop and was on the barganing committee once, We studied a lot of contracts and in every one they had an article stating that the company owned the company and would run it the way they seen fit,(not the exact words but thats the meaning) We had a 90 day period where the new hires was tested, And the newbies always hired in at the bottom of the pay scale. They were treated like newbies. I suppose some companys did it different but thats the way it was done in this shop
BigMarv1085
Member
I don"t work for a union company but everyone else in my profession is union. At times I wish we had one just for the fact that there are pretty cut and dry rules about personel issues. But as Old stated they were needed at one time.
Or the new guy does the same job cheaper, so the boss fires the old guy (who for some reason hasn't planned his life very well and can't withstand even a small pay cut) and hires two more young guys. Now the boss is getting 50% more work accomplished for the same cost. This allows him to reinvest in his business and hire even more young guys, expanding his business even more. Unfortunately his business is in California, and he eventually employs 50 people, which means he reached the threshhold at which a whole bunch of business-crushing regulations apply to his business, and he decides to move the business to Arizona. Most of his employees don't want to move, so they all lose their jobs.
dr sportster
Well-known Member
If the unions were in the pocket of the democratic party then the nnalert would be giving money to the unions. Building trades unions support whomever is going to go forth with new projects that create jobs wether the politician is a nnalert or nnalert is not really important to them.Smart [or weasly] nnalert often trick unions in to thinking a project will go forth once they are elected and this is generally the case. nnalert NJ governor Christie Whitman got support of highway construction laborers saying she would build a tunnel to Atlantic City .Didn't happen once she got in.Trade unions will support any nnalert that supports new construction. If nnalert can't get labor support in general it is because they are not labor friendly and not because the nnalert have unions in thier pocket. Have democratic politicians learned to play the unions?-of course . In a couple of speeches they can gain a large block of votes [ at least in theory]. There are many union members who will still tow the line of the repulicans if they happen to be conservative , or an NRA member etc. Federal money being thrown at construction projects only makes one or two trades work ;highway laborers and ironworkers[ if the highway needs a bridge]. Anyway unions will support those who support them regardless of political party.
rustyfarmall
Well-known Member
I used to work at a factory that was non-union, but the factory at the corporate headquarters was very strong union. The union at that factory became more and more demanding, and they were not willing to negotiate, so that strong union factory was just flat shut down and the product they were making got moved to several other branches. All of those branches are non-union. The corporation never blinked an eye, production never suffered, and all customers were happy. Most of the customers never even knew anything had happened.
Unions? Didn't do much good for the workers at that particular factory.
I've been saying for years the two things that killed America were unions and entitlements, which are in some ways the same thing.
If pay-for-performance were still the norm productivity would skyrocket, politicians would actually be forced to get something accomplished, unemployment would drop, and the US could return to it's once great state.....
If pay-for-performance were still the norm productivity would skyrocket, politicians would actually be forced to get something accomplished, unemployment would drop, and the US could return to it's once great state.....
old
Well-known Member
- Location
- Camdenton Missouri
Yep and they wonder why the jobs are going out of the country to places where you can hire some one to do the same job for 1/4 of the $$$ if not 1/10
rustyfarmall
Well-known Member
You just said a mouthful right there, and it is the truth!!!
I kind of disagree with old. The main reason our companies are going overseas, mainly China, is big business greed. Funny these companies were making great prfits untik China cheap labor showed up. All of a sudden the working class gets blamed because. I am a retired union member and if it wouldn't have been for a union I would not have gotten it. I agree some of these wages have gotten way out of line but it can't all be blamed on a union. If this young worker had to toe the line that's tough. If you started a new union job(major unions) you had a trial period when you started. In fact most unions have an apprentice ship now. Good deal I think.
I totally agree that unions, like many associations, are out of control and/or out of bounds in many cases. But let's look at the roots of unions. If I recall my history, it was the steel and railroad tycoons that grossly abused workers, under paid them, fired them for no reason just because they had the power to do so.
My point is this, it was greedy men with no moral compass that actully created the need for unions.
When I was growing up, adults many times blamed everything on kids and everyone else, but seldom took responsibilty.
Today we see state cops having "fun" on the hood of a car. What the heck? How can he legally enforce ANY law when he is not a moral person? I am not saying that "fun" on a car hood is illegal, but what he did shows that his moral compass is not in line with what we expect from a person in law enforcement. He cannot be trusted therefore should NEVER be allowed to enforce the law.
Some folks think these kinds of acts are "first". Nope, sorry to burst your bubble. The only thing has changed is that we now have technology to capture what many people have lied about and gotten by with for a very long time.
In a town near where I grew up, the sheriff got kick backs from the moonshiners, who were related to him by marriage. To keep the proper "perception", they would capture an outsider making moonshine every so often. The write up in the local paper made the sheriff appear to be all over these illegal operations. All of this came out after the shriff passed away, no cameras and technology back then to catch them in the act.
My point is this, it was greedy men with no moral compass that actully created the need for unions.
When I was growing up, adults many times blamed everything on kids and everyone else, but seldom took responsibilty.
Today we see state cops having "fun" on the hood of a car. What the heck? How can he legally enforce ANY law when he is not a moral person? I am not saying that "fun" on a car hood is illegal, but what he did shows that his moral compass is not in line with what we expect from a person in law enforcement. He cannot be trusted therefore should NEVER be allowed to enforce the law.
Some folks think these kinds of acts are "first". Nope, sorry to burst your bubble. The only thing has changed is that we now have technology to capture what many people have lied about and gotten by with for a very long time.
In a town near where I grew up, the sheriff got kick backs from the moonshiners, who were related to him by marriage. To keep the proper "perception", they would capture an outsider making moonshine every so often. The write up in the local paper made the sheriff appear to be all over these illegal operations. All of this came out after the shriff passed away, no cameras and technology back then to catch them in the act.
Welding man
Well-known Member
- Location
- West Virginia
Unions are losing a lot of power. My wife belongs to UAW. Was laid off for 3 years and just got recalled. Had to take a 6 dollar on the hour cut and now has to pay a percentage of insurance and lost her retirement benefits. Company said take it or leave it, we will ship the work to Mexico. They took it and the company recalled 700 people. 200 couldn't pass the drug test.Times have changed.
"....is big business greed."
Greed = excessive or reprehensible acquisitiveness.
acquisitiveness = acquiring & possessing.
Corporations are very mis-understood by the majority. The corporation itself neither acquires or possesses....rather it operates in order make a profit for it's owners (the stockholders). Stockholders invest in the corporation in order to make a profit on such investment & if the corporation fails to show the investor such profit, the investor will invest his/her money elsewhere, where such profit is realizable. Greed indeed! The return on stocks is typically under 10% and typical corporate return on investment is well under 15%. Greed indeed!
Unions are dead as long as there is free trade. Good, bad, indifferent, unions cannot compete in a world economy where engineers work for 10,000 a year and sleep with 10 familys in an apartment. All software work as be done in India for years and done cheaper. Chinese workers work for $2.5 per hour and think they are rich. The american way of life will continue to decline under free trade for all. Even agriculture is starting to decline and more and more overseas food finds its way into american markets. I challenge each and everyone of you to watch our markets continue to errod.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
When I hired in to a UAW plant in 2000, we had a 60-day probationary period. DURING that probationary period, we were NOT union members. We could have a union rep attend any disciplinary action or hearing, but we did NOT enjoy full "protection" of the union. In fact, during the porbationary period, our supervisors would TRY to get us to wash out, to quit or to commit acts that would cause us to get fired. WHY?? Because they wanted the BEST workforce they could get!
AFTER our probationary period, we became union members, and had all the rights of other union members. BUT...at that point, having low seniority, it was our fellow union members, and not the supervisors, who kept us "in our place." Apparently the more senior members of the union are too passive toward the less senior workers at your workplace; otherwise, the problem you describe never would've happened, IMHO.
AFTER our probationary period, we became union members, and had all the rights of other union members. BUT...at that point, having low seniority, it was our fellow union members, and not the supervisors, who kept us "in our place." Apparently the more senior members of the union are too passive toward the less senior workers at your workplace; otherwise, the problem you describe never would've happened, IMHO.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
hello all,I am a proud union member who believes and supports the unions.I believe that if not for unions,nobody in this country but the rich would be making more than minimum wage. The organized labor movement was about better wages and better working conditions,without this we wouldn"t have the safety laws of today,that at times may seem crazy,they protect the workers,which puts money and food on the table.It is anybody"s choice to be "union" or not,i have worked both and wouldn"t trade my union card for anything.I have better pension and healthcare than most non union people ever will have.The unions help set certian wages around the country,such as building trades and factory wages.Myself i can live better at union set wages than i can non-union wages.If this country want"s to move forward we should be working together and get things and people working,if not we will be back to the 20"s and 30"s agian.I think someone should start where jimmy hoffa left off and this country would get back on track!?If the unions go completly away,we will be no different than russia or germany.
msk, Parts of your perception I must disagree with.
For a trash collector and other blue collar workers to make between $50,000 and $100,00 simply because of union pressure, whereas the going rates for those jobs are far lower, displays the flaws in the way the union goes about it.
In all fairness, when you want to find the root of a problem, follow the money trail. The union leaders make more as they negotiate more for the members. With greed woven in there, no ceiling is in place because greedy people are literally insatiable when it comers to money.
As in my first post, I agree that unions were started for the right reasons, and there are still some that are there for the right reasons. But driving incomes and retirement packages way out of scale is not good for anyone but the greedy recipients, it screws everyone else. Same goes with forcing employers to retain or even promote employees that cannot or will not produce SIMPLY because they pay their union dues is insane! That is akin to paying a hit man to do your dirty work.
For a trash collector and other blue collar workers to make between $50,000 and $100,00 simply because of union pressure, whereas the going rates for those jobs are far lower, displays the flaws in the way the union goes about it.
In all fairness, when you want to find the root of a problem, follow the money trail. The union leaders make more as they negotiate more for the members. With greed woven in there, no ceiling is in place because greedy people are literally insatiable when it comers to money.
As in my first post, I agree that unions were started for the right reasons, and there are still some that are there for the right reasons. But driving incomes and retirement packages way out of scale is not good for anyone but the greedy recipients, it screws everyone else. Same goes with forcing employers to retain or even promote employees that cannot or will not produce SIMPLY because they pay their union dues is insane! That is akin to paying a hit man to do your dirty work.
Casey in Ky
Member
My dad was a proud IBEW and UMWA member for over 30 years. I worked several non union jobs before going to work for a telecom company that is represented by the CWA. I've been with this company for well over 11 years now. I not only consider myself a proud member, but I'm a job steward as well.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and nothing I can or could say here would change anyones mind anyways, but I will say that with all my years experience with working a union shop, the one thing that everything is based on, is senority. The "new guy" does not make as much money, get as much vacation, is the first to get laid off, and last considered for advancement. I'm not buying that this "union" stood up for the new guy and said treat him like the old timers, unless of course we're talking about basic issues. If I'm an oldtimer that has dedicated myself to this job and company for x number of years and some new guy comes in cuts line, there's going to be a BIG problem.
If the guy is a whack off and can't/doesn't do the job, sets on his a** and expects the union to protect his job while he doesn't do the work, then do us all a favor and fire him now so that he doesn't become an oldtimer with all the protection and perks that come from working hard to keep a job. And just because its a union shop doesn't mean that somebody can't be fired. You still have a job to do and the company is not obligated to give you anything other than whats been nargain for. If I company agrees in a contract to not be able to fire people for not doing their job, then the issue is not with the union or the contract, it's with the idiotic management team that agreed to that contract.
Contrary to what us union guys are portrayed as, most of us work hard, are proud of the work we do, want to do it right, and are dedicated to what we do.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and nothing I can or could say here would change anyones mind anyways, but I will say that with all my years experience with working a union shop, the one thing that everything is based on, is senority. The "new guy" does not make as much money, get as much vacation, is the first to get laid off, and last considered for advancement. I'm not buying that this "union" stood up for the new guy and said treat him like the old timers, unless of course we're talking about basic issues. If I'm an oldtimer that has dedicated myself to this job and company for x number of years and some new guy comes in cuts line, there's going to be a BIG problem.
If the guy is a whack off and can't/doesn't do the job, sets on his a** and expects the union to protect his job while he doesn't do the work, then do us all a favor and fire him now so that he doesn't become an oldtimer with all the protection and perks that come from working hard to keep a job. And just because its a union shop doesn't mean that somebody can't be fired. You still have a job to do and the company is not obligated to give you anything other than whats been nargain for. If I company agrees in a contract to not be able to fire people for not doing their job, then the issue is not with the union or the contract, it's with the idiotic management team that agreed to that contract.
Contrary to what us union guys are portrayed as, most of us work hard, are proud of the work we do, want to do it right, and are dedicated to what we do.
Wonder what percentage of the manufacturing jobs in this country went overseas because of the federal government's tax incentives to do so? In other words our own government paid corporation to move off shore, now if that isn't shooting yourself in the foot I'd like to know what is?!!!!!!!!!!!!! :x
> the one thing that everything is based on, is senority
As you said, not going to change anyone's mind, and don't want to, and everyone has their point of view.
Mine is perhaps: The only thing worse than being in a union environment would be to live in a country with no possibility of having a union.... That may go over some people's heads, and may make sense to others. A very abundant friend of mine shares that viewpoint, he is _so_ happy his workplace has rejected unions to this point, tho he would fear an ecconomy where unions were outlawed....
My sister was a big union supporter, was local office holder, etc. when push came to shove, they did nothing to help her when she needed it, they got involved in other cases that had no merrit but were the 'right people', sort of what you hear anti-union people complain about. To me it always seems like the union is just another hand in your pocket, there to help lazy people and ignore good hard working people.... But just my experiences, which are limited. As a self-employed person, it is difficult to understand the union world at all, it only seems to slow things down and make them cost more which is difficult to understand why I would want that.
Anyhow, as to the tiny quote I made of yours; That bothers me in ways. It holds down good people with good ideas & ethics, and protects worthless slobs. At times, in some ways in some cases. Certainly no comment on you personally! But - think it would be nice if we could reward good workers, and push out poor workers. Rather than just reward a calender for time served, good or bad. That quote is kinda what is wrong with th union world.....
A way too short summery of a very complex issue, again as you say not here to change anyone... Just voice my view of things, take or leave, nothing more to it.
--->Paul
As you said, not going to change anyone's mind, and don't want to, and everyone has their point of view.
Mine is perhaps: The only thing worse than being in a union environment would be to live in a country with no possibility of having a union.... That may go over some people's heads, and may make sense to others. A very abundant friend of mine shares that viewpoint, he is _so_ happy his workplace has rejected unions to this point, tho he would fear an ecconomy where unions were outlawed....
My sister was a big union supporter, was local office holder, etc. when push came to shove, they did nothing to help her when she needed it, they got involved in other cases that had no merrit but were the 'right people', sort of what you hear anti-union people complain about. To me it always seems like the union is just another hand in your pocket, there to help lazy people and ignore good hard working people.... But just my experiences, which are limited. As a self-employed person, it is difficult to understand the union world at all, it only seems to slow things down and make them cost more which is difficult to understand why I would want that.
Anyhow, as to the tiny quote I made of yours; That bothers me in ways. It holds down good people with good ideas & ethics, and protects worthless slobs. At times, in some ways in some cases. Certainly no comment on you personally! But - think it would be nice if we could reward good workers, and push out poor workers. Rather than just reward a calender for time served, good or bad. That quote is kinda what is wrong with th union world.....
A way too short summery of a very complex issue, again as you say not here to change anyone... Just voice my view of things, take or leave, nothing more to it.
--->Paul
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I disliked unions for much of my life.
That being said I am in employee benefits and over the last 12-15 years I have seen a trend of the top/key people do well in co's and the regular employees just getting by.
I have seen health and other benefits eliminated for most of the company personal but kept on and actually improved for the top key people.
I can see unions coming back especially when China/India get's into the hi-tech and white collar jobs which is coming.The blue collar manufacturing job losses to these countries is only a start.
We are on a race towards the bottom so my view of unions have changed to a positive. Somebody needs to stand up for the average worker.
That being said I am in employee benefits and over the last 12-15 years I have seen a trend of the top/key people do well in co's and the regular employees just getting by.
I have seen health and other benefits eliminated for most of the company personal but kept on and actually improved for the top key people.
I can see unions coming back especially when China/India get's into the hi-tech and white collar jobs which is coming.The blue collar manufacturing job losses to these countries is only a start.
We are on a race towards the bottom so my view of unions have changed to a positive. Somebody needs to stand up for the average worker.
But they are no longer standing up for the employees as originally established. They are simply another money and power machine. They will help put the few American companies left out of business. Not by improving employee conditions, but by sucking every penny they can so that they can line their pockets.
Unions have not been about the employees for many years. The employees are simply the pawns they use to win the chess game.
Unions have not been about the employees for many years. The employees are simply the pawns they use to win the chess game.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
How well did that work out for the workers in the robber baron days?? Employees worked until they literally died on the job. All they got in return was 6 day, 16 hour workdays and company script on overpriced goods at the company store.
Unions and workplace rules and protection are needed for the workers now more than ever.
Unions and workplace rules and protection are needed for the workers now more than ever.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
hello agian,oh yes,there agian is another benefit of a union. Had it not been for organized labor we ALL would be working 70 hr weeks and no extra pay. Unions fought hard for a 40 hr work week and usually overtime after 40.But if the people want to get rid of unions,we'll be working 60-70hr weeks,no benefits,no safety laws,no WEEKENDS off,no nothing,all for $8/hr! what a world to live in then.If you have never been west,go to a right to work state and look around that is what life without unions will resemble.As the union saying goes "UNITED WE BARGIAN DIVIDED WE BEG",the course this country is on will not benefit anyone without unions to stand-up for the working person.Eveyone on this site is a working person and just a number to corporate ceo's,we only help ourselves wether union or not,we need for the fortune 500's to pay there share of taxes and bring back the JOBS. CHINA and JAPAN and MEXICO will be fine without our jobs it's time to get the USA back to the USA!!!!!!!!!
.......and go to Detroit to see life with them!
. I don't know why so many want to blame, tear down, regulate, penalize, destroy corporate America. A corporation is a group of people, hired by a board of directors, elected by the stockholders to use our (the stockholders) money to make a profit for us, our 401K funds, retirement plans, money to pay our bills and live better on. Any corporate penalties, taxes, regulatory costs are passed directly to you & me. A corporation pays NO taxes, they simply collect them for the government and pass them on to you & I (hidden for govt's benefit) in the cost of products & services. Taxing a corporation plays well into the 'big bad big guy' vs 'little guy' class envy senario & aids the government in taxing us more in a way that they hope we will not recognize. More corporate tax results in higher prices to consumer, fewer dollars to share holders, more layed off workers, more jobs overseas (to escape such burdens), an on & on.
Corporations are like the IRS in a way...a giant tax collector(s), but they do not really pay taxes, we do. There should be no such thing as is called a corporate tax. As is we get to pay twice, first we pay what is taken from the corporation as a tax and then we pay again on any profits derived from our investment in the corporation. Stop that & tax the people directly, without the pass-thru, so we can see more clearly how big out tax burden really is. In the end, you see, the corporations are not tax payers & can't be made to be tax payers, no matter the charade....THE CORPORATIONS ARE JUST A TAX COLLECTOR for the government.
Don't be fooled.
Look at import/export tariffs, etc. Next, stop preferential treatment for foreign companies. There is more, but I'm out of time.
People need to stop playing into the deceptive game foisted upon us to push the envy, hate, blame game and open eyes and learn vs listening to the divisive garbage/propaganda.
. I don't know why so many want to blame, tear down, regulate, penalize, destroy corporate America. A corporation is a group of people, hired by a board of directors, elected by the stockholders to use our (the stockholders) money to make a profit for us, our 401K funds, retirement plans, money to pay our bills and live better on. Any corporate penalties, taxes, regulatory costs are passed directly to you & me. A corporation pays NO taxes, they simply collect them for the government and pass them on to you & I (hidden for govt's benefit) in the cost of products & services. Taxing a corporation plays well into the 'big bad big guy' vs 'little guy' class envy senario & aids the government in taxing us more in a way that they hope we will not recognize. More corporate tax results in higher prices to consumer, fewer dollars to share holders, more layed off workers, more jobs overseas (to escape such burdens), an on & on.
Corporations are like the IRS in a way...a giant tax collector(s), but they do not really pay taxes, we do. There should be no such thing as is called a corporate tax. As is we get to pay twice, first we pay what is taken from the corporation as a tax and then we pay again on any profits derived from our investment in the corporation. Stop that & tax the people directly, without the pass-thru, so we can see more clearly how big out tax burden really is. In the end, you see, the corporations are not tax payers & can't be made to be tax payers, no matter the charade....THE CORPORATIONS ARE JUST A TAX COLLECTOR for the government.
Don't be fooled.
Look at import/export tariffs, etc. Next, stop preferential treatment for foreign companies. There is more, but I'm out of time.
People need to stop playing into the deceptive game foisted upon us to push the envy, hate, blame game and open eyes and learn vs listening to the divisive garbage/propaganda.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Sometimes its easy to forget how nice it is to be union (Operators). My company works as a subcontractor for asphalt companies. Sometimes we go to a parking lot job where the nonunion asphalt company guys are making less than half our pay. I remember just how lucky I am. On public works they make the same, but on private their companies don't hesitate to slice their wage by half. Of course there is plenty of seniority at my job as foreman and best assignments and best hours are all controlled by the company. If I aggravated the owner he could starve me through basically no hours, worst jobs, etc. He could flat out fire me anyway. Some people hate unions, but many of them just don't understand our particular industry. And quite frankly its easy to be jealous. Not every Union is like the UAW, and in the construction industry it seems to work.
I would have guessed this thread had already poofed. I was swayed a long time ago. While working for the non-union DOT a long time ago, tried to help get a road open when a union contractor was on the job. Tried to sweep the road up after milling to get traffic going again. There was a greivance filed against us because of that. There were a couple other things that happened to other guys too. Give me a break, trying to be helpful with 10 minutes of sweeping and get the general public (you and me) on their way smoothly and safely and they had a problem with that. Sorry my 2 cents.
dr sportster
Well-known Member
Okay so lets wrap this up and summarize before the whole thing goes poof. So we have concluded all union memebers are commies working on a plot to disgrace America.All corporations are a capitalist plot to enslave the working class and reduce them to mere impovershed scum who can only get the goods at the company store. Before unions were formed work got done after unions everyone was on break all day siiting in an air conditioned lounge.What does Krautheimer think ? Anybody got any new tools to post about ?
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
Well, RockRon, it looks like your troll was successful. Even though, as it turns out, your original post had nothing to do with unions, you got everybody fired up. Doesn't take much.
Now I've never been a member of a union, and I've worked in plenty of places as a salaried employee where I've run afoul of union work rules. Just the same, I have only two things to say to those who are down on them:
1. Triangle Shirtwaist
2. Blair Mountain.
Google it.
Now I've never been a member of a union, and I've worked in plenty of places as a salaried employee where I've run afoul of union work rules. Just the same, I have only two things to say to those who are down on them:
1. Triangle Shirtwaist
2. Blair Mountain.
Google it.
...and the rest of the story. We are all Federal workers. The "company" that this lazy, rude, know-it-all is ripping off is all of us; the taxpayers. I believe in working as hard and as long as it takes to get the job done; just like I have to do on the farm. I expect nothing more than simple recognition for a job well done and take it personally when it"s not. Equal pay for equal work...absolutely. Equal pay for showing up at work...I don"t think so!
Except in this case, the new guy refuses to even try to do the job. And he doesn't have to... as long as he pays his Union dues. He just has to cry that the boss is picking on him every time corrective action is taken and the Union will flex and make threats. Whatever happened to work ethics? Just saying...
willie in mn
Well-known Member
My thoughts on union workers. Some may agree, many won't.
Worked for 3 union shops over the years, 2 non-union.
Seniority does not always rule, it is usually "senior qualified" employee who gets the better or upgraded position.
Seniority eliminates most favoritism. The supervisor's relative or close buddy has to work his way up through the ranks just like everybody else.
In a genuine emergency, rules get temporarily suspended until emergency is cleared. At a major bus company the manager knew that because of home location, I could respond within 10 minutes to a call. In case of a breakdown on road, shop could have a spare unit fired up & ready to go when I got there, be on the way & do the rescue. Or if a driver called in sick at the last minute, I could load the route, have it ready to roll & hand it off to the "next-up-standby" driver when he got there, have him rolling only a few minutes off schedule. Would get paid 4 hours minimum overtime for this, nobody complained.
At one job, I was nominated for shop steward, elected with 1 dissenting ballot, mine. As a union officer it would be my duty to defend any member, but there were a couple of goof-offs that I could not defend with a clean conscience, so declined to accept the position.
enough for tonight.
Willie
Worked for 3 union shops over the years, 2 non-union.
Seniority does not always rule, it is usually "senior qualified" employee who gets the better or upgraded position.
Seniority eliminates most favoritism. The supervisor's relative or close buddy has to work his way up through the ranks just like everybody else.
In a genuine emergency, rules get temporarily suspended until emergency is cleared. At a major bus company the manager knew that because of home location, I could respond within 10 minutes to a call. In case of a breakdown on road, shop could have a spare unit fired up & ready to go when I got there, be on the way & do the rescue. Or if a driver called in sick at the last minute, I could load the route, have it ready to roll & hand it off to the "next-up-standby" driver when he got there, have him rolling only a few minutes off schedule. Would get paid 4 hours minimum overtime for this, nobody complained.
At one job, I was nominated for shop steward, elected with 1 dissenting ballot, mine. As a union officer it would be my duty to defend any member, but there were a couple of goof-offs that I could not defend with a clean conscience, so declined to accept the position.
enough for tonight.
Willie
I feel you are way off base. As a union member any person can be fired and If the company doesn,t do it it is their decision. Also I have had fellow employees that wern,t worth a darn and company didn,t do any thing so the guys could make it hard for him and most would quit or shape up . Remember we only have our labor to sell and it better be good in todays market. Part of the reason people hate unionns is that they have no thoughts of how they operate and try and produce a good product. Don,t blame auto workers blame mangement as this the product they want to sell. I have worked both sides and I know which did me the best Glad I m retired
bobia,
Not as in the dark as you may think, just am not going to post everything to protect certain issues.
I worked 30 years for a company was part union. The part that was not had the best production records, the least amount of issues, the least amount of wasted time on circling the drain.
So, the union pushed their way in to one plant with "insiders". They promised the people all kinds of extra goodies which NEVER came to pass. But it got them in. That plant had excellent production, and was THE place that EVERYONE wanted to work. There was a long waiting list all of the time.
After the union got in, there were gun fights in the parking lot, plant shut downs for bomb threats, etc. It became sorta like many "entitled" people in our country. They think just becasue they reside here, the govenment owes them everything that they are not willing to bust their butts for.
I know this is one exapmle, and there are good union situations as I have stated earlier. But it ain't what it appears to be in some cases, UNLESS, you are the worker that gets over paid for shoddy work and ends up with a golden parachute.
BTW, the company made the decision to shut the plant down and move the work elsewhere. Suddenly, the workers that allowed the union in realized just how great they had it, but it was too late.
Not as in the dark as you may think, just am not going to post everything to protect certain issues.
I worked 30 years for a company was part union. The part that was not had the best production records, the least amount of issues, the least amount of wasted time on circling the drain.
So, the union pushed their way in to one plant with "insiders". They promised the people all kinds of extra goodies which NEVER came to pass. But it got them in. That plant had excellent production, and was THE place that EVERYONE wanted to work. There was a long waiting list all of the time.
After the union got in, there were gun fights in the parking lot, plant shut downs for bomb threats, etc. It became sorta like many "entitled" people in our country. They think just becasue they reside here, the govenment owes them everything that they are not willing to bust their butts for.
I know this is one exapmle, and there are good union situations as I have stated earlier. But it ain't what it appears to be in some cases, UNLESS, you are the worker that gets over paid for shoddy work and ends up with a golden parachute.
BTW, the company made the decision to shut the plant down and move the work elsewhere. Suddenly, the workers that allowed the union in realized just how great they had it, but it was too late.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Not sure what you are upset about. No one was ever forced to join a union. No one was ever forced to work for a company that was unionized. They can't force you to go to that interview or say anything at it. No one was ever forced to buy something that was union made. No union ever told management what to do save perhaps to follow an agreement or law. Do some bosses not follow the disciplinary proceedure in their Memorandum of Understanding, thier contract, with the union, yep it happens all the time. Did the company agree to the terms of the MOU, yep, they bargined them in good faith. Do companies get in trouble for violation the MOU, yep. Is that the unions fault, nope. Should anyone feel bad for the boss or the company that put him in that position, not at all. I guess I am old school but I believe that parties to an agreement or contract should live up to their obligations under that contract.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
NO...Nothing like any threats of physical violence. MAFIA might do things like that, but the union I was in never did.
No, the more senior members "kept us in our place" by setting some performance stadards that rookie welders had to be on their toes to keep up with. In time, we got to be nearly as good as them...but starting out, they'd change settings on our welders when we weren't looking, or fill our gloves with nozzle dip while we were on break, stuff like that to teach us not to leave our gear lying around, and to always re-check our settings when we came back from breaks and lunches.
If the unions were as YOU describe them where YOU work, I believe I'd quit and find a line of work that was less dangerous.
No, the more senior members "kept us in our place" by setting some performance stadards that rookie welders had to be on their toes to keep up with. In time, we got to be nearly as good as them...but starting out, they'd change settings on our welders when we weren't looking, or fill our gloves with nozzle dip while we were on break, stuff like that to teach us not to leave our gear lying around, and to always re-check our settings when we came back from breaks and lunches.
If the unions were as YOU describe them where YOU work, I believe I'd quit and find a line of work that was less dangerous.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
One word...ENRON. Not all corporations and companies are innocent little angels-only as good as the corporate officers...and many of them are rotten to the core. Today many large corporations have zero loyalty to the US excpet when it comes to bailouts or when they want the US military to protect their assets in foreign lands.
Of all the posts on here, JMOR's comments are the most sensible and speak the most truth. He is right about corporations not paying taxes. Corporations today are just the middle man.
As for unions, all I can say is that in my years working at GM and years at automotive suppliers, it is my opinion that the auto companies make a profit in spite of the UAW, not because of them. Even today, the UAW is screaming for more money for their workers (evidently $4,00 to $5,000 bonuses are not good enough for them) while those of us who invested in Chrysler and GM to fund OUR retirement plans lost everything.
Yes, unions had a place in society but the pendulum has swung too far and now needs to swing back. I read of lot of the same old union propaganda on here about "greedy" CEO's, outsourcing jobs due to greed, etc. but there is nothing stopping those million or so UAW (or other union) workers who have lost their jobs from going out and starting their own business if they think they can do a better job at running a company. That is the one thing that unionized workers do well: complain about how poorly their company is run. They will ALWAYS second guess decisions made by their bosses or top management without any of the knowledge that went into making the decision.
As for probationary periods, every new person I knew was a perfect worker during their probationary period. After that, night and day. I remember one time in particular where I was assigned a UAW worker to help me in a warehouse. We were doing fine until one day, she wouldn't do what I asked, would disappear for hours at a time. Found out her probationary period was up. What really griped me was that one day she filed a grievance on me because I HAD PICKED UP A PART FROM A BIN TO LOOK AT IT. That was her job,she said. Well, I would have let her do it if she had been working where she was supposed to be instead of off hiding somewhere. She got 8 hrs pay to settle the grievance. Grievances had nothing to do with egregious working conditions or other serious issues. They were simply a way to get money for a technical violation of a contract. I knew people who were know as "grievance kings/queens" for their expertise in spotting things that they could profit from.
TomH in PA
Well-known Member
"I guess I am old school but I believe that parties to an agreement or contract should live up to their obligations under that contract."
Exactly. Now go back to the top and reread the original post. Boss didn't violate the MOU, goof-off employee filed a grievance because he was told to do his job.
Exactly. Now go back to the top and reread the original post. Boss didn't violate the MOU, goof-off employee filed a grievance because he was told to do his job.
That has to be one of my favorite quotes of the thread thus far. I nearly fell off of my chair giggling as I read it. I have a question though...how many times did you return from breaks and lunches only to find out your gear had been messed with OR your settings had been changed by someone [i:053d918bd1]other than[/i:053d918bd1] the senior members that were looking out for you and trying to teach you a lesson?
Mucking about with other employees' stuff is NON-productivity at its finest. First, they need to mess with your stuff. Then, they need to stand back and watch you discover what they've done. Finally, they come over and explain the "right" way to do things.
That's some good stuff right there.
:wink:
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Well lets see what we know Tom. RockRon is hostel to Unions and even he said it is unknown who is at fault. I am sure he has never read the MOU or the FLSA. We have a boss here that claims the new guy didn't follow proceedure, he may be right. We also an investigation, "2 days on interviews to see who is at fault" per Ron. I am sure Ron didn't see everything. So obviously the facts are in dispute. Without investigation how do you know the boss did follow MOU? or for that matter the Fair Labor Standards act ? Without investigation how do we know the new guy wasn't following the proceedures? I have seen many supervisors unfamiliar with the SOP. I have seen bosses jumping up and down screaming at people, causing a hostel work environment, when the MOU said put it in writting. I have seen bosses deny employees union representation during disciplinary proceedures, a real no no. Of course I don't know what happened, neither do you or Ron. Undoubtedly, in any grievence, the investigation is part of the MOU, every MOU has requires this. So what is wrong with having the investigation to find out what happened? It is part of the contract. So I will ask again, Don't you think all parties should be held to a contract they entered into ? It is still a free country. If it bothers RockRon that much to work for a union company, he is free to "man up" and walk out the door forever.
Ever heard of right-to-work? In a right-to-work state, they can't force you to join a union, even if you work for a unionized employer. South Carolina is one, and the labor dep't told Boeing they can't build planes there, basically, because it's a right-to-work state.
In a forced-unionizm state, they can make you join a union to work at a particular place.
If you believe both parties should live up to an agreement, you should also feel that the new employee should follow the procedure the employer lays out.
In a forced-unionizm state, they can make you join a union to work at a particular place.
If you believe both parties should live up to an agreement, you should also feel that the new employee should follow the procedure the employer lays out.
You read the original post like a politician. He is ticked because there was a new employee who isn't doing his job, and complaining about not getting treated like he's got seniority when he doesn't have any. And when he is told he needs to do his job and do it correctly, the union files a grievance, claiming retribution, and they waste two days worth of time by pulling the other employees off work to figure out why the company is out to get him.
I remember my 11th grade English teacher telling a story that goes the other way. Her son wanted a summer job and got one folding boxes. They came in flat, he had to open it, fold the bottom flaps in, tape it, and put it on a conveyor.
After a half hour or so he got bored, so he decided to see how fast he could do them.
At lunch the union steward came to him and told him that they are to tape X number of boxes per hour, and no more.
His second hour, he taped more boxes than the entire crew's daily quota.
It was the only day he worked there.
After a half hour or so he got bored, so he decided to see how fast he could do them.
At lunch the union steward came to him and told him that they are to tape X number of boxes per hour, and no more.
His second hour, he taped more boxes than the entire crew's daily quota.
It was the only day he worked there.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Of course I know what a Right to Work state is. SC is one of many. In a Right to Work state no one can force you to join a union. In a Union Shop state no one can "force" you to join a union either. No one is going to "force" you to take a job at a union employeer. If you "choose" not to take a union job no one will hold it against you and you are "free" to head down the road looking for a nonunion job. No "force" all "free choice". No one is conscripted into a union job. Not in the US, we are free, no one has to work at a union job. You are misinformed, the Dept of Labor never said Boeing could not build planes in SC. The Dept of Labor said that Boeing retaliated against union employees in WA, in violation of the NLRA, and they need to make it right with the people in Washington state.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
The plot thickins, now RonRock is claiming they are Federal employees. That is interesting. Ron claims the employee is new ! All new federal employees, except those employeed at will, serve a 1 year probation. They can be fired at any time for any reason, or no reason at all, except the prohibited discrimination stuff. I wonder how it was the "New guy" made it a year before the boss figured out he was a goof off ?
lloyd in sc
Member
Spent 21 years facing down Marxist armies as an infantryman.
See no reason to pay dues to one...
See no reason to pay dues to one...
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I'd have to know more about the story. The milling story sounds a little bit cleaned up for the discussion. DOT's don't get grievances filed against them. The contractor does. So if the State inspector asked the Contractor to clean up a little more and he had sent his broom operator home already then the contractor may have gotten a grievance from one of his own guys. This is not the attitude that is normally prevelant on road construction crews. Its what happens 99 out of 100 times that counts.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
No one is going to recognize you for a job well done. This isn't youth baseball. You are on here bashing Unions, and come to find out you are riding the Federal Government gravy train. Enjoy your labor day, I'll be heading out of state so I can be ready for a 5:00 am start on my Union job. After roughly 16 hours I'll be done. Then the same through Saturday. No there won't be any 8 and skate federal hours for me. Wanna trade?
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