OT-- Zero Turn Mowers

[G6 at Snook, TX]

After reading the back and forth regarding Cub Cadet. It got me to thinking about zero turn mowers. There seem to be about one dozen good brands out there, but which ones are better than the rest. I mow about 1-1/2 acres mostly flat about once a week. I would like the mower to last 15 years give or take.

Specifically, what do you think about SCAG, Snapper, JD, or others? Those friends of mine who have them absolutely love them though they all have different brands. FYI- on things like this I do not buy from the box store.

Thanks.

NDG

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 14:36:47 08/09/08) After reading the back and forth regarding Cub Cadet. It got me to thinking about zero turn mowers. There seem to be about one dozen good brands out there, but which ones are better than the rest. I mow about 1-1/2 acres mostly flat about once a week. I would like the mower to last 15 years give or take.

Specifically, what do you think about SCAG, Snapper, JD, or others? Those friends of mine who have them absolutely love them though they all have different brands. FYI- on things like this I do not buy from the box store.

Thanks.

NDG

I can't answer your questions, but I do have some thoughts that fit pretty well here.

The society that the N tractors were built in was a renewable society, that is why we still have them and are able to still use them. As a rule every wearing part on an N tractor is replacable.

Fast forward a few decades.

We now live in a disposable scociety, and our economy is based on it.

Everything that we now buy is engieered to last a limited time, be disposed of, or recycled, and a new one sold.

Cars don't even last 15 years anymore (as a rule).

That is not part of the current "plan".

I'll try to hush now..... :roll: :lol:

 

[Anonymous-0]

My neighbor has a Grasshopper that I really like. The deck flips up vertically and you can change the blades while sitting in a chair instead of crawling under the mower while on ramps. When you think of the number of times you would sharpen the blades in 15 years this would be important to me.

 

[Osterbur]

Check out Badboy mowers. Built like a tank.
Will outlast you!

GL
Lynn

 

[Anonymous-0]

I think you get what you pay for. I had a JD 317 for 21 years (48 inch deck) and sold it for more than half of what I paid for it. I now have a Kubota diesel 22 HP with a 5 foot deck and mow about half of my 6 or 7 acres with it and roto-till app. 1/2 acre garden.. I have had it 8 years, well over 1000 hours on it and never been to the shop. Biggest problem is changing blades. Yes, I paid $8000 (used with deck and tiller) but I expect it to be a 20 year + machine.
I wish I had one like the Grasshopper and could change blades easier but then I couldn't roto-till. I strongly recommend the diesels if you can afford it.

 

[Hobo,NC]

Cadit would b a nice choice,,, mit make sure yer Tetanus vaccination is up to date :roll:

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

:lol:

 

[John730D]

I tried a lot of different ones before I bought. I ended up with an EXMARK. Check them out, really good machines and mowing quality is great. Many of the others would windrow grass but the EXMARK's blades turn 1 1/2 times the engine speed and do a really good job of chopping up the grass and speading it out. I had a JD front mount before and it would not spread the clippings out as good. I have to mow every week and sometimes the grass just got a little high for the others. Just did'nt look nice after mowing. I take pride in the way my yard looks so this was important to me.

 

[Roy (NC)]

I have a Cub Cadet zero turn that I bought about a year ago. I mow about 3 acres every week.

Does a beautiful job and doesn't take as long to mow as a conventional mower. Z is definitely the way to go.

The only mechanical problem I've had with it is that it is great for a flat lawn. I tried mowing some grass in a old garden spot which was not quite level and the front wheels are so small the tire popped off when I hit a rut.

I've had this happen three times. The front wheels are too small. The other thing is a topic that was on the forum a couple of nights ago.

Since it was new I wanted to keep it looking good, so I pressure washed it on the general cycle. Took the paint right off the mower deck, and there was rust underneath.

Roy

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

I have seen a lot of local yard mowers use SCAG. I wonder how good their cut is and their durability. Do any of you know about them?

As for Badboy mowers I noticed them at dealer in Brenham TX-- home of Blue Bell. They look like they were built like a Mack Truck, the caterpillar motor was nice, but man is it pricey.

I have an LT 1046 Cub Cadet Lawn Tractor and there have been some things maintenance wise I have noticed on it that I do not like. It is not easy to work on and you better have a lift or ramps to get the thing up off the ground to work on the blades; the belts sometimes slip, and I am not keen on running the motor wide open to keep the belts from jumping off the track. I am not partial to them, but I bought it on their old reputation.

Thanks for your comments-- keep them coming.

NDG

 

[Ross Pugh(NC)]

If you pay $4000. for one that lasts 15 years with no maintenance costs or upkeep (very doubtful that will happen), you will spendabout $267. a year for the mowing, not the cost of the fuel used and your time spent mowing. How much would it cost to hire a professional lawn service to do your 1 1/2 acre mowing for a year. I am considering selling my mowers and hiring it done next year. I know I can't justify buying another mower, weed trimmer, edger, etc.

 

[Anonymous-0]

got to agree w comment about things built to be replaced instead of repaired, it's all money driven, I cut the 5 around the home each week in the summer and 10 every other week, I use a Bunton BZT 33hp-10 72inch cut it's a monster of a machine electric deck electric clutch horn lights liguid cooled keeps pastures looking like a golf course,had a Ferris before was good but was a toy compared to the bunton. Now for the down sides: If youre not mechanically gifted don't get all the bells and whistles, get the manual deck lift, the manual clutch engagement, I see alot of the lawn guys using the exmarks they probably know best,whatever you have get to know it well, (before) it gives you trouble

 

[Hobo,NC]

I spec what you need to do is weigh the difference tween a home owners version and a commercial version
1) deck,,, a 60 inch deck is nice, down side if the ground is unlevel it does not leave as nice a cut as the smaller deck,,, the faster the blade tip speed the better,,, I don't care much for a stamped steel deck,,, shows how cheap its made,,, I have a hydraulic lift (nice) but not needed,,, so a tilt deck is nice,,, so you sharpen the blades a couple times a year,,, in your case probably one time,,, I could see were a pro mow'n man would like it,,, not me 2 times a year I will figger out how to git the blades off but this option was not offered when i was look'n,,, it mite mean the rest of the mower is user friendly

2) seat,,, a suspension seat is hard to beat,,, if yer yard is smooth no suspension seat needed

3) front axle,,, it needs to b a solid axle,,, no pivot are suspension,,, either will affect the cut on uneven ground

4) probably the most important,,, the drive train,,, independent hydraulic motors for each wheel,,, all commercial mowers are set up that way far as I know :wink: :wink:

"bout all the home owners models are zacly the same cept form the paint,,, My cadit even tho I have a paint problem is still 4 times better than enny elchepo mower out their,,, it did not live a EZ life till I got a ZRT mower,,, one thang the ZRT mower does is use haft the gas the cadit does,,, should its a 60" cut and runs twice as fast so gits the job done in 1/3 of the time,,, down side is the cut of the ZRT will never match the cadit,,, but with 4 acres I don't worry about whats way out their its what i see rite around the house,,,,, Cadit gits that job

I looked rite hard at a Toro,,, wish i had brought one,,, priced a little 2 hige,, a good mower for sure

 

[rodgernbama]

There was an exmark quest display at an old iron show I went to today. The quest is the homeowners mower they started making. It has a 11 gauge deck(same as the commercial one) that is welded together(not stamped). The one I looked at was a 48" cut with a 22hp B&S engine. It has a three year warranty. They are around $4000.00 but if I was buying a new mower today I"d really consider this mower.

 

[Red1]

I've a snapper, 48",
Came on here a month or so ago complaining about the way it dispursed the grass, all clumpy ...leaves the lawn looking unsightly. Neighbor has a diesel 72" snapper. She has had the same problem....but probably the reason is all the moisture and we haven't had the good hot windy days to completely dry out the grass.
But I'm convinced the stamped decks...rounded corners, will clean out quicker than the steel upper, vertical contoured decks. Those get grass trrapped in the corners and buildup until it falls out onto the blades, which send out the clumps.
Get a stamped deck, rounded inside corners...my dixon had one and it was far superior in cut quality, whether the grass was tall, wet....whatever.

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

Is Dixon now out of business? They used to be one that I remember from years gone by and one that was pretty good.

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 00:44:06 08/10/08) If you pay $4000. for one that lasts 15 years with no maintenance costs or upkeep (very doubtful that will happen), you will spendabout $267. a year for the mowing, not the cost of the fuel used and your time spent mowing. How much would it cost to hire a professional lawn service to do your 1 1/2 acre mowing for a year. I am considering selling my mowers and hiring it done next year. I know I can't justify buying another mower, weed trimmer, edger, etc.

Have you had yer yard priced,,, round here no kid will mow it fer a Pepsi cola enny more,,, 267 mite git my yard mowed one time

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

Two things: One, let me change my last question regarding Dixon. I see that they are still in business, but do they make a quality product like they evidently did years ago?

Two, as far as having my grass mowed by a landscape company that is not really something I want to pay for. For a yard my size they would charge $50 dollars a time and in this part of Texas the growing season last from about April 1 to until about October 15 or sometimes later. My yard needs mowing once a week, and simply, I enjoy mowing my yard.

 

[Hobo,NC]

We are close on the grow'n season,,, If it rains much mine needs it 2 times a week,,, if I don't its like bail'n hay,,, I do mow some of it 2 times a week,,, the Toro I demoed took on all comers,,, unlike my Gravely witch don't take a like'n to wet grass,,, I have mowed down my corn with the Gravely,,, I did go over what i had bush hogged with the N with it yesterday,,, The Dixon's I have seen were chain drive,, YUK!,,, If it gits to wet here i can not use the ZRT,,, its heavy and tracks the yard,,, I am in a bottom,,, my uncle next to me on the hill does not have this problem,,, he has a Woods, Gravely, crafsman, ZRT a lot of cadits 2 are more,,, A little IHC tractor with 2 Finnish mowers,,, one set low and one high for different places on the plantation,,, a JD 1010 with a bush hog and a 52 N with a bush hog,,,they mow every day sept Sunday,,, Now his place looks like it would make the cover of best keep yards,,, its a wonder they have not run me off He he,,, Folks call me and tell me they can not git up with him,,, No you are not if the suns shin'n they are werk'n in the yard,,, He and his wife are 80 and live in the yard,,, they are workaholics,,, I took a lap around his place late yesterday,,, yard needed mow'n,,, I mite better go check on them,,, I have mowed 4 acers of grass all my life,,, don't know any different,,, at one time pushed it all,,, Hope you git a nice piece,,, git what you want and enjoy it,, git a demo unit and try it out,,, ZRT's are nice but have their downfalls,,, It took me a few years to git my wife to even sit on one,,, once she got the handle of it (takes awhile for everyone) she's ell on wheels,,, BTW don't let enny one whos never drove one drive it less its in a wide open field and at idle,,, you can knock down some neat manure with one,,, My uncle had chicken chit spred over his yard this spring,,, takes alot of cut'n,,, he even vacuums up the clip'ns,,, mine lay were they fall

 

[Hobo,NC]

That's funny,,, I did not type in some neat manure,,, it changed it automatically,,,, try it one more time neat chit

 

[Dave 2N]

Been researching this since last winter because I was considering getting a ZT. After all the looking and talking was over, I concluded that either exMark or SCAG were the best for me. Comparable models but the SCAG is $500.00 cheaper. Great dealer and great service and he handles both. Wouldn't give me an answer as to which one he thought was better until I had a "man-to-man" discussion with him at our tractor club meeting. His answer: SCAG.

HOWSOMEVER---I haven't done a thing about getting one yet because I'm having trouble convincing myself that I need to spend $5000.00 just to cut my mowing time by 45 minutes. Have a Kubota TG1860G that I think I'm going to have a couple of things done to at the dealer's over the winter and I'm sure it won't cost no $5000.00. It's been a great machine BUT if it "went south" on me today, I would buy the SCAG.

 

[Dave 2N]

Been researching this since last winter because I was considering getting a ZT. After all the looking and talking was over, I concluded that either exMark or SCAG were the best for me. Comparable models but the SCAG is $500.00 cheaper. Great dealer and great service and he handles both. Wouldn't give me an answer as to which one he thought was better until I had a "man-to-man" discussion with him at our tractor club meeting. His answer: SCAG.

HOWSOMEVER---I haven't done a thing about getting one yet because I'm having trouble convincing myself that I need to spend $5000.00 just to cut my mowing time by 45 minutes. Have a Kubota TG1860G that I think I'm going to have a couple of things done to at the dealer's over the winter and I'm sure it won't cost no $5000.00. It's been a great machine BUT if it "went south" on me today, I would buy the SCAG.

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 17:31:49 08/10/08) Been researching this since last winter because I was considering getting a ZT. After all the looking and talking was over, I concluded that either exMark or SCAG were the best for me. Comparable models but the SCAG is $500.00 cheaper. Great dealer and great service and he handles both. Wouldn't give me an answer as to which one he thought was better until I had a "man-to-man" discussion with him at our tractor club meeting. His answer: SCAG.

HOWSOMEVER---I haven't done a thing about getting one yet because I'm having trouble convincing myself that I need to spend $5000.00 just to cut my mowing time by 45 minutes. Have a Kubota TG1860G that I think I'm going to have a couple of things done to at the dealer's over the winter and I'm sure it won't cost no $5000.00. It's been a great machine BUT if it "went south" on me today, I would buy the SCAG.

Only pic I can find of a SCAG you sit behind the deck rite far,,, not for me,,, tyred one and got covered with to much fly'n chit,,, may-b they all are not like that

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 14:47:55 08/10/08)

(quoted from post at 17:31:49 08/10/08) Been researching this since last winter because I was considering getting a ZT. After all the looking and talking was over, I concluded that either exMark or SCAG were the best for me. Comparable models but the SCAG is $500.00 cheaper. Great dealer and great service and he handles both. Wouldn't give me an answer as to which one he thought was better until I had a "man-to-man" discussion with him at our tractor club meeting. His answer: SCAG.

HOWSOMEVER---I haven't done a thing about getting one yet because I'm having trouble convincing myself that I need to spend $5000.00 just to cut my mowing time by 45 minutes. Have a Kubota TG1860G that I think I'm going to have a couple of things done to at the dealer's over the winter and I'm sure it won't cost no $5000.00. It's been a great machine BUT if it "went south" on me today, I would buy the SCAG.

Only pic I can find of a SCAG you sit behind the deck rite far,,, not for me,,, tyred one and got covered with to much fly'n chit,,, may-b they all are not like that

http://www.scag.com/zeroturns.html

 

[Phil9N3667]

Here"s my two cents worth. I bought a Husqvarna CZ4817 in October of "03 and have 155 hours on it so far. For a 48" cut in good grass 3 1/2- 5" high its not bad. The 17HP Kohler goes right on, but if its damp or taller,ya better have good sharp blades. Sometimes I"d like something with a wider cut and more power, but then I couldn"t get it in between my shop doors. I"ve put two sets of blades on it and ready for the next set (Gator style blades work nice). Its not bad on gas either, less than a gallon an hour in good grass. I cut approximately 1.9-2.1 acres depending on how good the farmer we rent to cut with the the bush hog. One other thing- the cup holder and my OLD Snap-On huggie work GOOD together holding my Silver Bullets in place (critical on hot days)!!

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 18:35:07 08/10/08) Sometimes I"d like something with a wider cut and more power, but then I couldn"t get it in between my shop doors.

Sounds to me like you may need a little concrete 'tween yer shop doors.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 15:26:39 08/09/08)
Cadit would b a nice choice,,, mit make sure yer Tetanus vaccination is up to date :roll:

Hobo, that proves just what I was thinkin! Everyman will brag about whatever he bought, because if not he is saying he made a mistake......so, throw testimonials in the trash!!!!

Hobo, I know yours was tongue in cheek, but up above there are guys who respectively love their JD, Grasshopper, Snapper, Exmark, SCAAG, whatever! Whatever the man owns.

Oh, and by the way it doesn't matter whether the blade turns at engine speed , 1 1/2X or 2X engine speed.........they are government regulated (FED reg) to a maximum blade tip speed of 19,000 FPM (max rock slinging speed of 215MPH).

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 19:06:41 08/10/08) Everyman will brag about whatever he bought, because if not he is saying he made a mistake......so, throw testimonials in the trash!!!!

As a rule maybe....

I have a Wally World rider, that I bought used $200, it would be nice if the front tires held air over 24 hours, it will cut grass, but one needs to wear a nuisance mask (I don't), I need to weld one of the deck wheels back on where it was only half welded on to start with.

I usually just make the Ole Lady's freeloading sons use a cheap Wally World push mower on it.

They would get killed with the rider.

$5000 for a lawnmower is NOT in my vocabulary.

$2500 8N and a bush hog are.

I'm liable at any time to plow it all up, and take the blade and scrape it off.

Now let me try to take you back in time a bit.

My Dad came out of WWII, and bought this 40 acres (in desperation it is only around 20 now, but that is my fault in a medical way)

He and my Grandads built the house in 1948, the frame is heart pine timber cut off the place, and my Mom, Dad, and my Dad's Dad, and Mom moved in, the same year that electricity was put down this road.

I wasn't born till '56.

Growing up, in my younger days, I never knew of folks having grass in the yard, if a sprig came up it was hoed out pretty quickly.

There were many controlled areas that were planted with flowers, thrift, and the such, but grass was not allowed to be in the yard, that was a disgrace.

All of the areas without grass were swept regularly with a bresh broom, made of forked tree branches, tied together for a handle.

Yall Bear With Me, I am Going To Try To Ramble On A Bit More....

I did go to Nursery School in town, and they did have grass on the playground, and swings, and slides and the such.

They also had a push type reel mower (no engine), for years I kept the grass cut with it, cause I wanted to, and it amazed me, but they even paid me too.

When I was around 10 or 12 years old, I got this business plan in my head, I would call up "The Trading Post" our local radio station sell, swap, trade, give away, program on the station, and I would advertise to buy junk lawnmowers.

I would handle the phones and offers all week, and then on Saturday, Dad, or Mom would take me around to make the purchases.

I had a nice junkyard of parts before long and was selling fixed mowers.

I did really good at that for a kid.

I ended up for free a reel type mower, self propelled, and had a 5hp horizontal shaft engine, I was in high cotton with that.

Ell don't read it, ifn it's too long...

 

[Ross Pugh(NC)]

Hobo, I didn't say you could get it done for $267. That is just the mower investment, alone, nothing else. Add the oil changes, grease, fuel, labor, and repairs, to that price. Se habla.

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

As this topic has unfolded I have been thinking along the same lines as JMOR. There seems to be no consensus on one of the brands standing above the others and it is just a preference matter. They all are about the same. Except for the Cub Cadet. I am partial to several mower shops in our area and that likely means it will be a JD, SCAG, or Snapper.

Thanks for the comments.

NDG

 

[OKDAD]

Well JMOR....I am not too proud to say I probably made a mistake. On our 5 acres I now mow about 2.5a and brush hog the rest. The little 38" JD LX176 was taking way too long so last year went shopping for a 50" ZTR. The neighbor is the local Dixon dealer. Went down to his place and his "deal" was a 48" demo for about $5,500. Very nice mower but pricey.

Off to the local Home Depot and viola...a 50" Toro Z5000 w/21hp Kohler for $2800. On top of that open a charge account, use their money for 12 months free and they would knock off another $200. Deal!

Had this little guy for 16 months now and here is a summary:

First Mowing Season-
1st month: Right wheel motor leaks. Sealed unit. Quits leaking after second use. Probably overfilled right? Mows great.

2nd month: Change oil and filter. Engine leaks oil for weeks from what appears to be lower main seal then stops? Never shows low on dip stick.
Right front tire leaks. Patch it. Keeps leaking. Slime both front tires.

Mows for rest of season with no problems.

Second Mowing Season-
1st Month: Muffler breaks. Welder fixes this design flaw. Mows great.

3rd Month: Idler pulley bolt breaks. Purchase redesigned idler assembly for $20.

4th Month (now): Right drive motor slows after ~10 minutes of use. Makes ugly sounds and only mows in circles. Goes away after cooling. Plan to take it in for warranty repair tomorrow. We will see how that goes.

Bottom line....you get what you pay for. I had the JD for 14 years and only had to have the mower deck serviced (under warranty) once! This Toro looks to be a coming trainwreck. If so I will be shopping for a better mower. I gambled and I think I lost.

Ike - The Slowest Tractor Mechanic in America

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 20:23:00 08/10/08)
Had this little guy for 16 months now and here is a summary:

Bottom line....you get what you pay for. I had the JD for 14 years and only had to have the mower deck serviced (under warranty) once!

I have a serious issue with that perspective.

The one that lasted 14 years was built 14 years ago for goodness sake.

The 16 month old one was built 16 months ago.

One Ell ofa time perspective there.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[JMOR]

This may have been hashed out before, don't know, but I know the daughter of a JD dealer and according to her, "dad said that JD mowers sold thru other stores are NOT the same as those sold thru JD dealers, either in machinery or price".
I can't prove or disprove that & don't want to start a rumor......maybe someone has shopped enough to say with certainty.

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

As for the difference between dealer and box store I have heard the same thing about Cub Cadet as you mention about JD. I also had the local JD dealer say the same thing to me regarding quality and durability of their models verses those found at the box store.

 

[MR in MN]

Bought a Bad Boy mower this spring at TCS, great mower, easy access to every thing, very well and heavily built. Cut my mowing time down by 40%.

 

[jon]

All good suggestions but with the price of gas, not to mention the time & aggravation, get something with a local service & parts dept.
It sux having to drive 50+ miles one way for parts or have to wait for an order of a $10 part.
Wonder why I know this.......

 

[Lanexa Speedway]

I bought one two seasons ago. Will never go back to mowing without a zero turn.

What I found is that you can find a commercial model (many options) in the [u:34fb6a91f0][b:34fb6a91f0]off-season[/b:34fb6a91f0][/u:34fb6a91f0] for $2500 to $4500, with well under 1000 hours. Usually 2 to 3 years old. Got to look the machine over carefully and ride it, and try to find one with an owner that takes good records. But there are many out there, and I see 'em quite often on business sell outs also. Just about any commercial unit out there will last forever for a homeowner mowing a couple acres a week. These really fit the demographic of most of us.....I say the "I want one built right, NOT disposable" kind of guy.

Note: The machines sold and Lowes and Home Depot (and a few other retail stores) are NOT commercial units. Just look at the tin, stamped decks, etc. They are meant for 1 acre or less homeowners, and are disposable.

Brands. Two I could recommend would be Hustler and Dixie Chopper. I have friends that have told me Exmark and the newer Kubota stuff are really good as well.

KL

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 00:23:00 08/11/08) Well JMOR....I am not too proud to say I probably made a mistake. On our 5 acres I now mow about 2.5a and brush hog the rest. The little 38" JD LX176 was taking way too long so last year went shopping for a 50" ZTR. The neighbor is the local Dixon dealer. Went down to his place and his "deal" was a 48" demo for about $5,500. Very nice mower but pricey.

Off to the local Home Depot and viola...a 50" Toro Z5000 w/21hp Kohler for $2800. On top of that open a charge account, use their money for 12 months free and they would knock off another $200. Deal!

Had this little guy for 16 months now and here is a summary:

First Mowing Season-
1st month: Right wheel motor leaks. Sealed unit. Quits leaking after second use. Probably overfilled right? Mows great.

2nd month: Change oil and filter. Engine leaks oil for weeks from what appears to be lower main seal then stops? Never shows low on dip stick.
Right front tire leaks. Patch it. Keeps leaking. Slime both front tires.

Mows for rest of season with no problems.

Second Mowing Season-
1st Month: Muffler breaks. Welder fixes this design flaw. Mows great.

3rd Month: Idler pulley bolt breaks. Purchase redesigned idler assembly for $20.

4th Month (now): Right drive motor slows after ~10 minutes of use. Makes ugly sounds and only mows in circles. Goes away after cooling. Plan to take it in for warranty repair tomorrow. We will see how that goes.

Bottom line....you get what you pay for. I had the JD for 14 years and only had to have the mower deck serviced (under warranty) once! This Toro looks to be a coming trainwreck. If so I will be shopping for a better mower. I gambled and I think I lost.

Ike - The Slowest Tractor Mechanic in America

I cam with end a snatch hare of going for the kill and git a $10k Bota desiel,,, after the first year of use wif my 260Z Gravely I had 40 hr. on it,,, it cut like chit,,, went back to the dealer,,, when i brought the Grav he had a demo with 40 hr. on it zackly like the new'n i brought for $400 less,,, i went new,,, I still had that bota on my mine but he would not do a swap of enny kind,,, said he would if it i had brought the bota,,, well I learned a demo ain't worth 400 less than a new'n when the used 1 year old would not even bring up enny kind of a trading price,,, enny ways I also threw the years have learned to git the manual out and set the deck up,,, do you know thay are not set up rite on the show room floor,,, I set the deck up and locked the front axle and am now very pleased with the grav. i would not leave the dealer with a new'n less I got the book out and a rule'er and check that the deck is set to spec,,, make'em set it while i watched,,, I wore the wheels slap out on the cadit deck fer i realized the deck was out that bad,,, all 4 wheels,,, I always had problems ware'n out the rear wheels till I set the deck up by the book,,, have not had to replace a deck wheel in years since,,, I also think the belt idler on the decks are made to fail,,, just fer the warranty runs out or just B-4,,, they always have a improved sum'n nutter,,, makes you wounder how long these damm things have been into production,,, did we just lay down the slang-blade,,, yep the Grav had a plastic idler,,, went out first year