OT-Welder

[G6 at Snook, TX]

After reading the topic on cutting torches, it got me to thinking about welding machines. I assume that once I get the hang of welding after/during that class I will take I will need to get a welding rig.

Around here the received wisdom is Miller is the best made welder nowadays and that Lincoln is living on its reputation.

Question for you fellas: Should I go gas or electric? Should I go used and if so what brand and what to look for/avoid? Or is it better to get a new unit and know what you have? If new, what brand? FYI, whatever I buy I want one that will give me few headaches and work 99/100 that attempt to use it. What are a considered good prices for a used rig?

Thanks for the advice and opinions.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 16:42:01 08/18/10) After reading the topic on cutting torches, it got me to thinking about welding machines. I assume that once I get the hang of welding after/during that class I will take I will need to get a welding rig.

Around here the received wisdom is Miller is the best made welder nowadays and that Lincoln is living on its reputation.

Question for you fellas: Should I go gas or electric? Should I go used and if so what brand and what to look for/avoid? Or is it better to get a new unit and know what you have? If new, what brand? FYI, whatever I buy I want one that will give me few headaches and work 99/100 that attempt to use it. What are a considered good prices for a used rig?

Thanks for the advice and opinions.

For starters you can't beat an AC buzz box - cheap and will handle most of the common stick welding jobs you find around a farm. I've had my Lincoln AC-225 for well over a decade without a single problem. I keep thinking I'll get a wire feed unit for the lighter stuff taht the stick welder doesn't do well. But then I look at the price tag and decide I really don't need it....

And of course you will need a gas rig for cutting, heating, and bending steel (see referenced thread). Before I bought the Lincoln I also used mine for gas welding - it's a fun skill to learn but for knocking out simple steel welds the buzz box has it beat all to He!!

TOH

TOH

 

[Jim in Ma.]

TOH has it rite. I have a Lincoln 225 amp that I got about 40 years ago for $100 the only thing I have done to it is a new cord and plug about 5 years ago. Also have a torch set and a fair sized Mig welder.
I like them all and they each have a place in the shop. I think the old buzz-box still gets the most use.

 

[Bob Harvey]

I bought a used (barely) 225 A Miller 'buzz box' about 8 yrs. ago and it does all the welding I need. 'Back in the day' I was a TIG specialist and worked in the Cart racing system (now Indy). Was pretty good at it - could weld 2 matchbook thickness peices together (not bragging), and thought I was the meows behind until I met an older Scandehoovian guy at another shop and he could do it with Oxy/Acet. Old school=Kool! I've always wanted to buy another TIG rig, but, there is a guy (amazing fabricator) not far from me that does the TIG work for me for Nada (I had to show him I could work the equipment, and I have to admit I am a smidge less steady than in my yoot, he says "Yep , you can do it, but, we haven't got all day!!") Enjoy!!

 

[Bob Harvey]

Sorry, got so carried away in the good memory part, I forgot to say I paid $100 for the Miller - oops, brane phart.

 

[dont_know_nothing]

I prefer wire welding. Most of my welding has been done with a Miller Mig welder. I made many of trailers from/for, a 6" bumper pull tilt beds for garden tractors to a 36 foot flat bed goose neck trailers. And as I said ALL done with a Mig Welder. Not sure why some would say wire welders was for light stuff. I guess they hadn"t used them before. As I never had any come back for repairs on the welds or a lawsuit to sue me over a family members death...

But remember, wire welders use gas and you cannot weld well outdoors with them. Outdoor welding I use the stick welder.

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

For those who have mentioned the Lincoln or Miller Buzz Box, is that AC only or AC/DC?

Thanks for the comments so far.

 

[Anonymous-0]

You can get the Lincoln either way don't know bout the Miller,should be able to, think they are both the same company now, still have dad's Lincoln that he got in 63 has had heavy use, still use it bout every day, but nonthing built as good as now as they were in the 60ds.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 18:59:14 08/18/10)Not sure why some would say wire welders was for light stuff.

Actually what I said was "for the light stuff the stick welder doesn't do well" - e.g. sheet metal - at least not in my hands

TOH

 

[Bob Harvey]

TOH, I trained in a sheet metal shop that only had 'stick' welders on the 'benches'. 16 ga. was the standard, so ya learn real quick or ya make a mess -- I was young and lucky. Neither anymore!

 

[Jack L]

Keeping in tune with our older tractors I picked up a 1954 Hobart 250 amp welder, Pipeliners model. It's driven by a 35 hp Willys L engine It has a switch for changing polarity and 110 DCV for power tools. This is a smooth machine and makes anyone look good.

I'm very happy with the quality and it runs as smooth as our tractors.

<a href="http://s135.photobucket.com/albums/q121/JackL_06/?action=view&current=Welder2.jpg" target="_blank">

</a>

Jack

 

[Briar Hill Brittanys]

I picked up a AC 225 and a Hobart Handler 140. Found a great deal on Craigs List, he was getting a bigger MIG. The 225 works great on the heavier welding needs. The 140 MIG welds the snot out of tubing and lighter metal. I used to be able to weld sheet with stick, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. Still looking for a good deal on a gas set-up. Mark

 

[old]

For general farm repair a simple AC buzz box is just fine. Ya if you want to get fancy a mig/tig unit is nice but and that is the big thing do you or will you weld enough to be worth the big $$ for a unit that is worth owning. Me I have worked as a welder on and off for years and I still only have 2 welders. One is a simple Lincoln buzz box AC225 and the other a portable Engine drive unit which is DC but still only 225. I do also have a torch but that is more for cutting then any thing else. Now for a bit of back ground I have done mig welding and tig welding both steel and aluminum and all and at one time could weld a beer can. But any how do you plan to weld day in day or or as a hobby. If a hobby then save your $$ and get a simple buzz box. Or spend a lot and get a good machine do not go between or you will pay big at the end

 

[lha]

I also have the AC lincoln225 box welder and a gas cutter/brazer and a cheap wire welder.The wire machine was bought on a whim,I was at harbor freight,had a 20percent off coupon,and it was 89.99,that was 72.00and I figured it has to be worth that.Works good and is fairly easy to use,just another option.---lha

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 18:49:46 08/18/10) I bought a used (barely) 225 A Miller 'buzz box' about 8 yrs. ago and it does all the welding I need. 'Back in the day' I was a TIG specialist and worked in the Cart racing system (now Indy). Was pretty good at it - could weld 2 matchbook thickness peices together (not bragging), and thought I was the meows behind until I met an older Scandehoovian guy at another shop and he could do it with Oxy/Acet. Old school=Kool! I've always wanted to buy another TIG rig, but, there is a guy (amazing fabricator) not far from me that does the TIG work for me for Nada (I had to show him I could work the equipment, and I have to admit I am a smidge less steady than in my yoot, he says "Yep , you can do it, but, we haven't got all day!!") Enjoy!!

My first (but not last) Triumph TR4 was a castoff from a fella that had been campaigning it on the local SCCA club circuit. Like many that saw that service the aluminum casting on the transmission was cracked in several places and a big chunk of the bell housing was missing around the starter housing. At the time (1973) I was working for the Navy at their R&amp;D lab in Bethesda and the guy who sold me the TR put me in touch with one of the welders in the model shop who said he'd fix it for me. What an artist - effortlessly reformed the broken off starter housing with a torch and filler rod. After welding up the other cracks which he said were caused by sand in the casting he went all over the bell housing tapping with a chipping hammer finding all of the other spots where there was sand below the surface - opened them up with the torch to remove the sand and filled with more rod. IIRC he charged me $20 :!: Last I heard he had to retire on disabilty - too much welding flash and bad carpel tunnel

TOH

 

[don't_know_nothing]

Yep, Eyes getting old I guess, I did misread that... Sorry

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

Thanks for the advice so far.

What type of clothing and equipment is necessary to go with welding? I have an idea, but like N series parts not all things are equal. What type of brands should I look at and avoid?

 

[souNdguy]

if you like blue ( miller ).. but don't like the amount of green ($$$) it costs.. then go grey ( hobart).. miller owns hobart.

I have a stickmate xl 235AC

awesome HD machine. runs on 220 and can weld 100a continous duty cycle. for farm repairs.. 6011 is what I use mostly.. with some top dressing with 6013 .. usually 1/8 rods.. unless i go 5/32 for more amps.

get a set of high cuff /gauntlet cuff welding gloves, and get a welding jacket. I have one of the ones with leather sleaves and green fire retardent shirt material. lots cooler than the all leather one.

a green/fire retardent apron is nice too.. perhaps even a F/R welding blanket. need a chipping happer.. good wire prush some vice grips too. also stands to reason that you will need a 4.5" angle grinder

wear close toed shoes.. preferably solid top ones.. like boots. slag and spars find their way into many tennis shoes.. though they do make shoe chaps too.

long pants as well.

might want to get an auto darkening helmet.. though the cheap flip down work just fine too.

soundguy

 

[Wes (MI)]

Depends upon on what you want. If it was me, I would buy a Lincoln AC/DC arc welder 225 amps. It plugs into 220 outlets. The AC version typicaly runs around $350, add about another $200 for the AC/DC version. By going this route, you will be able to get a TIG setup for it down the road if you find the need. For DC run 1/8" E6010 for root and hot passes, and cap it with 3/32" E7018. They have a 30% duty cycle.

I would stray away from Hobart, even though they are made by Miller, not all parts are created equal. I run Millers at work, both stationary and portables. Don"t particularly care for them. Way too many options for heat range, type of rod, process, etc. I don"t like digital displays, they get expensive when they break.

Portables are a nice asset if you don"t already have a wall plug welder or a generator. It kills two birds with one stone. They can run both AD/DC, have a 220/230 plug (mid "90s models and newer only) and most are rated at 225amps. Portables range from $4000 for a basic gas engine drive (Lincoln or Miller), upto $16000 for a Lincoln SA-200 pipeliner. Most will have a 6k - 10k watt generator on them. The lower the watts on the machine, the smoother the arc should be. Lincolns and Millers are rated at 100% duty cycle while Hobarts are typicaly rated at 30%-40% duty cycle.

Do not buy your machine from Lowe"s, Home Depot, TSC, Farm & Fleet etc. They are not the same machines that you would buy from a welding supply house such as: Air Gas, Purity Cylinder Gases, Wilson Welding Supply etc.

I make my living as a certified pipe welder/steamfitter and have run both Lincolns and Millers. I prefer Lincolns.

-Wes

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

Wes,

As I noted in the initial post, the received wisdom among people in these parts is that Lincoln is not what it once was, particularly when you go gas or portable or both. Is that a fair assessment for the new(er) Lincoln's in your judgment?

Also, if Lowe's, TSC, and so on are not the place to buy a rig, is Grainger acceptable? I have been told and experienced the good side of Grainger; they sell good parts, but somewhat pricey. We have a local welding house, but their prices are pricey.

Thanks.

 

[36 Coupe]

Hobart and Miller are owned by Illinois Tool Works.270 bucks will buy a Lincoln 225 welder here.I doubt you will find any difference between a welding supplier and Home depot and Lowes Lincoln 225 welder.We get the same stories about JD lawn mowers and walmarts guns.I use a Miller 130 mig, my friend has a Hobart.Both do good work in their range.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 23:32:03 08/19/10) Wes,

As I noted in the initial post, the received wisdom among people in these parts is that Lincoln is not what it once was, particularly when you go gas or portable or both. Is that a fair assessment for the new(er) Lincoln's in your judgment?

Also, if Lowe's, TSC, and so on are not the place to buy a rig, is Grainger acceptable? I have been told and experienced the good side of Grainger; they sell good parts, but somewhat pricey. We have a local welding house, but their prices are pricey.

Thanks.

Grainger is my last choice for everything - simply too expensive if you are not a corporate account. For once I agree with 36coupe - I strongly suspect the only diffrence in the Lincon AC-225 at Lowes vis-a-vis a welding supply house is $100 or more out of your pocket. Mine was a Xmas gift and I'm pretty sure that's were it came from....

TOH

 

[36 Coupe]

Grainger is ok if you have a shop doing repair work.

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

With regards to the differences in product between Lowes, et. al. and, say, JD or Cub Cadet, I have heard of said differences on this forum and in the local community. Because of that experience, I tend to take Wes' warning about Lowes with more than a grain of salt. But I do not own a welder nor do I know much of anything about them so I am feeling my way through this. Seems to be a mixed series of answers.

As for Grainger, I have a corporate account with them through the Texas Farm Bureau. Between that and the ag exemption I get about 18% off of the listed prices. After reading Wes' remarks and what I mentioned earlier about JD, I wanted to make sure there was not a difference in quality between Lowes and Grainger.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 09:21:44 08/20/10) With regards to the differences in product between Lowes, et. al. and, say, JD or Cub Cadet, I have heard of said differences on this forum and in the local community. Because of that experience, I tend to take Wes' warning about Lowes with more than a grain of salt. But I do not own a welder nor do I know much of anything about them so I am feeling my way through this. Seems to be a mixed series of answers.

As for Grainger, I have a corporate account with them through the Texas Farm Bureau. Between that and the ag exemption I get about 18% off of the listed prices. After reading Wes' remarks and what I mentioned earlier about JD, I wanted to make sure there was not a difference in quality between Lowes and Grainger.

I believe most if not all of that dealer talk is BS. I know for a fact the Cub Cadet walk behind mower I bought at Lowes is exactly the same mower the CNH dealer was selling for $100 more. Both made by MTD with the exact same MTD model number on the data plate. If it really worries you go to Lowes and get the Lincoln model number off the data plate on the welder. Then go to Graingers and get the Lincoln model number off their welder. I got $5 says they are the same if they were made in the same model year.

TOH

 

[36 Coupe]

NOT SO

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

I already looked. That Lincoln buzz box was Model K1170 was $269 at Lowes; $394 at Home Depot and $471.50 at Grainger. Even if there is a difference in builds for what I do with it I will have to keep an eye on that Lowes model because of the deal they are offering.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 11:07:09 08/20/10) I already looked. That Lincoln buzz box was Model K1170 was $269 at Lowes; $394 at Home Depot and $471.50 at Grainger. Even if there is a difference in builds for what I do with it I will have to keep an eye on that Lowes model because of the deal they are offering.

Not sure exactly how long I've had mine but well over a decade. IIRC it was $189/$199 at that time!

TOH

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

TOH,

If you remember correctly, it sounds like that Lincoln at Lowes is a good deal compared to ten years ago and especially compared to the other two I mentioned.

 

[36 Coupe]

Home depot and Lowes were a buck apart on price last time I looked.Both will skin you on bolts.54 cents for a bolt I pay 23 cents for at my usual supplier.I paid 93 bucks delivered for my Lincoln 225 in 1965.They still sell for that used here.

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

Coupe,

This is what I found with a quick search of their sites:

http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hard...d=-1&amp;storeId=10051&amp;catalogId=10053


http://www.lowes.com/pd_98103-1703-.../pl__0__s?newSearch=true$Ntt=welder$y=10$x=18

 

[Wes (MI)]

As far as AC buzz boxes go, they are virtually the same between Lowe"s, Home Depot or a welding supply house. The big difference comes into place with wire feeders (MIG welders). If you were to have warranty needs/issues the welding supply house would be the better option.

I am NOT trying to back-pedel my opinion or statements.

I would still go to the welding supply house and buy the AC/DC version. You will be much happier, and be able to do a slighty broader range of welding, with a greater range of electrode types. By purchasing a welder with DC abilities, you can run a TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas) setup on it. TIG is primarily used for thin guage steel, stainless steel, and other "finer" work with far less heat and warpage.

As far as machine construction goes, nothing beats a machine built mid "90s or older. That goes for Lincoln and Miller. All of the older machines (stationary and portable gas or diesels) use copper windings and connections. Far superior for conductivity. In the mid "90s they started switching most machines over to aluminum windings. What new machines still have copper windings I am unsure of, but will probably cost more than what you want to spend.

A used portable depending on brand, rated amps and hours on the machine/condition of machine, on average will run you $500 - $5000. Yes it maybe as much as a new portable welder, but it depends upon the type of machine it is.

I understand and respect your point of views on dealer/supply house VS. the various "carries it all" stores. I understand the $$ price difference between the two and saving some of your cash in the process. I shop around when I can for the best prices as well. BUT if you have questions or concerns about the machine or related items, all that sales associate will tell you is "I"m not sure" or read you what ever is printed on the package. Your questions will still be un-answered.

By purchasing your items through a local supply house/dealer, and continuing to go back as a repeat customer, your cost of items will gradually go down. I live in a small-mid sized town. Not nearly as big as Detroit or Lansing, But at the two welding supply houses I frequent, the steel supply shop, and the industrial fastner shop, EVERY one knows me by name, and I know them by name. Because of this, I get contractor or "their cost" pricing for most of the items I purchase. And this was BEFORE I got into the trade.

All questions are answered with everyone"s personal experiences and preferences. Draw your own conclusions and opions, that"s your right. Mine differs from others. This post is not meant to step on anyone"s toes or bash them.

Sorry for the long post.

-Wes

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

Wes,

I appreciate you comments. I had planned on stopping by the local welding shop tomorrow to ask some questions and get some prices.

Thanks.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 21:34:07 08/20/10) As far as AC buzz boxes go, they are virtually the same between Lowe"s, Home Depot or a welding supply house. The big difference comes into place with wire feeders (MIG welders). If you were to have warranty needs/issues the welding supply house would be the better option.

I am NOT trying to back-pedel my opinion or statements.

I would still go to the welding supply house and buy the AC/DC version. You will be much happier, and be able to do a slighty broader range of welding, with a greater range of electrode types. By purchasing a welder with DC abilities, you can run a TIG (Tungsten Inert Gas) setup on it. TIG is primarily used for thin guage steel, stainless steel, and other "finer" work with far less heat and warpage.

As far as machine construction goes, nothing beats a machine built mid "90s or older. That goes for Lincoln and Miller. All of the older machines (stationary and portable gas or diesels) use copper windings and connections. Far superior for conductivity. In the mid "90s they started switching most machines over to aluminum windings. What new machines still have copper windings I am unsure of, but will probably cost more than what you want to spend.

A used portable depending on brand, rated amps and hours on the machine/condition of machine, on average will run you $500 - $5000. Yes it maybe as much as a new portable welder, but it depends upon the type of machine it is.

I understand and respect your point of views on dealer/supply house VS. the various "carries it all" stores. I understand the $$ price difference between the two and saving some of your cash in the process. I shop around when I can for the best prices as well. BUT if you have questions or concerns about the machine or related items, all that sales associate will tell you is "I"m not sure" or read you what ever is printed on the package. Your questions will still be un-answered.

By purchasing your items through a local supply house/dealer, and continuing to go back as a repeat customer, your cost of items will gradually go down. I live in a small-mid sized town. Not nearly as big as Detroit or Lansing, But at the two welding supply houses I frequent, the steel supply shop, and the industrial fastner shop, EVERY one knows me by name, and I know them by name. Because of this, I get contractor or "their cost" pricing for most of the items I purchase. And this was BEFORE I got into the trade.

All questions are answered with everyone"s personal experiences and preferences. Draw your own conclusions and opions, that"s your right. Mine differs from others. This post is not meant to step on anyone"s toes or bash them.

Sorry for the long post.

-Wes

Good morning Wes,

Thanks for the thoughtful followup - I didn't find it overly long at all. I certainly wasn't trying to bash you or impune your expertise or experience when I expressed my opinion that you would get the same low end buzz box (AC-225) at Lowes that you would get at a supply house. If it came across that way I apologize - my BS comment was not addressed at you- rather to this idea, unfounded in my opinion, that a model LA-xyz sold by a JD dealer is different and better than a model LA-xyz sold by Lowes.

I've worked in and around the ship building world and I've learned what it means to be a certified pipe/steam fitter - I have tremendous respect for those skills and the knowledge and experience that goes with it. I take your comments about machines made in the last 15 years as accurate - the last time I browsed the Lincoln site (been a while) I know they made a big deal out of their use of copper windings in their entire product line. They also made a big deal about their people and assembly process - wonder if that still holds true.

I too deal with a number of trade suppliers (and not a tradesman) and they do indeed treat you well and provide assistance you can't get from the box boy at Lowes or HD. Unfortunately I haven't fallen into the prefered customer category with any of them yet. My purchasing choices are driven in large part by my somewhat modest budget. I like fine tools and equipment and I much prefer to buy quality but always at the best price so I shop around when I can. That means comparing apples to apples and not some other fruit. The most difficult part for me is controlling my inevitable urge to go "just one more step up" when it's not a step I need to make - and sometimes that means stopping at Lowes.

Regards,

TOH

 

[Wes (MI)]

TOH,

I took no offense, and meant none to anyone. I'm back to working 70 some hours a week and get edgy(sp). So, I too am sorry for any miss-interpretation.

G6,

When I was growing up, I learned on a Lincoln AC buzz box. Got into High School and started using DC machines. Worlds of difference. I rarely ever use AC for anything anymore.

If you go MIG (wire welder) do stay away from the big box stores. It may be a Lincoln or a Hobart or any specific power tool, but what alot of companies do is to make a 'consumer' version of their 'industrial' version, to sell at a lower cost to the average, once in awhile user. I've had several talks about this with sales guys at weld supply houses. It is something to ask them about.

While you are taking your class, ask your instructor if he/she can demonstrate the various polarities (AC/DC+/DC-) and their uses if they don't already do that as part of the course. They'll be able to give you the ups and downs of all three, and make your purchase accordingly.

http://www.mylincolnelectric.com
http://www.millerwelds.com

-Wes

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

Wes,

Thanks for the continued pointers. I suspect by the time I am done with this course this fall I will get a good education on all three--plus some others. In addition to arc welding we are supposed to learn the basics in TIG and MIG welding as well.

I am looking forward to it.

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

BTW,

I stopped by the two welding shops in town, one Lincoln and one Miller, and the Miller shop which sells Lincolns too gave me the line about buying from a dealer. The Lincoln dealer, who only sells Lincoln, told me that in the case of the low end buzz box AC-225, that the one he sold or the ones that Lowes sold were all the same, but once you go up the ladder that calculus changes. If going with the buzz box he suggest that I go on price alone since they are all apples. I appreciated his honesty.

I also found out around here that it is wiser to buy your cylinders and have them refilled if you plan on keeping them for a long time. I also found out that Victor torches are made in China or the U.S.--the difference being $100. I buy US when the time comes. (about $275) They all had the clothes, hoods, and so forth.

 

[Wes (MI)]

G6,

I"m glad I am able to help. If you have more specific questions regarding machines, please feel free to ask.

-Wes